Crown

In view of the prices, 911S or 4S makes sense in Porsche's brand.  I still believe regular 911S will do very well and no others will beat,  however going down to TTS is another sector.  The car obviously is wonderful, but paying that much money makes no sense to me when I can add a bit more for a McLaren.....  Yes flashy perhaps sold me 30% of the car, the brand McLaren really puts me 50% of buying this car, rest 20% is its tech figures, which TTS does very well too.....   I think if Porsche had created a SUV brand which separates from Porsche will perhaps do some justification on their Sports car buyers....  range rover created a new line of range rover/ évoque/ range rover sport selling more numbers with their new brand, so they can create a new brand for a different sector of cars..... That's what I hope Porsche should do...... 

huangester:

In view of the prices, 911S or 4S makes sense in Porsche's brand.  I still believe regular 911S will do very well and no others will beat,  however going down to TTS is another sector.  The car obviously is wonderful, but paying that much money makes no sense to me when I can add a bit more for a McLaren.....  Yes flashy perhaps sold me 30% of the car, the brand McLaren really puts me 50% of buying this car, rest 20% is its tech figures, which TTS does very well too.....   I think if Porsche had created a SUV brand which separates from Porsche will perhaps do some justification on their Sports car buyers....  range rover created a new line of range rover/ évoque/ range rover sport selling more numbers with their new brand, so they can create a new brand for a different sector of cars..... That's what I hope Porsche should do...... 

I actually feel the opposite. I can't find any reason to buy any 991 at these prices unless you're a diehard 911 fan or absolutely need low-key.

A nice 991 C2S Coupe with modest spec is $135K. Add the power package and it's $150K. For that price I can buy an R8 V10. For $160K you can get a nice, used LP560 or practically new LP550-2. For $170-180K you can find a 12C. You could also find a 997.2 Turbo S or any 997 GT car. F430/Spider for sure. Maybe a Scuderia if you look hard enough.

I really can't think of any reason other than those 2 that you'd want a 991. They just aren't worth it unless you are going for a GT3, being that it's somewhat unique in what it does.

I think that 650S offers almost supercar performance for acceptable price tag.

But... What I did not like on my MP4-12C test drive is according to what Mike wrote in this thread again very apparent-big turbo lag. I also hate the doors and while I really think that 650S is looking pretty good I still would not consider one for myself. Thi si the car that I hugely respect just, somehow I can not fall in love with it.

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Whoopsy:

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

KresoF1:

I think that 650S offers almost supercar performance for acceptable price tag.

But... What I did not like on my MP4-12C test drive is according to what Mike wrote in this thread again very apparent-big turbo lag. I also hate the doors and while I really think that 650S is looking pretty good I still would not consider one for myself. Thi si the car that I hugely respect just, somehow I can not fall in love with it.

big turbo lag? did you drive a newer one? my spider has a tiny tiny fraction of the lag that my old 997TT had. almost like an NA car. 

2011 CTT, 2013 12C Spider, 2013 A5 cab, 2014 4Runner Trail Edition

AAHTT:

KresoF1:

I think that 650S offers almost supercar performance for acceptable price tag.

But... What I did not like on my MP4-12C test drive is according to what Mike wrote in this thread again very apparent-big turbo lag. I also hate the doors and while I really think that 650S is looking pretty good I still would not consider one for myself. Thi si the car that I hugely respect just, somehow I can not fall in love with it.

big turbo lag? did you drive a newer one? my spider has a tiny tiny fraction of the lag that my old 997TT had. almost like an NA car. 

Agreed, no lag at all on my MY14 12C Spider. You can't compare it with the earlier cars, like a 996 TT v 997.2 TT.

I also agree that there is no lag. Perhaps there is a tiny, tiny smidgen of lag that is only detectable when comparing it to a 991 TTS or some hybrid like the P1, but I'd have to say there really isn't any noticeable lag.

about the turbo lags; 991TTS to me it has no lag!!.  12C has very very min. lag but I don't noticed the lag that much at all, I only got to drive it a few times, so perhaps my experience isn't accountable....   Perhaps 4WD vs 2WD makes that difference??  I am not sure.....  or perhaps its becuase there are soo much more boost at 4000rpm and lower rpms having the sense of lagging??  However, you quickly forget about the unnoticeable lag issues while u are getting soo much boost in 5000rpms....  Both cars are addictive for the boost, so I really don't care about if there is any lag (if there are any)....  Once you drive it long enough u will realize you are able to live with it and these min. things are just words out there for those hasn't experienced the thrill of the boost......  650S now puts down corsa tires and gained 0.1second for 0-100, personally that 25more horses (perhaps in the graph only showing the differences at peak RPMs) isn't really the factor of that 0.1s, its the corsa tire does most of the jobs.....  Again TTS 4WD certainly is an advantage on 0-100 and its a hell of machine, scares me every time, and addicitive!!!..... RWD hitting 3 second perhaps is as good as it gets (with 1400kg car weight).   

The more I write about TTS the more I miss it....  I just hope 650S arrive soon so I get to have that addicitive boost feeing back......

Rossi:

Whoopsy:

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

C'mon guys, I've been so conservative the last few years. But yes, the delivery is in 3 weeks for a Spider 

Mike S:

Rossi:

Whoopsy:

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

C'mon guys, I've been so conservative the last few years. But yes, the delivery is in 3 weeks for a Spider 

HAHAHA   This is why we love you Mike. 

Also all that restraint form you makes me very suspicious ... maybe something special is on the works 

Mike S:

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

C'mon guys, I've been so conservative the last few years. But yes, the delivery is in 3 weeks for a Spider 

Which colour did you opt for?

Mike S:

Rossi:

Whoopsy:

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

C'mon guys, I've been so conservative the last few years. But yes, the delivery is in 3 weeks for a Spider 

Did you buy it in Singapore?

Huangester, when did you get your 991 TTS?  They were not available at my U.S. dealer until about October last year.  I drove one several times and am seriously considering trading in my 9 month old 991 C4S for one.  The TT is addictive, as you found out, but it was the 4ws and new chassis improvements that really sold me.  I have driven the 12c on several occasions, too, and spent a track day at COTA last November before the F1 race in a 12c, so I feel that I have spent some quality time in the 12c.  The durability of the 911 and the Porsche brand lean heavily in its favor along with a well established dealer network.

If I read you correctly, it is the high-end niche of the McLaren cars, at least for now, that seems to have swayed you.  I have not test driven the 650S, but from what I read, the update produced what McLaren envisioned originally that the 12c would be.  You will definitely get more attention driving the 650S, with its exotic looks, over the 991 TTS.  

Mike S:

Rossi:

Whoopsy:

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

C'mon guys, I've been so conservative the last few years. But yes, the delivery is in 3 weeks for a Spider 

It was way too obvious haha. Can you try a harder encryptor next time? 

LOL Mike.

I like this facelift too. Design wise it is a huge improvement. And it seems that mechanically they finally delivered what they couldn't at the original 12C launch. Spider makes a lot of sense for this car in a bright color of course. At least Mac Laren is not afraid to deliver at a fast pace the improvements, unlike Porsche (not having 600hp for the $200k 991 TTS is laughable, they obviously held up the specs to leave room for the facelift and all, milking the customers once again).

Hard top spyder is a no brainer. Nothing is lost, chassis wise as the carbon tub is the rigid part, if one keeps the top up it's is basically the same as the hard top. Even the engine window is still there.

I had my TTS in late Dec. and decided to sold it to used car dealer before our Chinese New Year (End January).  That was the first TTS in Taiwan, and Porsche dealer was not happy about it, They had to buy that car back from the used car dealer since the price differences was very big, and they had only delivered 3 TTS in Taiwan....   

Havn't driven 650S yet, as there aren't any test car available here.  However, I had few experiences with 12C here.  I must say the privilege of owning a McLaren is well above Porsche for sure.  I had 996 and 991S for a long time, and loved every min. Perhaps I got used to the power and just thought I needed more so when TTS came out in Begging of Sept. I immed. placed the first order,  Once I got the car in late Dec. I was very pleased with the power and how the car tackles all kinds of roads perfectly.   However, the appearance of the car becomes an issue for me, since I ordered my TTS exactly the same colour as my 991S, it really didn't give me much of the "re-freshness".   ITs like the power doesn't suit this car's appearance....  99% of the people here don't even notice the differences. Especially when all the Cayenne are just parked every other block of the city...  That made me feel this brand is not so special when u can paid 90K to own it  (An Audi A6 3.0TDI cost US$100K here, just for ur view)  This is one major factor that I had to let go of TTS, because why would I pay soo much money own a car when this brand can be seen just about everywhere....   

So I thought what I needed to do is to get exactly what I want and no tolerance, and 650S comes alone, settle and yet super car appearance meets my need.  Certainly the Hurcan and 458 are good choices as well, but their appearance just screaming for looks which does not suit my personality.  Also the brand McLaren is not very well known at all to regular public eyes...  perhaps only 5% of people aware of this brand....  (I told my Dad that I am getting a McLaren, and he thought I was getting a Macallan Whisky......) so its very low profile and yet getting the proper appearance and performance figures are just unbeatable.....

Having said all that, 991TTS is a very good car!!  I got addicted to its boost power!!  If you can find a used car, grap it!!  the used car price will certainly make sense to own.....  can't go wrong!!! 

I know how Porsche reduces lag in the TTS, with the VTG turbos.  

But what design elements does McLaren use to accomplish the same?

i can also say that there is no real turbo lag in the 12c. I think the engine is the best of both worlds (NA and Turbo). What a car. A review and pics thread coming up shortly from mine :)

2000RPM WITH 80% of its total torque....  what lag??  hahaha!! 

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=29699

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mclaren/650s/first-drives/mclaren-650s-coupe-first-drive-review

This is a very fast car. 0-100mph in 5.7 sec is nearly Bugatti fast. This white spider is definitely getting my attention...

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mclaren/650s/first-drives/mclaren-650s-spider-first-drive-review

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

This car is a serious consideration vs the 458 spider. Amazing achievement for ML. No doubt the next iteration of the 458 will go in the direction of the 650S and not vice versa. This is the first new model that has tickled me in several years... It slots above 991 TTS, huracan and 458, very close to F12 performance but with a hard top, all for 30% less than a F12 (which you need to wait for two years to get anyway). Amazing.

SciFrog:

This car is a serious consideration vs the 458 spider. Amazing achievement for ML. No doubt the next iteration of the 458 will go in the direction of the 650S and not vice versa. This is the first new model that has tickled me in several years... It slots above 991 TTS, huracan and 458, very close to F12 performance but with a hard top, all for 30% less than a F12 (which you need to wait for two years to get anyway). Amazing.

Its more than serious consideration over the 458 Spider  - its definitely a better overall package. However,nothing out there comes close to the chills down the spine of an F12 in full flow.

Chris Harris Video review. The 650s is lacking a lot of passion to me. Huracan and 458 win in that department even if they are much slower...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMB4TS6sCYo

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

EnglishManInNY:

Chris Harris Video review. The 650s is lacking a lot of passion to me. Huracan and 458 win in that department even if they are much slower...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMB4TS6sCYo

You're completely brainwashed and talking nonsense. Please tell me what passion it lacks other than a different sounding exhaust.

I wonder if McLaren fitted the P1's heads and stuff onto the 12C engine to create the 650S engine. 

Chris mentioned the noticeable turbo lag which is not present in the 12C. Sounds very plausible as the P1 was design with electric motor to mask the lag, on the 650S there is no hybrid system to mask it.

But all in all the video confirms the 650S is a face lifted version of the 12C, little parts here and there are the only things changed. Most of the difference between the 12C and the 650S lies in the software calibration.

The 12C platform really is a gem. McLaren really milks the last drop from it. Soup it up and voila born the P1. Cherry pick some parts from the P1 program and put it back onto the 12C and voila here is a 'new car' i.e. 650S.

Almost seems like McLaren is treating the 12C platform like a 911 one. The 12C is the Carrera S/4S. P1 is the GT2RS. 650S can be the GTS and the upcoming P13 could be consider the base model 911, i.e. the Carrera 2. Or even lower like the Boxter from the 996 platform.

Whoopsy:

...upcoming P13 could be consider the base model 911, i.e. the Carrera 2. Or even lower like the Boxter from the 996 platform.

No, Boxster does not get twin turbo Mezger like the GT2RS with boost turned down (P13 gets twin turbo V8 from P1 for 10% of the price).  P13 is looking like the best buy of the bunch, unless I learn that they cut corners more than has been said so far. Same carbon tub, motor, and gearbox with lighter weight and smaller dimensions.  Where is the downside (and where are the profits for McLaren - how does this car cost much less to build than 650S?)

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

I don't understand of why Porsche doesn't do something similar accross their range (Boxster,Cayman,911) and build a "drivers" car - milking their customers further - I think the 650S is technically superior to many of his competitors and with 650HP  lighter & cheaper than a LP 700 certainly at the moment a top choice