Crown

interesting comment whoopsy made on another subject.

Well Porsche did stated before that the 4ws system on the new GT3 is worth about 50hp on the Ring............

This would mean we compare theoretically 525 HP to 450 in the old RS being 1 second faster ! I would/will definately wait for the RS

Sorry. You are talking about SA time for Ring yes?

Porsche time for Ring 7.25. I have a Kiwi engineer friend at the ring in Nov last year during RWS testing says regualrly getting 7.26 and 7.27 a lap just normal test drivers. You can see my comments 6 months ago on Rennlist about this - never changed. He is a tyre guy and was there for the testing. That car will do sub 7.30 ring times no problem. Porsches time proved it and so will SA time when HvS gets over his cold....

RC:

reginos:

Only 1 sec actually as the 991 did 7:32 sec

Why would you compare the 991 GT3 to the 997 GT3 RS? 

Please compare the 991 GT3 to the 997 GT3, this is the only comparison which makes sense.

The 997.2 RS is closer to the new GT3 in terms of PS and price. 

"Form follows function"

Let us not forget that Porsche's marketing and Andreas Preuninger's announcement that the 4.0 RS was going to be the benchmark for the new 991 GT3 are also reasons why people are now comparing the 991 GT3 with the 997 GT3 RS and 4.0 RS and not with the base 997 GT3.

Comparing both base GT3s, 991 vs 997, shows a clear evolution that is in tune with previous generation successions, but like Gnil and others have already said, if you look at the specs, then you would assume a much better result from SA. I'm surely scoring a hail of catcalls for saying this but maybe the SA article is more "scripted" than some of us want to believe. It's like television, they can write whatever they want. If they always agreed with manufacturers' claims then they would sell less copies.

--

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Gauss:

Let us not forget that Porsche's marketing and Andreas Preuninger's announcement that the 4.0 RS was going to be the benchmark for the new 991 GT3 are also reasons why people are now comparing the 991 GT3 with the 997 GT3 RS and 4.0 RS and not with the base 997 GT3.

Comparing both base GT3s, 991 vs 997, shows a clear evolution that is in tune with previous generation successions, but like Gnil and others have already said, if you look at the specs, then you would assume a much better result from SA. I'm surely scoring a hail of catcalls for saying this but maybe the SA article is more "scripted" than some of us want to believe. It's like television, they can write whatever they want. If they always agreed with manufacturers' claims then they would sell less copies.

--

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

 I glad you said it since I didn't have the courage.   Porsche doesn't always get things right, but in all my years of following Porsche I've never seen them resort to performance puffery, typicallyy quite the opposite. 

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

Gauss:

Let us not forget that Porsche's marketing and Andreas Preuninger's announcement that the 4.0 RS was going to be the benchmark for the new 991 GT3 are also reasons why people are now comparing the 991 GT3 with the 997 GT3 RS and 4.0 RS and not with the base 997 GT3.

Maybe it was a mistake. Porsche test drivers (many of them are engineers too) know these cars in and out and may achieve better track times than for example HvS or any car journalist. I am pretty sure that during internal comparison tests, the new GT3 faired pretty well vs. the GT3 RS 4.0 but I can also see why it may not be really faster in real life comparisons done by "regular" drivers or car journalists. 

Mr. Preuninger is in love with the new GT3 and maybe his enthusiasm was a little bit too much for the usual Porsche marketing machine. Although I cannot see anything wrong in what he did (said).

Comparing both base GT3s, 991 vs 997, shows a clear evolution that is in tune with previous generation successions, but like Gnil and others have already said, if you look at the specs, then you would assume a much better result from SA. I'm surely scoring a hail of catcalls for saying this but maybe the SA article is more "scripted" than some of us want to believe. It's like television, they can write whatever they want. If they always agreed with manufacturers' claims then they would sell less copies.

This is so true.  Controversy attracts people...so...  

I drove the 991 Turbo S for over 2300 km now. I read many comments about testdrives from ordinary people like me with the 991 Turbo S and all of them are positive, most people seem to be surprised how good the new 991 Turbo S is. After I read the CAR article someone posted, I said to myself: "What? They must have tested the wrong car."  Then again, I remember the Sport Auto test of the Turbo S and then I asked myself again: "Did CAR have a different Turbo S than Sport Auto?" 

So my guess is: So many people are amazed with the new 991 Turbo S, CAR had to come up with something different. 

I'm afraid you nailed it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Regarding the SA test I come to the following conclusion: the new gt3 is a clear improvement on the old gt3. It is massively faster (with only 25hp more) and easier to drive. This is real progress for me. The fact that HvS says that the car is tricky on the last 5 percent is also important because it could be relevant to casual sportsdrivers like me. Still it is much easier to get to a good time than in the old model. 

HvS is not a professional racedriver (Rennfahrer) but a very capable Sportfahrer and that is what 99% of the buyers of this car aspire to be (most won't ever get there!). 

So critisizing HvS for not reaching top times is missing the point of what SA want to achieve for its readers...

turbolite

Horst von Saurma is actually a race car driver, I don't understand why people underestimate him so much. He may not be the most successful one but he is not your average track driver.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Horst von Saurma is actually a race car driver, I don't understand why people underestimate him so much. He may not be the most successful one but he is not your average track driver.

thanks for putting this straight here RC...this talk now "oh, now it must be HvS who is responsible.." is for me..well..I wont say it.

I doubt that there are users here who can claim a better ranking than his 4th place in 2010..if so - please come up now and let us know about your talents and who you are :)

I can say for myself, never would I be able to compete with him in the same car..4th overall place (I know he wasnt the only driver)..not everybody can do that..

turbolite:

Regarding the SA test I come to the following conclusion: the new gt3 is a clear improvement on the old gt3. It is massively faster (with only 25hp more) and easier to drive. This is real progress for me. The fact that HvS says that the car is tricky on the last 5 percent is also important because it could be relevant to casual sportsdrivers like me. Still it is much easier to get to a good time than in the old model. 

HvS is not a professional racedriver (Rennfahrer) but a very capable Sportfahrer and that is what 99% of the buyers of this car aspire to be (most won't ever get there!). 

So critisizing HvS for not reaching top times is missing the point of what SA want to achieve for its readers...

 

I agree with your post..except with "massively faster"..of course this is a definition question..anything below 8:00 is already seriously fast..below 7:40 even more so..the one did 7:32..the other one 7:40..

Massively faster - for me - would be 15seconds or more..this would be another world. But todays performance cars are on average already very very close..just think about it..8 sec. out of 7:40..how much is that ? You can do a percent calculation for yourself...and then you will see that the word "massive"...wouldnt be the one that most people would chose..

Anyway..

RC:

Horst von Saurma is actually a race car driver, I don't understand why people underestimate him so much. He may not be the most successful one but he is not your average track driver.

For what is worth the P4 in 2010 was in their class. Overall it was P13. BTW in that year one of the 4 drivers in HvS's Porsche GT3 RS (street) was Chris Harris.

"Form follows function"

BjoernB:

interesting comment whoopsy made on another subject.

Well Porsche did stated before that the 4ws system on the new GT3 is worth about 50hp on the Ring............

This would mean we compare theoretically 525 HP to 450 in the old RS being 1 second faster ! I would/will definately wait for the RS

 

Very good point..and it seems we have more things in common..I´m also a GT2 & GT3 owner..

reginos:

RC:

Horst von Saurma is actually a race car driver, I don't understand why people underestimate him so much. He may not be the most successful one but he is not your average track driver.

For what is worth the P4 in 2010 was in their class. Overall it was P13. BTW in that year one of the 4 drivers in HvS's Porsche GT3 RS (street) was Chris Harris.

thanks for the correction..I do remember now also..it was 13th overall..still..normal track day drivers wouldnt get there..

Horst von Saurma has strong ties to Porsche but he has always been an honest person. All Porsche reviews I read from him so far were 100% accurate. He was actually the only journalist to criticize the memory buttons for the electric seat adjustment in the first 997 generation (sporty drivers were hitting the memory buttons with their knee during driving and the seat started moving), which also proved to me that he actually drove the car longer than only ten minutes. 

His claim that the new 991 GT3 is difficult to drive at the limit is also an honest claim because he didn't have to say it, especially considering how close he is to Porsche and their products.

I trust Horst von Saurma and so far, he never disappointed. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

HvS claims the 991GT3 was difficult to handle at the limit. How is it then that Porsche drivers were able to do the Ring in the 991GT3 seven seconds faster? Obviously HvS was not at the limit of the car.

nberry:

HvS claims the 991GT3 was difficult to handle at the limit. How is it then that Porsche drivers were able to do the Ring in the 991GT3 seven seconds faster? Obviously HvS was not at the limit of the car.

That's a valid point, Nick.

Also, isn't the GT3 by tradition meant to be a bit of a handful, that's what many want,, ?...

throt

"I didn't do it"

nberry:

HvS claims the 991GT3 was difficult to handle at the limit. How is it then that Porsche drivers were able to do the Ring in the 991GT3 seven seconds faster? Obviously HvS was not at the limit of the car.

Ask yourself the question how many days Porsche factory drivers had the opportunity to test and tweak the car around the Nürburgring and set the 7:25 laptime. HvS most probably just had a couple of hours.

--

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Gauss:

nberry:

HvS claims the 991GT3 was difficult to handle at the limit. How is it then that Porsche drivers were able to do the Ring in the 991GT3 seven seconds faster? Obviously HvS was not at the limit of the car.

Ask yourself the question how many days Porsche factory drivers had the opportunity to test and tweak the car around the Nürburgring and set the 7:25 laptime. HvS most probably just had a couple of hours.

.....and still achieved 98,5 % of the factory drivers' performance  - not too bad, if you ask me (even if we ignore parameters like weather, track condition and maybe slightly different suspension alignment...). To me this is a phantom discussion which has nothing to do with "Ring realities". BTW I am sure HvS (like any other smart sport driver testing the limits of a new car model) explores the limits of the car at HHR, not NoS....

--

public roads: Porsche 981S white/black/red, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

I would have no problems if HvS did the Ring in 7:32. My issue is he went out of his way to state the car was difficult to handle at its limit. It was almost like he was making excuses as to why he did not have a faster time believing the car was capable of more. He took what could have been a positive and turned it into a negative. 

His assessment of the car difficulties at or near the limit is a dagger in the heart of a technologically advance track car. He should have written "this car can go faster around the Ring but I am not talented enough to go faster". That I would have understood.

Haha, not another HvS debate. I still remember 6 years ago we had one for his time on the 997.1 Turbo. 

@Nick. He won't do that, when is the last time you read about someone saying they are inferior to the car?

Whoopsy:

Haha, not another HvS debate. I still remember 6 years ago we had one for his time on the 997.1 Turbo. 

@Nick. He won't do that, when is the last time you read about someone saying they are inferior to the car?

Indeed. How about a break and some light refreshment instead?

http://youtu.be/E7sV59hCJ9k

Whoopsy:

Haha, not another HvS debate. I still remember 6 years ago we had one for his time on the 997.1 Turbo. 

@Nick. He won't do that, when is the last time you read about someone saying they are inferior to the car?

Just hope that HvS doesn't drive the 918 for the SA test. You may cancel your order assuming you can.

nberry:

Whoopsy:

Haha, not another HvS debate. I still remember 6 years ago we had one for his time on the 997.1 Turbo. 

@Nick. He won't do that, when is the last time you read about someone saying they are inferior to the car?

Just hope that HvS doesn't drive the 918 for the SA test. You may cancel your order assuming you can.

I place little to no attention to what he does in a car.

He trashed the 997.1 Turbo 6 years ago, yet I still purchased and kept mine for 5 years. And I replaced it with basically the same car plus a few tweaks here and there, the 997.2 Turbo S. 

It doesn't matter to me if the LaFerrari and/or the P1 is faster around the Ring, the 918 is and will be the 1st production car on street tires to break 7 mins. No one else can claim that title anymore. I sure don't see the LaFerrari nor the P1 breaking 6 mins. Until the next production car breaking the 6 min mark, there isn't any significant milestone to be had on the Ring anymore, not 6:50, 6:40, 6:30, 6:20, 6:10, these numbers just doesn't have the prestige to be the first one go under a major timing scale, like 7 minutes. Which sounds better? My car is the 1st one to go under 7 mins or my car is the first one to go under 6:57?

On a side note, McLaren is still courting me to buy one the the last 2 Canadian P1 allocation. They let me know if I pass it up they will send the 2 cars to China or Dubai, where they are selling for 2.5 times what I would pay. 

FWIW, I think the P1 looks clownish. I have no problem with your decision to buy the 918.

nberry:

Whoopsy:

Haha, not another HvS debate. I still remember 6 years ago we had one for his time on the 997.1 Turbo. 

@Nick. He won't do that, when is the last time you read about someone saying they are inferior to the car?

Just hope that HvS doesn't drive the 918 for the SA test. You may cancel your order assuming you can.

Nick, Horst von Saurma is really a guy you want to listen to when it comes to cars. 

Anyway: I do not remember him "trashing" the 996 Turbo when it came out but if I'm not wrong, he criticized the too tame and neutral setup. This is actually something I loved on the 996 Turbo and something Porsche destroyed in the next 997 generation. The 997 Turbo almost handled like a 997 Carrera. If I wanted the Carrera, I would have bought one.  With the 991 Turbo/S, Porsche changed the setup again. It is very neutral but if you push it hard, you can still have some typical 911 fun with the tail coming strongly (Sport Plus, PSM off). The emphasis is on "pushing hard". The tail on the 997 Turbo actually came way too early in my opinion and understeer sucked big time. This is the reason why after my first 997 Turbo (afterwards tuned by RUF), I didn't upgrade to the 997.2 Turbo S. I wanted to but the chassis/PTM setup just wasn't for me, so I tried something else (997 Carrera GTS and Panamera Turbo S). Both "experiments" went wrong and costed a lot of money, so I'm back to my "roots" now: 911 Turbo S. 

Back to topic: 7:32 min. is a pretty good time for the new GT3, especially considering the 7:40 time for it's predecessor.

Also remember, there is a GT3 RS coming... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Horst von Saurma has strong ties to Porsche but he has always been an honest person. All Porsche reviews I read from him so far were 100% accurate. He was actually the only journalist to criticize the memory buttons for the electric seat adjustment in the first 997 generation (sporty drivers were hitting the memory buttons with their knee during driving and the seat started moving), which also proved to me that he actually drove the car longer than only ten minutes. 

His claim that the new 991 GT3 is difficult to drive at the limit is also an honest claim because he didn't have to say it, especially considering how close he is to Porsche and their products.

I trust Horst von Saurma and so far, he never disappointed. 

Same opinion here! He is definitely a good guy in all senses and I trust his judgement very much.

The reason why i said that he is not a racerdiver is that he is not - and as far as i know never was - a professional racedriver. Of course he has a licence and successfully participates in races as your table shows. But this makes him even more relevant for the SA readers, who are what i call Sportfahrer too!

People who comment on how other professionals could be faster than him do not really understand the rational/methodology behind the SA tests.  It is also difficult grasping the nuances of a Supertest  just by looking at times if you dont understand the language, which allows differentiation. And HvS is quite a master of the written word too... 

turbolite

turbolite:

 

People who comment on how other professionals could be faster than him do not really understand the rational/methodology behind the SA tests.  It is also difficult grasping the nuances of a Supertest  just by looking at times if you dont understand the language, which allows differentiation. And HvS is quite a master of the written word too... 

 

 So far, Sport Auto is the authority in the sports car magazine world in my opinion, the exact contrary of AutoBILD Sportscars for example, which is more focused on sensations and tuned cars. Worldwide, I do not know any car magazine to match Sport Auto's testing accuracy and certification but I guess for some people, nice photos accompanied by sensational text are more attractive than the...truth. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Exactly!

and HvS is a very fast driver indeed: 

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113102364895/alfa-romeo-4c-full-video-lapping-nordschleife-in-804

turbolite

Interesting. I didn't know that. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 

Also remember, there is a GT3 RS coming... 

when?

damn...

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS