Crown

GTlover:

But I was disapppointed to read such statements here on Rennteam, an international forum. Im neither Italian, but I work at many places around the world. Nationality is not a reason for "failures"..therefore saying that cars from Italy can never be as good a german ones..is complete bs for me. Sorry for my words..

 

These are not stereotypes - these are facts. Have you owned Ferraris and drove like 100.000km with them and did a factory tour in Maranello/Zuffenhausen to compare? If not, you might consider the opinions of those who did 

P.S.: another example: high-end furniture - we have many Italian products from Knoll (sideboards made in Italy, Flos, Arteluce etc.). None (!) of the pieces is flawless. This has nothing to do with stereotypes but with different life styles/work attitudes.

MKSGR:

GTlover:

But I was disapppointed to read such statements here on Rennteam, an international forum. Im neither Italian, but I work at many places around the world. Nationality is not a reason for "failures"..therefore saying that cars from Italy can never be as good a german ones..is complete bs for me. Sorry for my words..

 

These are not stereotypes - these are facts. Have you owned Ferraris and drove like 100.000km with them and did a factory tour in Maranello/Zuffenhausen to compare? If not, you might consider the opinions of those who did 

P.S.: another example: high-end furniture - we have many Italian products from Knoll (sideboards made in Italy, Flos, Arteluce etc.). None (!) of the pieces is flawless. This has nothing to do with stereotypes but with different life styles/work attitudes.

another example: porsche 997 gen 2. mine wasn't flawless (on the contrary).  

let me see whether my italian furniture is flawless. i just asked my wife - austrian - to double check.  she gives thumbs up ........

i have not driven my ferrari for 100K miles (kilometers) but i am not interested in this kind of test either. i suggest you get a 991 GT3 or whatever porsche, drive it for 100K km and report back. 

cheers and good nite, 

peter

moo:

come on RC, you often make sense when you write about cars (except when you write about the turbo S  ) but your geo-politics and insights into national behavioral patters are - to put it into the least - highly questionable but certainly entertaining. 

 

Now aint that the truth, but thank God RCs expertise is cars and not the other since thats why we are here

moo:

MKSGR:

GTlover:

But I was disapppointed to read such statements here on Rennteam, an international forum. Im neither Italian, but I work at many places around the world. Nationality is not a reason for "failures"..therefore saying that cars from Italy can never be as good a german ones..is complete bs for me. Sorry for my words..

 

These are not stereotypes - these are facts. Have you owned Ferraris and drove like 100.000km with them and did a factory tour in Maranello/Zuffenhausen to compare? If not, you might consider the opinions of those who did 

P.S.: another example: high-end furniture - we have many Italian products from Knoll (sideboards made in Italy, Flos, Arteluce etc.). None (!) of the pieces is flawless. This has nothing to do with stereotypes but with different life styles/work attitudes.

another example: porsche 997 gen 2. mine wasn't flawless (on the contrary).  

let me see whether my italian furniture is flawless. i just asked my wife - austrian - to double check.  she gives thumbs up ........

i have not driven my ferrari for 100K miles (kilometers) but i am not interested in this kind of test either. i suggest you get a 991 GT3 or whatever porsche, drive it for 100K km and report back. 

cheers and good nite, 

peter

 

I also drive my Porsches a lot - one of my last GT2 got approx. 90.000km in 2.5 years, same with my last regular turbo 

BTW, when I am talking about production quality I always keep in mind that the Italian products are unique and irreplaceable. I am not saying that the products are inferior - I am just saying they have different qualities/specifica, These special qualities also make the products so desirable  And the F458 is a magnificent car 

moo:

SuzyF:

Or an Alfa 4C ;)  has a little bit more daily driving capabillity.

i have a 458. beats them all except maybe the GT3 and the 458S.  i am not into soccer mum turbo Ses, panameras etc. 

but to each his (her) own. 

Oh boy, I wish we could meet. I would make you cry...in a soccer mum Turbo S. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

moo:

hi my friend RC,

i am not a lawyer but a scientist. you need to be on top of it to win an argument against a mathematician. back to topic: forget the F12, it is the  front engined fezza version of the panamera, together with the FF. more sports car than the panamera yes, but no fun compared to the 458. peter

Then you will enjoy what Carl Sagan said once about scientists:

In science it often happens that scientists say, 
“You know that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,”
and then they actually change their minds 
and you never hear that old view from them again. 
They really do it. 
It doesn’t happen as often as it should, 
because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. 
But it happens every day. 
I cannot recall the last time something like that 
happened in politics or religion.

You still have time, my friend.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

moo:

SuzyF:

Or an Alfa 4C ;)  has a little bit more daily driving capabillity.

i have a 458. beats them all except maybe the GT3 and the 458S.  i am not into soccer mum turbo Ses, panameras etc. 

but to each his (her) own. 

Oh boy, I wish we could meet. I would make you cry...in a soccer mum Turbo S. 

RC,  it is not about raw speed, it is about tactility. 

peter

ps: i just test-drove a turbo S this morning. very very fast, very accomplished ride, ok interior, sort of nice. but it left me totally cold at semi-legal speeds and i didn't look back at the car when i locked it at the dealership. the sound is also ok, better than what i thought. anyway, i can understand why people buy the car. it is just not my cup of tea. be careful with it, it is some kind of strange missile. 

pps:btw, the dealer confirmed the PDK issue of the GT3 and he has no idea when it will be resolved. he said :could be tomorrow or in a month, but dealers are probably always the last to know.

ppps: this afternoon i shall get my 458 back after the change to winter tyres, tomorrow i drive off to switzerland....

MKSGR:

BTW, when I am talking about production quality I always keep in mind that the Italian products are unique and irreplaceable. I am not saying that the products are inferior - I am just saying they have different qualities/specifica, These special qualities also make the products so desirable  And the F458 is a magnificent car 

It's important where and by whom a product is engineered, not so much where it is manufactured or assembled.

Many components are made all around the world, as someone mentioned above, but if they are made to German standards they are as good as if they are made in Germany.

I had a C class made in South Africa and I currently own a VW Polo also made in SA. They are perfect as any of the others. Also the engine of one of my BMW motorbikes is made in China. Again the factory there is run to the BMW Motorrad-Berlin standards.

"Form follows function"

RC:

Then you will enjoy what Carl Sagan said once about scientists:

In science it often happens that scientists say, 
“You know that’s a really good argument; my position is mistaken,”
and then they actually change their minds 
and you never hear that old view from them again. 
They really do it. 
It doesn’t happen as often as it should, 
because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. 
But it happens every day. 
I cannot recall the last time something like that 
happened in politics or religion.

 

so very true

moo:

RC:

ppps: this afternoon i shall get my 458 back after the change to winter tyres, tomorrow i drive off to switzerland....

A bit unusual, but we had heavy snow falls the last 2 nights down to 1000 m . The mountains are covered in white , and many passes are closed

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

moo:

RC:

ppps: this afternoon i shall get my 458 back after the change to winter tyres, tomorrow i drive off to switzerland....

A bit unusual, but we had heavy snow falls the last 2 nights down to 1000 m . The mountains are covered in white , and many pass are closed

yes, this is why i already changed over. the legal date here is nov 1 only.

p

reginos:

MKSGR:

BTW, when I am talking about production quality I always keep in mind that the Italian products are unique and irreplaceable. I am not saying that the products are inferior - I am just saying they have different qualities/specifica, These special qualities also make the products so desirable  And the F458 is a magnificent car 

It's important where and by whom a product is engineered, not so much where it is manufactured or assembled.

Many components are made all around the world, as someone mentioned above, but if they are made to German standards they are as good as if they are made in Germany.

I had a C class made in South Africa and I currently own a VW Polo also made in SA. They are perfect as any of the others. Also the engine of one of my BMW motorbikes is made in China. Again the factory there is run to the BMW Motorrad-Berlin standards.

 

Guys, before someone accuses me of using stereotypes and being too nationalistic (as a German), a little side note: I am not born in Germany, I worked many years in the diplomatic field, I have many international friends and relations and I actually like Germany much less than I like the US for example. The only things I appreciate over here is safety and work morale. In the US.(...and Italy, I should add France too) people I have to deal with (hotels, restaurants, car shops, car rentals, whatever) sometimes drive me nuts. They are slow, incompetent, moody, ineffective and what is worst: They seem to know it but they couldn't care less. I am too nice to bother but my wife always gets in a rage about it and tells people exactly what she thinks (not that it helps ).

Let the next Lamborghini generation come out, I think Ferrari will be shocked. Piech specifically targeted Ferrari with the new models and I think they are going to be better than ever. Italian design and classiness combined with German engineering and quality. Unbeatable. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Some rumor update regarding 991 GT3 customer cars:

1. No customer car built until earliest mid of November (very likely no customer car delivered at all until December but this remains to be seen...).

2. Delay issues seem to be PDK (heat) and engine (high revving durability).

3. Solutions: PDK will get improved cooling, engine gets improved pistons/piston rods.

Again...rumors. Please take with a grain of salt. There is no official confirmation for the above!

Do not be worried if you ordered a GT3. I heard rumors that Porsche is doing everything to get the job done and the customer cars will be perfect. On the contrary, I think that with the improvements, the GT3 will be even better and much more reliable. It is good that they caught it in time.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

It's good that this time Porsche are not letting the customers test the cars, like in the case of the M-96 engines.

In retrospect that was a dark page in the Porsche engineering history. I am convinced that W. Wiedeking's push for economies and higher profitability influenced the engineers to cut corners at that time.

IMO a car company should be run by engineers instead of accountants, lawyers or MBAs. I am sure Piech keeps an eye on Porsche too.

--

"Form follows function"

What happened (delivery delay) is very unfortunate and I really believe that Porsche will somehow compensate those who ordered a GT3, even if the biggest compensation will be actually the fact that their cars will be even more durable and reliable than they were designed to be. Porsche caught the issues early enough and according to rumors, they will not spare additional cost to get things right and to provide a perfect car for their customers. I talked to somebody who is very close to the GT3 stuff and he told me that the cars will be really really good, apparently they raised the "error margin" for failure even higher to make sure that the GT3 will be an outstanding product. I know this sounds like marketing gibberish but this guy is not working in marketing and he has no reason to talk to me like that, especially since I don't have or will have a GT3.

I feel for you guys but better the car arrives later and you have a lot of fun with it, instead of an early car and serious issues.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

will this delay the RS as well? the last i have heard is presentation in august 2014 and deliveries starting october 2014. being pushed forward by 4 months as well?

peter

moo:

will this delay the RS as well? the last i have heard is presentation in august 2014 and deliveries starting october 2014. being pushed forward by 4 months as well?

peter

I don't have a clue but since PDK and the engine are rumored to be involved, I would actually guess yes.  The RS was rumored for a spring delivery introduction, so maybe the deliveries starting Oct. 2014 has already "counted in" the delay but I don't know. I will try to find out but I get the rumors/information on a need to know/discussion basis, I cannot exactly call or mail somebody and ask directly.  (which would be great)

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

moo:

will this delay the RS as well? the last i have heard is presentation in august 2014 and deliveries starting october 2014. being pushed forward by 4 months as well?

peter

I don't have a clue but since PDK and the engine are rumored to be involved, I would actually guess yes.  The RS was rumored for a spring delivery introduction, so maybe the deliveries starting Oct. 2014 has already "counted in" the delay but I don't know. I will try to find out but I get the rumors/information on a need to know/discussion basis, I cannot exactly call or mail somebody and ask directly.  (which would be great)

thanks.....

RS is still planed for march unveil and October first delivery as far as I am aware. The above issue is already solved, but will take some time to impliment with suppliers. This however will only likely affect numbers of GT3 built not RS.... 

macca993:

RS is still planed for march unveil and October first delivery as far as I am aware. The above issue is already solved, but will take some time to impliment with suppliers. This however will only likely affect numbers of GT3 built not RS.... 

why this macca? i take it the GT3 RS will get the same PDK-S as the GT3 albeit with slightly different programming, no? also they will share the engines albeit in different tunes i gather.

p

Yes Pete I think you are correct. Expect to see lighter flywheel for RS variant for transmission and perhaps small software patch for transmission ECU (shiftpoints etc). For engine expect to see no capacity increase but a claimed power increase of 20-30 bhp some real (Ecu, intake manifold and pleneum, exhaust) and some already left on the table from GT3 which those with the degrees in engineering have already decided due to magazine test data (including Sport Auto) indicate power unit is already putting out circa 490 bhp as AP indicated in early interveiws...

i'm officially on the list for an RS from....today.

but i don't know nothing about it...so RC,make something for me/us.

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo

macca993:

Yes Pete I think you are correct. Expect to see lighter flywheel for RS variant for transmission and perhaps small software patch for transmission ECU (shiftpoints etc). For engine expect to see no capacity increase but a claimed power increase of 20-30 bhp some real (Ecu, intake manifold and pleneum, exhaust) and some already left on the table from GT3 which those with the degrees in engineering have already decided due to magazine test data (including Sport Auto) indicate power unit is already putting out circa 490 bhp as AP indicated in early interveiws...

macca,

this is what i thought more or less.....also i hear bucket seats from the 918 spyder.

p

macca993:

RS is still planed for march unveil and October first delivery as far as I am aware. The above issue is already solved, but will take some time to impliment with suppliers. This however will only likely affect numbers of GT3 built not RS.... 

According to rumors, some dealers in Germany already had RS delivery estimates for a march delivery a couple of weeks ago, so...  The issues seem to be solved in indeed, in the sense that the improvements are well known and will be implemented but like you said, suppliers are a different story and I just hope that everything works according to plans. Please keep in mind that I am always talking about the German market, I barely get information about outside markets.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Super Darius:

i'm officially on the list for an RS from....today.

 

but i don't know nothing about it...so RC,make something for me/us.

Congratulations, Dario. So you finally made your decision. 

I don't have much on the RS yet but I hope to get more information end of this month. Hopefully.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

that makes two of us.....tanti auguri a te.

peter

moo:

that makes two of us.....tanti auguri a te.

peter

Peter, c'mon, you cannot get a Porsche. Do you really want to come over to the...dark side?   

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

moo:

that makes two of us.....tanti auguri a te.

peter

Peter, c'mon, you cannot get a Porsche. Do you really want to come over to the...dark side?   

RC,

i work for a UK university, which we call the bright side. so i can afford to go over to the dark side car wise.

p

Super Darius:

i'm officially on the list for an RS from....today.

 

but i don't know nothing about it...so RC,make something for me/us.

Wow! Nice. Very nice! This will be truly spectacular! Many congrats!

- HS (Belgium)  -  '14 Porsche 991 GT3 (oct build) - '06 BMW 335I Coupe  

moo:

that makes two of us.....tanti auguri a te.

peter

Great. This will be truly amazing! Congratulations!

- HS (Belgium)  -  '14 Porsche 991 GT3 (oct build) - '06 BMW 335I Coupe