Crown

acrobat:

Any results by AMS?

We have a national holiday here, so I am going to stay home today. I haven't checked for the new AMS.

I tried the AMS iPad app but the latest issue isn't available yet. According to the AMS website, the latest issue will be available tomorrow. Some subscription owners should have received their issue yesterday though.

I only know that much: The 991 Turbo S was faster than the Nissan GT-R, straight line and on the track.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

I only know that much: The 991 Turbo S was faster than the Nissan GT-R, straight line and on the track.

Sign of the times. The agony is whether the new high tech, 200.000 EUR top of the line Porsche beats a souped-up Nissan

"Form follows function"

reginos:

RC:

I only know that much: The 991 Turbo S was faster than the Nissan GT-R, straight line and on the track.

Sign of the times. The agony is whether the new high tech, 200.000 EUR top of the line Porsche beats a souped-up Nissan

I think that Nissan shocked sports car manufacturers when they first introduced the GT-R a couple of years ago but the fear has gone, simply because Nissan has proven that they only "cook with water" also, like everybody else. They cannot build a low priced super sports car with high quality parts. So I guess Nissan needs to decided if they want to pursue this adventure further and improve the GT-R or if they stop it. The GT-R is still a bargain though. So if Nissan would give it a much more attractive body, it could actually hurt classic sports car manufacturers like Porsche much more.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Porsche Turbo vs. GTR is just another version of the Porsche vs. Corvette argument.  PLEASE let's don't get into that ancient--and irrelevant--argument again....

OK, I just downloaded the latest AMS issue to my iPad (it is available through the US iTunes store too...just in case you are interested).

Here are the test results:

991 Turbo S

0-100 kph in 2.9 seconds

0-200 kph in 10.2 seconds

0-280 kph in 24.6 seconds

Quartermile: 10.9 seconds.

Nissan GT-R Black Edition (latest version)

0-100 kph in 3.3 seconds

0-200 kph in 11.6 seconds

0-280 kph in 30.3 seconds (5.9 seconds slower than 991 Turbo S)

Quartermile: 11.4 seconds.

Audi R8 V10 Plus

0-100 kph in 3.7 seconds

0-200 kph in 11.6 seconds

0-280 kph in 30.7 seconds (6.1 seconds slower than 991 Turbo S)

Quartermile: 11.6 seconds.

In the wet handling, Porsche finally has improved the tires and the new AWD does it's magic too: 1:23,86 min (1:25,88 min. for the Audi and 1:30,66 for the Nissan, Nissan uses UHP tires).

Now the best part: The Nissan GT-R and the 991 Turbo S are practically identical in the handling tests at lower and higher speeds, incl. high speed braking (from 190 kph). However: The Nissan GT-R was equipped with UHP tires, the 991 Turbo S with normal street tires. Amazing. More interesting is the comparison with the Audi, which used PZero tires too. No chance vs. the 991 Turbo S in any handling category. Did someone say that mid engined cars are much better?!

Verdict (AMS): The 991 Turbo S is unreasonably expensive but also unreasonably fast, agile and efficient...all that combined even with some comfort. This is why the 991 Turbo S wins the comparison.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Oh, just curious: What were Dario and others saying about the 0-300 kph time of the 991 Turbo S?

Little hint (AMS didn't post the time, unfortunately): It is under 30 seconds.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

This puts the Turbo S over 30 seconds to 300kph, my 997GT2 running 650PS took 6.25s, my 993 running 560PS took 7.2s so if the thermail management is all good (and it doesn't go mega rich to cool things down at the high loadings) then I would now reckon at 32s for the 991 turbo S - right what Porsche said 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

TB993tt:

This puts the Turbo S over 30 seconds to 300kph, my 997GT2 running 650PS took 6.25s, my 993 running 560PS took 7.2s so if the thermail management is all good (and it doesn't go mega rich to cool things down at the high loadings) then I would now reckon at 32s for the 991 turbo S - right what Porsche said 

29.x according to rumors.

Porsche said 32 seconds? Where? I got "under 30, 29.something", which would be correct.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

TB993tt:

This puts the Turbo S over 30 seconds to 300kph, my 997GT2 running 650PS took 6.25s, my 993 running 560PS took 7.2s so if the thermail management is all good (and it doesn't go mega rich to cool things down at the high loadings) then I would now reckon at 32s for the 991 turbo S - right what Porsche said 

29.x according to rumors.

Porsche said 32 seconds? Where? I got "under 30, 29.something", which would be correct.I 

I have Waayyyy too much data on accelerating to 300kph, all captured by myself so I know all the conditions, cars etc.

The fastest I ever ran in my 997GT2 with engine dyno 660PS on a lovely smooth airfield no passenger was 0-300kph in 25.97s with the 280 to 300kph part taking 5.7s

Even though we know the GT2 has worse CdA there is no way the numbers add up for the 991 turbo S to do the 280-300kph in less than 5.4s when one takes into account that the Gt2 has "wasted" 2.5s in gear changes in comparison - as usual time will tell but it is 32s for me and that is impressive  

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

I just checked the aero numbers, 991Turbo CdA 0.64, 997 GT2 0.66

at 280kph the Turbo S needs 246hp to achieve that speed and the GT2 needs 254hp

at 300kph the Turbo S needs 302hp to achieve that speed and the GT2 needs 311hp

Conclusion very little difference in drag - 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

I could say "trust me" but you won't believe me?

You are always talking 997, I am talking 991. The 991 Turbo S uses the "old" engine design but it shares almost not a single part with the "old" 997 engine. Furthermore, the AWD system is completely new, so is the drivetrain, PTM setup and many other things before. Aerodynamics is also better than on the old car, incl. the GT2.

29.something is the official word. I trust them. Be impressed.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

TB993tt:

This puts the Turbo S over 30 seconds to 300kph, my 997GT2 running 650PS took 6.25s, my 993 running 560PS took 7.2s so if the thermail management is all good (and it doesn't go mega rich to cool things down at the high loadings) then I would now reckon at 32s for the 991 turbo S - right what Porsche said 

Spot on on that. Also kerso source spoke about over 30secs. 

991 turbo 6 gears goes over 330kmh 7the fuel saving (source Autozeitung)

ams according to rc 100-200 in 7.3 secs witch isnt mind blowing  (see mp4-12c)

but 0-100 Times is exeptionel but maybe not that important in real world. At least to me

I give up. You theorize, I got official numbers. If you don't believe them, no problem.

It is a pity AMS didn't post the 0-300 kph time, it would have been too devastating for the Nissan and even the Audi.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Some interesting facts (comparisons...all from AMS, they are using standardized test methods):

991 Turbo S

Slalom 18 m: 69.4 kph (991 GT3: 72.4 kph with UHP tires).

AMS Wedeltest (some sort of "wider slalom" test): 149.4 kph (991 GT3: 154.1 kph with UHP tires)

Radical with Kumho semi-slicks: 147.8 kph.

McLaren MP4-12C (latest version) with Pirelli PZero street tires: 151.1 kph (ESP turned off!), 147.8 kph in Sport mode.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Dont take the nissan nore the Audi as 200-300kmh refernce. Wasnt the Nissan gtr not already up to 300kmh behind the 997.1 turbo manuel in this exercise.. The gearing plays a major role and maybe we forget that by times.

what is so wrong with the argumentation . 0-100kmh time fantastic 100-200kmh time as announced 7.3 sec and we argue the 0-300 time.

remember 997 gt2 official 0-300 in 33 secs Reality more with 35 secs

RC:

I give up. You theorize, I got official numbers. If you don't believe them, no problem.

It is a pity AMS didn't post the 0-300 kph time, it would have been too devastating for the Nissan and even the Audi.

RC, just take a look at the data below, yes it is "theorizing" but just look at the numbers. First you have to trust me that I know what I am doing with measuring 0-300 

The table below is 997GT2 with engine dyno 660PS, the data is acceleration from a standstill. for a start you can see 0-300 in 25.97s, we can both agree this is FAST and remember it includes 5 MANUAL gearchanges so yes the car MUST have 660PS OK 

Now look at the data and work out the 200 to 280kph - it is 9.93s  

Now work out the 991 turbo S 200 to 280kph it is 14.4s

OK so the 997 is 4.47s QUICKER 200 to 280kph 

Now look at the data 280 to 300kph it takes the (much faster so far) 997 5.7s to do this

For the 991 turbo S to do 0-300 in 29.9s it would need to do the 280 to 300kph in 29.9-24.6 = 5.3s

So suddenly the 991 turbo S accelerates that much faster - IMPOSSIBLE 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

I see a small (maybe more) logical flaw in your argumentation: Do you know what boost pressure the 991 Turbo S produces at 280 kph (assuming full throttle)? It could be 1.2 bar for what I know (just a theory), it could be 0.7 bar. What about the 997 GT2 you posted the data of? How much boost pressure at that speed?

Or better said: How much power does the 991 Turbo S produce at 280 kph under full throttle and how much power does your 997 GT2 produce? I don't have a clue.

Also, what about tire friction or drivetrain friction? It is not possible to make a direct comparison, based on speed and power only.

Just saying...I'm no engineer and never did such through testing with my cars but...
Don't shoot the messenger.

Maybe fritz can help out here...he is a pro and knows this stuff. I am just a humble Porsche fan with some experience along the way, no engineer.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 

Also, what about tire friction or drivetrain friction? It is not possible to make a direct comparison, based on speed and power only.

 

Both engines will be at full load at 280kph, lots of boost (1.6bar on the GT2) hence why I am impressed if the 991 doesn't start to lose some power as the 997 A91 engine did - could be the improved "thermal management" you informed us of .

The bit you say above is the interesting bit and the only way I personally can see the 991 doing what you have been told, it will be really an awesome achievement if true and I would be sorely tempted for a model change myself 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

Christian,

0-300km/h is measured but, not published. My P source wrote 10mins ago in his email(he is at home today because of national holiday) 30.4s...

I wrote here already that AMS and SA  are only marginally better then factory numbers. 10.2s for 0-200km/h proved that.

Also, overboost lasts 20s and you need to calculate that in any 0-300km/h acceleration... 991 Turbo S is very fast in first 20s of acceleration and not so fast after.

Any way it is a an excellent sportscar, probably the best daily usable currently on the market.

If you want something truly faster(in 0-300km/h) you need to look at F12 Berlinetta I am affraid...

Well...even 30.4 seconds would be quite nice, considering the fact that the car isn't "more powerful" like the usual testcars from some car manufacturers. I still have a number under 30 (29.x) but my source is a third party Porsche source and I assume you have somebody directly at AMS. 

So even if we agree on the 30.4 seconds, this is quite impressive.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

What are the MP-12C numbers to compare?

RC:

Well...even 30.4 seconds would be quite nice, considering the fact that the car isn't "more powerful" like the usual testcars from some car manufacturers. I still have a number under 30 (29.x) but my source is a third party Porsche source and I assume you have somebody directly at AMS. 

So even if we agree on the 30.4 seconds, this is quite impressive.

Indeed.

991 Turbo S is a rocket. Fantastic sportcar. Period.

SciFrog:

What are the MP-12C numbers to compare?

9.4s for 0-200km/h for white example few issues ago. Do not forget that MP4-12C has 625ps and it lighter in weight.

Also, with same options around €70K more in Germany...

From last rumors,new Cabrera will be faster than 991 turbo S...we'll see...

KresoF1:

Christian,

0-300km/h is measured but, not published. My P source wrote 10mins ago in his email(he is at home today because of national holiday) 30.4s...

We have to remember the vast majority of people including car journalists are not obsessed with 0-300 numbers and can easily make mistakes particularly if they are not au fait or specifically recording them for the copy.

I reckon your source has heard it wrong or it was told wrongly to him and it should be 34 seconds not 30.4

I will be able to verify the numbers as a close friend is getting one of the first in the UK and I will for sure get him down to our local airfield for some measurements.

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

Kreso,

When do you think F12 results will be available from the german magazines?

TB993tt:

KresoF1:

Christian,

0-300km/h is measured but, not published. My P source wrote 10mins ago in his email(he is at home today because of national holiday) 30.4s...

We have to remember the vast majority of people including car journalists are not obsessed with 0-300 numbers and can easily make mistakes particularly if they are not au fait or specifically recording them for the copy.

I reckon your source has heard it wrong or it was told wrongly to him and it should be 34 seconds not 30.4

I will be able to verify the numbers as a close friend is getting one of the first in the UK and I will for sure get him down to our local airfield for some measurements.

 

 

 

 

It surely wasn't 34 seconds, not from AMS and not from Porsche.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

KresoF1:

SciFrog:

What are the MP-12C numbers to compare?

9.4s for 0-200km/h for white example few issues ago. Do not forget that MP4-12C has 625ps and it lighter in weight.

Also, with same options around €70K more in Germany...

True. Still...both cars have identical Quartermile times, which is quite impressive. (10.9 seconds)

Also from 0-100 kph, the McLaren stands no chance.
Like you said, though: With same options pretty expensive, also too flashy and not really driveable in winter time.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

SciFrog:

What are the MP-12C numbers to compare?

here you go, not even close:  

http://skiddmark.com/2012/06/mclaren-mp4-12c-receives-more-power-and-a-raft-of-detail-improvements/

2011 CTT

2013 12C spider

2013 Audi A5 Cab

Well, you won't win red light races in a MP4-12C and no Quartermile races either.

On the other hand, I don't think you need to worry about winter driving capabilities in San Diego, so...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)