Crown

Thanks. Very informative! I agree with your philosophy regarding cars. I don't want to have to go fast to enjoy it. That is why for years I drove Ferrari's. 

This time I am ordering the 991GT3. A car which is more raw and requires a little more effort to enjoy.

I also agree that paying over a million dollars for a car is something I would never do even if I could afford it. Life's pleasures include many activities other than cars.

I am on a cruise on the Oasis of the Seas right now. Today on the pool side someone next to me strike up a car conversation with me after noticing I had my MP4-12C picture on my iPhone's home screen. 

He, like me, had ordered a 918. He also had a Carrera GT, but he is in the process of selling the CGT as he liked the 918 so much he is ordering a 2nd 918 to replace the CGT.  He had a test drive of the car already and that test drive was his reason to get rid of the CGT, told me it was night and day between the 2.

Told me he also has a 4.0 GT3 in addition to a 3.8 GT3, in addition to a Turbo S 918 edition.

Only got his first name as Frank and he is from LA, wonder if he is a member here.

Some new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRZdK5NtsIg&feature=c4-overview&list=UUYrJZXPgP4fIbPuLrWqS2NA

This white looks stunning!!!!!!!!!

OK - here's my very personal take on the 918:

1)  Am I interested?  -- Yes, of course.  I took the time and expense to attend the 918 technology preview in Weissach exactly 2 years ago.  It seemed pretty cool then and that hasn't changed, now.

2)  $$$ -- It's 40% more expensive (even after accounting for inflation) than the Carrera GT I bought in 2005.  What do I get in extra satisfaction for my one-third of a million dollars more than the CGT?  They might say that it drives better, but that leaves me with a slightly sour comparison to my previous purchase.  All the press promotion for the CGT said it drove wonderfully and I believed it would.  Then I took my own CGT to the track and thought I was just a poor driver because it was just too exciting at corner exits for my talent level.  Last year, I had a nice conversation with Bobby Rahal in which he said of his Carrera GT, "Those things over-steer like crazy!"  So, it turns out I have the same critique of the CGT as a famous Indianapolis 500 winner.  This gives me a form of "cognitive dissonance" regarding Porsche super-cars.  Is there a 40% premium to get the car to drive well?  On whole, I still regard my Carrera GT as a positive experience, but I had to invest my own engineering development time to make my CGT drive acceptably well for me.

3)  Orphan Car -- I'll take credit for coining that term in an e-mail exchange with my "918 Client Relationship Manager".  Until very recently, the Carrera GT suffered from a nearly complete lack of attention from Porsche in regard to support for driving their "race car experience for the street" as it was advertised to potential owners a decade ago.  Porsche sold half of the Carrera GT production to the USA market where there is no autobahn to drive.  The only safe and practical way to enjoy the "race car experience for the street" is to take the CGT to a track.  If Porsche never expected any track use of the Carrera GT, their marketing department needs to be terminated en mass.

In no particular order, here are my "orphan car" concerns:  A)  PCCB durability significantly worse than my experience with cast iron rotors in my other track-driven Porsches.  No support for better cooling, new technology rotors (same 380 mm size as later generations for other models), etc.   B)  Poor tire replacement support where "fresh" replacement tires are no more grippy than worn-out tires because the replacements had been "pre-heat-cycled" by storing them for many years in a hot warehouse.  C)  No warning to CGT owners to change their oil from a now Zinc-deficient reformulation of Mobile1 to Amsoil or other Zinc-rich synthetic motor oil to prevent catastrophic cam lobe wear.  I'm happy that PCNA stepped up to pay for my cam shaft replacement, but that doesn't excuse Porsche AG from being asleep-at-the-switch regarding support for their most expensive model to date.

---------------

In sum, why should I expect my prospective 918 experience to be different than my Carrera GT experience?  My "918 Client Relationship Manager" has promised answers to my questions above and other I have asked.  The answers don't seem to come or are argumentative in nature.  In one of my replies to an argumentative answer, I told him that his statements reminded me of, "Who are you going to believe?  Me, or your lying eyes?"

I'm on the fence about the 918 and the further the process evolves, the more I climb down off the fence and back to minding my own business.

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

Mike, your issues seem to mirror many other Porsche owners particularly in regarding to appropriate use and support of Porsche GT cars. When someone like you begins to complain, Porsche should pay attention.

Mike! In terms of driveability you will have no further wishes regarding the 918 Spyder. I have never driven a road car that gives you more confidence on the track. It is that good! It does however not have the sound of the GT.

I stopped short in my previous rant because I had to go to a meeting.

4)  918 = Carrera GT or 959?  --  Porsche has publicly drawn the comparison of the 918 to a heritage of bright achievements including the 959 and Carrera GT.  Because those two cars mean very different things to me, how does the 918 compare to either car from history?

Carrera GT -- This car was a pinnacle of "analog" super car design and engineering.  Evo magazine includes it in a threesome of it, the McLaren F1 and the Ferrari F50 of all time great driving cars.  I agree, that after I messed with (fixed?) mine, it's the most rewarding car I've ever driven (even though I'm faster at the track in my RS 4.0).  This car is a keeper and keeps its place as a cool car even though, as Futch pointed out, it's no longer among the fastest cars available.  It is however, a glorious high-water mark from a certain point of view.

959  --  This car was also a huge engineering triumph in its day.  I almost bought one when Al Holbert was trying to certify some of them for entry to the USA.  Unfortunately, he died before the project commenced and the project died, too, left without its champion.  How do I regard the 959, today?  It was the harbinger of the AWD 993, 996, 997 & 991 Turbo.  The AWD 911 Turbo seems to me to be an overall better car for my use and it is faster in almost every category.  The 959 is a car that I don't regret missing to buy.  To me, the 959 was a signpost on the road to great series production Porsches, not an end in itself.

So, will the 918 be a pinnacle of achievement for the ages, like the Carrera GT, or will it like the 959, merely point the way to fabulous series production cars that are even faster and more marvelous to drive not so long in the future?

Remember how quickly the Carrera GT was eclipsed on the Nordschleife by the GT2RS?

5)  My wife and I have owned battery-only and battery-hybrid cars for over a decade.  Honda Civic Hybrid through Tesla Model S.  I have a pretty good idea what goes on with NiMH and Li-Ion automotive battery technology.  I've been a Society of Automotive Engineers member for over 20 years.  To me, full battery electric cars are exciting to ponder and even more exciting to drive.  In fact, if it weren't for the cruising range limitations, I would be very tempted to turn in my Panamera Turbo for a second Tesla Model S for our garage.  They're that much fun to drive and cost so little to "fuel" and maintain.

For me, the 918's raison d'etre hybrid drive train is both old news and potentially worrying.  Battery technology is advancing so quickly that I wonder about long-term support for the e-drive portion of the 918.  Our Tesla Roadster battery already has obsolete cells comprising its pack.  If a battery replacement becomes necessary (it will someday), the original parts are not being manufactured anymore.  However, since Tesla is in the battery pack business, a newer cell structure is adaptable for replacement packs.  What provisions has Porsche made for staying up with or, more properly ahead of, battery technology developments?  Their marketing types "guarantee" replacement or even improved e-drive bits in years to come, but their past performance with keeping up with Carrera GT replacements doesn't generate confidence in me.

----------------

So, it would be much easier for me to overlook a large part of my skepticism if we were talking about Carrera GT 2.0  -- where the price was $600,000 to even $700,000.  But at over a million dollars, tax, title, delivered with a modicum of options, I need much more confidence in the 918's present and projectable future than Porsche has been willing to provide.   For instance, is the passenger seat really not adjustable for height so my wife needs to sit on a phone book to ride in the car?

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

TurboRalf:

Mike! In terms of driveability you will have no further wishes regarding the 918 Spyder. I have never driven a road car that gives you more confidence on the track. It is that good! It does however not have the sound of the GT.

As per their usual evasive nature, Porsche hasn't really said how much seat time I might get if I go to one of their 918 road show events.  15 minutes behind the wheel isn't going to get it done.

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

Mike, Porsche should invite a customer like you to Germany, to talk to 918 developers and get the chance to drive the car. I bet this would change your opinion of the car. I am actually surprised they didn't. There are lots of 918 events for potential customers, so... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Mike, Porsche should invite a customer like you to Germany, to talk to 918 developers and get the chance to drive the car. I bet this would change your opinion of the car. I am actually surprised they didn't. There are lots of 918 events for potential customers, so... 

I was invited to apply for registration to a number of 918 Spyder Road Show events.

 Be among the first to get behind the wheel of the Porsche 918 Spyder.

The engineers’ work is done. The designers have had their say. Now the keys will be all yours. The 918 Spyder Roadshow is your chance to drive a machine that is not just the latest Porsche supercar, but an industry-inspiring technological tour de force. One that features a unique drive control system that distributes power between a completely new V8 racing engine and two powerful electric motors, resulting in 887 horsepower and a 0 - 60 time of less than 2.8 seconds. At the 918 Spyder Roadshow, you’ll also get to engage with the exclusive 918 Spyder car configurator and explore the latest Porsche models with highly trained instructors. 

The 918 Spyder Roadshow will take place September 12 – October 11. Space is limited, so secure your spot now. RSVP by contacting one of our 918 Spyder Client Specialists at 800-544-7427. 

All guests must be at least 21 years of age 

©2013 Porsche Cars North America, Inc.

I sense that the problem may be due to the buffer or boundary effect of having PCNA between PAG and USA customers.  This was a major problem during Carrera GT sales and it seems superficially better now, but under the covers I think not much has changed.

I was excited to have a "918 Client Relationship Manager" contact me, but not so excited when he wanted to argue me out of my own observations.  Maybe this client dislikes being "managed"?

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

All these sales people suck... . You need to talk to people directly involved with development, the technical people, the ones who love what they are doing and love to brag about it. I wish I could help...I know how passionate you are about your cars.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Some very relevant questions you raise Mike. I guess it is difficult to answer if the car is going to be an icon, or not, but e.g. the issue of future support is very relevant. I doubt you can get a good answer on that. As you know from your electric car experience batteries dont last for ever. One of the reasons why I ordered a Tesla Model S apart from it being a sensational car to drive was that I believe in Elon Musks long term view on the project. I wouldn't bet that Porsche has this view and even if they did how do you know that the manager currently in charge will be around later on. I have been to Weissach and Leipzig during the last two months and might be able to connect to the guys at the factory if of any help - just PM me.

very interesting insights and thoughts from W8MM re: Carrera GT, 918 and Porsche's lack of technical and parts support for its pinnacle models.

thanks.

TurboRalf:

... One of the reasons why I ordered a Tesla Model S apart from it being a sensational car to drive was that I believe in Elon Musks long term view on the project. I wouldn't bet that Porsche has this view and even if they did how do you know that the manager currently in charge will be around later on. 

Ralf,

I agree completely with your skepticism regarding continuity of vision in a company as large and as bureaucratized as Porsche.  The "next guy" could spin around in a flash and take the company far away from its present intentions and feel no grief from ignoring previously made promises.  The real problem with small-volume "halo" cars is that they really don't affect overall sales and profits outside of their value as objects of PR and advertising "buzz".  They make economic sense as brand promotion, but companies may be more careful not to crash the reputation of high volume cars that are experienced by vast numbers of customers and would carry far more damaging word-of-mouth.  Their dealers would have many more interactions and push back harder against any problems that frequently occur.

Almost all the corporate value from the "halo" cars comes from the magazine and web stories that surround their fantastic capabilities.  If the test writers wax rhapsodic about their experiences driving the press fleet, it's mission accomplished.  Big time third party endorsement is the life-blood of PR.  If the small number of actual owners end up pissed off for various reasons, how many prospective customers of the bread-and-butter cars ever find out?

As you say, one needs to trust the long-term vision of management to get a feeling of long-term support.  I don't currently have that feeling about a million dollar Porsche.  I feel much better about cars that sell in higher volumes for less money.  1)  The total monetary exposure is less, so the disappointment (if it comes) is also less.  2)  Porsche is likely more sensitive to the collective weight of a larger number of customers if they become disappointed, so try harder to not let them down.

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

nice video from Jay Leno's garage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlBUB9RqY_I

btw : what a sound !!!!

 Like a thunder!)))

sportcars-history.com

My view is, the Carrera GT was always designed to be an orphan car. There isn't really anything on it that can be trickle down to regular production. It was a one off dead end project to convert the aborted racing program to road cars to salvage some value back. 

The 959, while itself was still another failed racing project, it has useful technology that can be used for road cars, and it's pretty much the grandfather to all modern day 911 turbos. It has great genes to be passed down the generations.

The 918 was from the grounds up to be a gene pool project for future Porsche cars, it is a completely different program than the 959, Carrera GT. From what we know right now, the 918 will be a technology showcase for Porsche, it being a pinnacle sports car for Porsche is only it's secondary objective.

Just a thought - if turbo engines are the way of the future, allegedly, why does the 918 have a NA engine?

Less weight.

marketing.

lor:

Just a thought - if turbo engines are the way of the future, allegedly, why does the 918 have a NA engine?

My guess is that the hybrid technology is much more difficult to implement with a turbo charged engine. Just a guess though. Also the torque may have been too high for PDK.

Also, most downsizing projects (using turbo charged 6-cyl. engines instead of N/A 8-cyl. engines for example) are carried out to achieve better emissions values, something a hybrid like the 918 wouldn't probably need in the first place.

Turbo charged downsized engines are the future because of future strict emissions regulations worldwide, not because they are so great and better than N/A engines with the same power figure. It may come a time when engineers actually find a way to achieve the same advancements with N/A engines of some sort, maybe through some sort of a hybrid. Right now, downsizing seems to be the cheapest and most effective method to achieve lower CO2 outputs and better emissions.

Many car manufacturers need a lower average CO2 output to meet stricter regulations and laws. This is why Porsche will try to offer downsized engines whereever possible and accepted by customers. The new Macan is actually a godsend gift for Porsche because the smaller SUV with various Diesel or turbo charged 4-cyl. engines will lower the average CO2 output substantially, especially if this smaller SUV sells in huge numbers. This is all part of the future strategy.

Smaller car manufacturers like Ferrari or McLaren have it much easier since, I think, the emissions laws are less strict for them if they build under (I think) 7000 cars per year. It is actually quite astonishing that Porsche was capable of building a car like the 918 or the 991 Turbo S with the emissions laws/regulations they are facing.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1325775

Nice analysis Mike.

Doing a 918 RS rendering.

What colour combo do you think would set this car off? (main colour and contrasting colour).

I would love to see it in black with gold and the carbon fibre Weissach package! Generally I think the car goes best in metallic - white did not work in my opinion. This might change with colored highlights, or decals though.

A little bird told me that Porsche is aiming at breaking Radical's 6:48 record on the Nordschleife... with the precense of Guinness World Record......

I don't know if it is true. Hope some one knows more here...