Crown

the only reson i see for ppl to order a turbo is that they hate PCCB so much so lossing 40 hp isnt a problem for them 

Bi-color is not standard on the Turbo (are you using the German configurator?). I did all the calculation again and I come up with under 5k EUR difference, sorry.

Same options...Turbo and Turbo S.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Hey, I have ego issues as well. If I was ordering a turbo, it would be the S. All I was pointing out was  the general public has no idea what S means on a Porsche. For all they know it could mean SLOWER.

Or SUCKER 

Leawood911:

Perhaps it is because posts are not appreciated and mostly ridiculed or attacked.  I have found it is best to allow those who like to hear themselves post and to not ever issue any dissent.  This results in a forum mostly about exterior and interior colors.

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Tony007:

Or SUCKER 

Wouldn't this contradict your claim that Turbo (non-S) buyers are suckers?

I would rather say that the S stands for SAVVY.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I don't know if this was already posted , but it looks like a Turbo just destroying the ring. After watching this, whats the point of buying a GT3? Looks like the Turbo would just eviscerate a GT3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5vsJcJQro&feature=player_embedded

JimFlat6:

I don't know if this was already posted , but it looks like a Turbo just destroying the ring. After watching this, whats the point of buying a GT3? Looks like the Turbo would just eviscerate a GT3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5vsJcJQro&feature=player_embedded

 

Really very different cars (very different characteristics).

JimFlat6:

I don't know if this was already posted , but it looks like a Turbo just destroying the ring. After watching this, whats the point of buying a GT3? Looks like the Turbo would just eviscerate a GT3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg5vsJcJQro&feature=player_embedded

 

Jim, not that it matters most believe the GT3 will be faster around the Ring. What does matter is the GT3 is more exciting to drive being RWD, by most accounts better looking, very limited production making it more exclusive AND about $70,000 cheaper. A no brainer if you ask me. 

Plus the GT3 sounds better!

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

ag23:

Plus the GT3 sounds better!

But the Turbo S is faster and I want to see the GT3 driver enjoying the car in the city, on a speed limited highway or on a speed limited country road: The GT3 engine needs revving to produce power and sound, so either you won't enjoy it or...you loose your driver license. The GT3 is the perfect track car but as a daily driver, I wouldn't be too sure about it. Also, the GT3 is no Autobahn car since even the "old" 997 Turbo (non S) destroys it on the Autobahn.

Nick, I can play this game all day long.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

ag23:

Plus the GT3 sounds better!

Have you heard the 991 Turbo S?

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

But the Turbo S is faster and I want to see the GT3 driver enjoying the car in the city, on a speed limited highway or on a speed limited country road: The GT3 engine needs revving to produce power and sound, so either you won't enjoy it or...you loose your driver license. The GT3 is the perfect track car but as a daily driver, I wouldn't be too sure about it. Also, the GT3 is no Autobahn car since even the "old" 997 Turbo (non S) destroys it on the Autobahn.

Nick, I can play this game all day long.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Not really. Your arguments could apply to the TTS except for the autobahn which we don't have.  

RC:

ag23:

Plus the GT3 sounds better!

Have you heard the 991 Turbo S?

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I have seen the YouTube videos of both cars many times, ando you have to admit that the sound of the normally aspirated car sounds sexier!!!  The turbo might be faster but it does not sound better!!!  Admit it RC, you know you want one (GT3)...

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

At least in US pricing, if the GT3 was 110K base price it would be a good deal, but at 130K base its not really. Add PCCB and a few other options and you are at 145k. A Turbo S which comes loaded with everything but Burmeister is 181K. The 36K difference /money factor isn't enough to choose the slower car.

In the Porsche pricing world the Turbo S is the best deal they offer for speed and equipment. Yeah the GT3 sounds good, shifts quick, runs like a scared cheetah, but for relatively little more you can have a all weather rocketship that your neighbors GT3 wont be able to catch up to unless maybe its on a tight course on a dry day.

Whoopsy:

Porsche doesn't have a engine for the mid engine car, the boxer 6 is a non starter in that segment and the V8 from the Cayenne/Panamera is too big and heavy, the V8 in the 918 'could' work but it is too expensive...

That's not really true. They put already an Panamera V8 into a Cayman 

jesse:

Whoopsy:

Porsche doesn't have a engine for the mid engine car, the boxer 6 is a non starter in that segment and the V8 from the Cayenne/Panamera is too big and heavy, the V8 in the 918 'could' work but it is too expensive...

That's not really true. They put already an Panamera V8 into a Cayman 

Who? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

ag23:

 

I have seen the YouTube videos of both cars many times, ando you have to admit that the sound of the normally aspirated car sounds sexier!!!  The turbo might be faster but it does not sound better!!!  Admit it RC, you know you want one (GT3)...

There is a YouTube video of a DRIVING 991 Turbo production series car? Where? 

My point is: We are discussing a pretty hypothetical car here since we don't have any viable videos of the final product. With the GT3, things look quite differently but also keep in mind that the cars Chris Harris and other journalists tested were engineering mules so far. Do you have any guarantee that the final product will sound exactly like that? 

Same goes to the 991 Turbo S: The only somehow "usable" video is the one where you have 2-3 seconds of 991 Turbo sound. The mule videos from the Nordschleife are worthless since the cars there were...mules.

Bottom line is: One thing we know for sure. The 991 Turbo S will outrun the GT3 anytime and...everywhere. The Porsche time for the GT3 on the Nordschleife is 7:25 min (after 7:27...which was the same as the Turbo, so they tried again with Timo Kluck ). Now here's the catch: The GT3 was on semi-slicks, the 991 Turbo S on street tires. Now guess what would happen if they would test the 991 Turbo S with semi-slicks. You could easily shave off 3-5 seconds from that 7:27 time, beating the GT3 by a substantial margin.

To make my point: We can argue all day long about the Turbo and the GT3. The GT3 is a car for those who want to have some track fun too and it is also cheaper. The 991 Turbo S is kind of a do-it-all Porsche, fast on the street and on the track and it can easily be driven in rain and snow too. Of course the Turbo S is also more expensive.

Like I said many times (and others too) before: Two different cars for different people. If you think you are going to be happy with a GT3 in a larger city as a daily driver, you will be disappointed though. Any GT-R pilot will "kill" you from a stop light and you always have to pay attention when you enter a parking lot/parking garage/etc.. If you don't care, the GT3 will be just fine. 

Yes, I considered the GT3 and of course I am still thinking about this car, it is a wonderful product but in the end, I decided what is right for me and this is the 991 Turbo S. The only thing I really regret is not waiting for the Cab next summer but on the other hand, I wouldn't trust my wife with such a powerful car, so maybe it is better I went for the Coupe instead. I do not regret not getting the GT3 because it simply isn't the right car for me. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

You could easily shave off 3-5 seconds from that 7:27 time, beating the GT3 by a substantial margin.

 

I am not sure if different tires would bring an improvement IF the setup is not changed accordingly. It is well possible that just using Cup tires would even reduce the lap time...

Well, for a proper semi-slick tire chassis setup, I know a guy...  (hint: his son works for Porsche Motorsport).

Not needed though, I stick with the street tires since I have my experience with Michelin Cup tires on the street and they not only need temperature to be fun, they also "collect" a lot of dirt, which makes them pretty slippery (not that it isn't fun ) under certain circumstances.

Also, the 991 Turbo S is going to be easier to drive fast than the GT3, at least this is the typical setup Porsche usually gives these cars (which makes sense).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

jesse:

Whoopsy:

Porsche doesn't have a engine for the mid engine car, the boxer 6 is a non starter in that segment and the V8 from the Cayenne/Panamera is too big and heavy, the V8 in the 918 'could' work but it is too expensive...

That's not really true. They put already an Panamera V8 into a Cayman 

Who? 

 a PAG development team

Never heard of it but Weissach does a lot of experimental stuff, so everything is possible. 

Why should Porsche care about such a project? They used A8 shells for Panamera development and R8 shells for... 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

But the Turbo S is faster and I want to see the GT3 driver enjoying the car in the city, on a speed limited highway or on a speed limited country road: The GT3 engine needs revving to produce power and sound, so either you won't enjoy it or...you loose your driver license. The GT3 is the perfect track car but as a daily driver, I wouldn't be too sure about it. Also, the GT3 is no Autobahn car since even the "old" 997 Turbo (non S) destroys it on the Autobahn.

Nick, I can play this game all day long.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

NelsonF:

 

It seems the same dynamics/differences were at play with GT 3 and the turbo in the previous generation 996 and 997. Both offered such different and unique driving dynamics that I always missed in the other- won't bother rehasing the key differences as they are all well known. I went from Turbo to GT3 to GT2 to GT3RS because I missed the feel of the previous. Granted these cars were all manual tranny cars but I don't think the new PDK in the 991 variants will change the dynamic differences. Obviously, I have not experienced the 991 versions but look forward to it and don't expect to be too surprised relative to difference from my 996 and 997 experiences with these cars. My point is that ideally one should have both cars if possible in order to have the benefit of both. True, if I had to choose only one mostly for DD use, the Turbo/S would be the most practical and I don't need the autobahn capability in my part of the world. However, practical is not always my driving motivation for owning sports cars. Perhaps that is Porsche's plan. It seems to work on me.

 If I had the money, I would have a 991 Turbo S, a 991 GT3 (maybe even the RS variant) and a 991 Carrera 4S Cab with PDK and Powerkit  in my garage. All three cars would be unique in my opinion, completely different drive feel for completely different occasions.

Of course the 991 Turbo S Cab could be an interesting alternative to all three but I still think that the GT3 is too special in it's own, fascinating, way to be compared to the Turbo S.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Never heard of it but Weissach does a lot of experimental stuff, so everything is possible. 

Why should Porsche care about such a project? They used A8 shells for Panamera development and R8 shells for... 

So it is... sometimes its just a fun project, which is getting maybe upper management attention. I'm/was close to let one of the developers doing a 'small' conversion on my car, but that's another story...time will tell.

Here's some info on the upcoming Turbo/S cab...  http://www.autoblog.com/2013/07/16/2014-porsche-911-turbo-cabriolet-spotted-testing-in-the-nude/

Heads-up. Occasionally one needs to look around to see if you're still choppnig trees in the right forest.

Whilst certain snr members have been so engrossed in their own arguments, focussing only on what they deem to be important/interesting at the moment (is a turbo actually the same thing as a GT3? or why anyone considering a Boxster, Cayman, 993 or older Turbo should be scoffed at, albeit subtly with no respect for their taste), others may have noticed a dying forum. The guy that posts for the first time in 9 years get's a welcome along the lines of " (Unless of course you want to hear how bad the new Turbo is and how good older cars are (which you, as a 997 Turbo owner, could actually enjoy )" ?! ........ and no RC... you're not being quoted out of context and whilst, as you say, this board tolerates different opinions and "higher" debate I think you were out of line. Do you really think he enjoyed that remark? Healthy debate does not equate belittling or having the absolute last word of self justification on every topic.

Look at the rest of the boards - notice something? Look at the number of posts. When was the last time you saw any of the greats post an intereseting thread on this board? I do notice and follow some of them now on other boards.

Flame me as much as you like but I mean this as positive critisism. THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU. Occasioally one has to sit back for a moment and ponder what has changed or what should change to reinvigorate an enterprise. In the past I visited this board on a daily basis as I found it a good source of reliable information and genuinely enjoyed the comments, debates and views of a wide spread of posters on a wide range of topics. I sincerely hope I'm not watching a white dwarf.

Software issues persist. For an example, I am unable to post a new thread. Occasionally I have to recalibrate the read from the unread. It is difficult to post videos unlike other forums. It makes the participation on the board more difficult which I believe has led to attrition.

That said, I have no problem with vigorous debate even though at times some poster crosses the line. I saw the post by Leawood which I believe you are referring to. What he posted was almost nonsensical but I have come to expect that from him. Others may take his post much more seriously and feel they have to respond.

FWIW, RC can defend himself and it is not my intent to defend him. I am only giving you my take on the perception of what is happening on the board. IMO, it remains the definitive source for latest sport car information.