Crown

MKSGR:

I often thought, on the other hand, that this binary setup Porsche offers (normal/sport) just fits the GT2/GT3 concept best. Simple - and highlighting that this car is more mechanics than electronics  I never liked to use all these switches in the Ferraris. The more options, the more I am turned down by the car...

Let me guess: You don't like computers and gadgets too much either, right?

On a more serious note: People have changed. Porsche has to deal with the Playstation generation now and like it or not, we all are, to some extent, part of it.

Everything is about options nowadays: Give people options. Options to have a "raw" driving experience and options to have a more "safe" driving experience or even a "comfortable" one. I don't care if my car has several setup capabilities as long as I have fun with it. To each his own, so give us options and everybody is happy.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Let me guess: You don't like computers and gadgets too much either, right?

 

Only Apple products  They are easy to use 

MKSGR:

RC:

Let me guess: You don't like computers and gadgets too much either, right?

 

Only Apple products  They are easy to use 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Conrad2:

 

All my prior 911's always gave me a thrill each morning when I saw them, got in them and cranked them up.  The very best start up sound came from my 997.1S, before the direct fuel injection of the 997.2.  Wow what an array of sounds came out of that car when it cranked up.  The 997.2 was noticeably more muted and not as nice.

After 10 days with my 991S I got to the point where I almost had no interest in even getting into the car in the morning.  As I've stated before, it felt like I was getting into a small Panamera.  Starting the engine felt like switching on an electric motor almost.  No real cranking sound, just instant on.  I understand it has to be this way if you want the ridiculous start/ stop function for stop lights, but I don't like it.  What percent of 911 owners will have the stop/stop function active?  Would guess almost zero.  This was done for PC reasons by Porsche and given the relatively tiny numbers of 911's in the world and the fact no one uses it, there will be little effect on global warming!

I am a life long Porsche fan and don't want to come across like I am bashing them.  I am just concerned about the direction they are going with the 911.  It may just be me and a few others like me.  A lot of you seem to be crazy about the 991 and that's great. I only wish Porsche the best and I am hoping to rekindle my love affair with the 911 with the 991 TTS.

I see where you are coming from, and I have to admit I have kind of  same feelings or perception of the 991, especially compared to its predecessor.

For me the 997 was really a relief, compared to the unfortunate 996 series. Over time 997 series relly turned out to be stunning. Looking at the standrad versions (Carrera/S or turbo/s) and in particular all the editions (GTS / RS 4.0/ GT2RS / Speedster) Porsche really got it right.

In my opinion 991 is a great car...although in sense of Porsche 911 DNA a step back.

What is 911 DNA? Just curious?

The 996 was a milestone development vs. the 993 and the 997 was close to perfection.

Now the 991 has added a bit more comfort to the ride but at the same time, it is faster than all predecessors, so I really don't see any step back here.

Maybe if Porsche would start offering the GT3 with optional back seats, the complaints would tone down a little bit.

I also advice 991 buyers not to get the power steering plus option because it kind of tones down the typical 911 feel at lower speeds, for example in the city.

Also don't forget that the typical 911 driver isn't the Porsche nut like ourselves but very often some men in their 40-60s, who may even use the 911 as a daily driver and who appreciate the added comfort. Sometimes, when I am tired, I want to enjoy a harmless ride without having to suffer too much from a stiff and jaw hurting chassis. I guess that giving people options, like electronically adjustable chassis or even steering setups, is a good solution.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

IMO...Porsche 911 is

- a sportscar

- compeptitive on tracks ...the next day you can take your kid to school and head afetrwards to your office/job

- a design icon...clean design...timeless

- a raw guy, puristic drive, high performance, demnading, giving feedback to driver

- a dreamcatr for youngs boys and mature man. Beloved by Woman

Yes....991 suits that. Although... raw/puristic? To get a sportscar sound  the car needs soundprocessing. C´mon.... design...a little overloaded (turning/daylights/turbo back). Chromeline exterior...

IMO a huge mistake is that Porsche moves the 991 close to the Panamera (the interior)... Hard to believe that Panamera will count as contributor to Porsches heritage. Crossing the 911 with an other model never worked out.

Porsche was never shy on pricing...with 991 they overdone that. Especially if you see (on paper), what you get. 15hp more on Carrera S, 30 hp more on turbo s.  Not that impressing, or!?

996 a milestone...? Look at their pricing and standing in the used car market. That tells all. Same for 955 Cayenne. And in few months you see a lot 4 cylindre Macan turbo diesels take the Porsche badge to the mass market.

Agree with RC 100%...

Each 911 generation has been a exceptional advance forward, and 991 is the current apex...

The best Porsche is always the newest Porsche. That's how it has always been since 1948. No need to argue about this     established fact.

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

The best Porsche is always the newest Porsche. That's how it has always been since 1948. No need to argue about this     established fact.

--

"Form follows function"

No doubt about on that one, anything else would be a surprise.

996 was better than 993 based on facts/performance. So looking back, do you think that 996 was the right way? 

When I first saw the 997.1, I thought "this should have been the 993 follower, not the 996". So ideally the 993 should have been replaced by the 997.1.

The 996 was done with manufacturing economy in mind (Boxster front and interior sharing and fragile engines) at a time when Porsche was short of cash. However, the 996 was nothing but a modern car compared to the 993 and an advancement in terms of ride, wet handling, noise and comfort. 

--

"Form follows function"

kashmir:

Conrad2:

 

All my prior 911's always gave me a thrill each morning when I saw them, got in them and cranked them up.  The very best start up sound came from my 997.1S, before the direct fuel injection of the 997.2.  Wow what an array of sounds came out of that car when it cranked up.  The 997.2 was noticeably more muted and not as nice.

After 10 days with my 991S I got to the point where I almost had no interest in even getting into the car in the morning.  As I've stated before, it felt like I was getting into a small Panamera.  Starting the engine felt like switching on an electric motor almost.  No real cranking sound, just instant on.  I understand it has to be this way if you want the ridiculous start/ stop function for stop lights, but I don't like it.  What percent of 911 owners will have the stop/stop function active?  Would guess almost zero.  This was done for PC reasons by Porsche and given the relatively tiny numbers of 911's in the world and the fact no one uses it, there will be little effect on global warming!

I am a life long Porsche fan and don't want to come across like I am bashing them.  I am just concerned about the direction they are going with the 911.  It may just be me and a few others like me.  A lot of you seem to be crazy about the 991 and that's great. I only wish Porsche the best and I am hoping to rekindle my love affair with the 911 with the 991 TTS.

 

I see where you are coming from, and I have to admit I have kind of  same feelings or perception of the 991, especially compared to its predecessor.

For me the 997 was really a relief, compared to the unfortunate 996 series. Over time 997 series relly turned out to be stunning. Looking at the standrad versions (Carrera/S or turbo/s) and in particular all the editions (GTS / RS 4.0/ GT2RS / Speedster) Porsche really got it right.

In my opinion 991 is a great car...although in sense of Porsche 911 DNA a step back.

 

 

kashmir,

You summed things up better than I did.  It's not about liking or not liking ventilated seats or other comforts, or not liking a smoother ride for daily commute (I love the 12C S Class ride setting), its about the shifting DNA.  People either get it or don't.

If the steering feel of the 991 comes close to the Panamera the the 991 is toast... The Panamera is so dissaponting as a sporty sedan...

kashmir:

IMO...Porsche 911 is

- a sportscar

- compeptitive on tracks ...the next day you can take your kid to school and head afetrwards to your office/job

- a design icon...clean design...timeless

- a raw guy, puristic drive, high performance, demnading, giving feedback to driver

- a dreamcatr for youngs boys and mature man. Beloved by Woman

Yes....991 suits that. Although... raw/puristic? To get a sportscar sound  the car needs soundprocessing. C´mon.... design...a little overloaded (turning/daylights/turbo back). Chromeline exterior...

IMO a huge mistake is that Porsche moves the 991 close to the Panamera (the interior)... Hard to believe that Panamera will count as contributor to Porsches heritage. Crossing the 911 with an other model never worked out.

Porsche was never shy on pricing...with 991 they overdone that. Especially if you see (on paper), what you get. 15hp more on Carrera S, 30 hp more on turbo s.  Not that impressing, or!?

996 a milestone...? Look at their pricing and standing in the used car market. That tells all. Same for 955 Cayenne. And in few months you see a lot 4 cylindre Macan turbo diesels take the Porsche badge to the mass market.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the interior concept of the 991 came from the Carrera GT interior and not from the Panamera as you state!

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

ag23:

kashmir:

IMO...Porsche 911 is

- a sportscar

- compeptitive on tracks ...the next day you can take your kid to school and head afetrwards to your office/job

- a design icon...clean design...timeless

- a raw guy, puristic drive, high performance, demnading, giving feedback to driver

- a dreamcatr for youngs boys and mature man. Beloved by Woman

 

Yes....991 suits that. Although... raw/puristic? To get a sportscar sound  the car needs soundprocessing. C´mon.... design...a little overloaded (turning/daylights/turbo back). Chromeline exterior...

IMO a huge mistake is that Porsche moves the 991 close to the Panamera (the interior)... Hard to believe that Panamera will count as contributor to Porsches heritage. Crossing the 911 with an other model never worked out.

Porsche was never shy on pricing...with 991 they overdone that. Especially if you see (on paper), what you get. 15hp more on Carrera S, 30 hp more on turbo s.  Not that impressing, or!?

996 a milestone...? Look at their pricing and standing in the used car market. That tells all. Same for 955 Cayenne. And in few months you see a lot 4 cylindre Macan turbo diesels take the Porsche badge to the mass market.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the interior concept of the 991 came from the Carrera GT interior and not from the Panamera as you state!

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

I have to agree with the cabin getting too big. Growing up my dad cycled through 9 or 10 911's. One of my fondest memories was rubbing elbows while he was driving. It was very intimate (not sexually obviously), just the two of you in a little cocoon. You don't get that with the new ones... 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Mithras:

I have to agree with the cabin getting too big... rubbing elbows while he was driving. It was very intimate , just the two of you in a little cocoon. You don't get that with the new ones... 

Try the 12C. This is exactly what you get

Mithras:

I have to agree with the cabin getting too big. Growing up my dad cycled through 9 or 10 911's. One of my fondest memories was rubbing elbows while he was driving. It was very intimate (not sexually obviously), just the two of you in a little cocoon. You don't get that with the new ones... 

Exactly! Exactly ! Exactly!  And I ask why?!!  What was the point in doing it?  What market segment were they targeting with this move?  300 lbs. NFL tackles?   Who gets in a 991 and says "wow at last I have some real elbow room - I was just so cramped in the 997's, now I think I can live with this car".  This sort of thing gets to the DNA of a car, as mentioned above.  A sports car should not feel like a small sedan inside regardless of lap times.  

ag23:

ag23:

kashmir:

IMO...Porsche 911 is

- a sportscar

- compeptitive on tracks ...the next day you can take your kid to school and head afetrwards to your office/job

- a design icon...clean design...timeless

- a raw guy, puristic drive, high performance, demnading, giving feedback to driver

- a dreamcatr for youngs boys and mature man. Beloved by Woman

 

Yes....991 suits that. Although... raw/puristic? To get a sportscar sound  the car needs soundprocessing. C´mon.... design...a little overloaded (turning/daylights/turbo back). Chromeline exterior...

IMO a huge mistake is that Porsche moves the 991 close to the Panamera (the interior)... Hard to believe that Panamera will count as contributor to Porsches heritage. Crossing the 911 with an other model never worked out.

Porsche was never shy on pricing...with 991 they overdone that. Especially if you see (on paper), what you get. 15hp more on Carrera S, 30 hp more on turbo s.  Not that impressing, or!?

996 a milestone...? Look at their pricing and standing in the used car market. That tells all. Same for 955 Cayenne. And in few months you see a lot 4 cylindre Macan turbo diesels take the Porsche badge to the mass market.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the interior concept of the 991 came from the Carrera GT interior and not from the Panamera as you state!

 

If this is the case, then it means the Panamera interior concept came from the Carrera GT as well, because the 991 and Panamera have the same interior look down to, I think, some interchangeable parts.  I had them both sitting next to each other in my garage and they are basically the same.

Conrad2:

 

Exactly! Exactly ! Exactly!  And I ask why?!!  What was the point in doing it?  What market segment were they targeting with this move?  300 lbs. NFL tackles?   Who gets in a 991 and says "wow at last I have some real elbow room - I was just so cramped in the 997's, now I think I can live with this car".  This sort of thing gets to the DNA of a car, as mentioned above.  A sports car should not feel like a small sedan inside regardless of lap times.  

I remember how my father always said : I like the Porsche but they have 2 problems , that's why I will not buy one : they are too tight inside and too dam uncomfortable to drive .

That's why he always ended buying a BMW

I guess, the 991 is now getting close to these king of potential buyers  

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

SciFrog:

If the steering feel of the 991 comes close to the Panamera the the 991 is toast... The Panamera is so dissaponting as a sporty sedan...

I disagree. The Panamera Turbo S is an amazing sports sedan, so is the GTS (sound, chassis, steering setup) but the majority of customers seem to buy the Diesel. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Mithras:

I have to agree with the cabin getting too big. Growing up my dad cycled through 9 or 10 911's. One of my fondest memories was rubbing elbows while he was driving. It was very intimate (not sexually obviously), just the two of you in a little cocoon. You don't get that with the new ones... 

Seriously? 

Let me give you an example: A guy in his classic 911 (or was it even a 356?) had an accident at slightly below 50 kph. The steering column killed him. Some while ago, I saw a wrecked 991 at my dealer, the car was totaled. Driver and co-driver survived with only small injuries, car crashed at around 180 kph and hit two other cars and the middle guardrail on the Autobahn.

I do not like classic cars. The reason is simple: They suck. Bigtime. They drive like sh.t (with very little exceptions) vs. their modern counterpart and they aren't safe. Even if you are the hell of a driver and do everything fine, another driver can be your dead certificate. Just imagine a Cayenne crashing into a classic 911... 

Sorry, I do not miss my first Porsche, a 993 Targa, at all. Not even for a tiny bit of moment.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Conrad2:

Exactly! Exactly ! Exactly!  And I ask why?!!  What was the point in doing it?  What market segment were they targeting with this move?  300 lbs. NFL tackles?   Who gets in a 991 and says "wow at last I have some real elbow room - I was just so cramped in the 997's, now I think I can live with this car".  This sort of thing gets to the DNA of a car, as mentioned above.  A sports car should not feel like a small sedan inside regardless of lap times.  

Porsche didn't make the 991 bigger without a reason. I also don't think that the difference between the 997 and the 991 is that big and I really like the new 991 interior much more than the 997 interior. The 997 interior is actually an improved 996 interior, it was about time to have something completely new.

I actually love it to have a less cramped interior, it makes me feel better and more secure. Yes, small sports cars with even smaller interiors had their advantages...if you wanted to hook up with the babe sitting next to you  but otherwise, I cannot see any advantage, I'm sorry.

You guys sound like people who are still using 5-10 year old Nokia or Motorola clamshell phones and curse everything related to the word "smartphone". Move on, guys...this is the 21st century.  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Conrad2:

Exactly! Exactly ! Exactly!  And I ask why?!!  What was the point in doing it?  What market segment were they targeting with this move?  300 lbs. NFL tackles?   Who gets in a 991 and says "wow at last I have some real elbow room - I was just so cramped in the 997's, now I think I can live with this car".  This sort of thing gets to the DNA of a car, as mentioned above.  A sports car should not feel like a small sedan inside regardless of lap times.  

Porsche didn't make the 991 bigger without a reason. I also don't think that the difference between the 997 and the 991 is that big and I really like the new 991 interior much more than the 997 interior. The 997 interior is actually an improved 996 interior, it was about time to have something completely new.

I actually love it to have a less cramped interior, it makes me feel better and more secure. Yes, small sports cars with even smaller interiors had their advantages...if you wanted to hook up with the babe sitting next to you  but otherwise, I cannot see any advantage, I'm sorry.

You guys sound like people who are still using 5-10 year old Nokia or Motorola clamshell phones and curse everything related to the word "smartphone". Move on, guys...this is the 21st century.  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

New is not necessarily better or the right thing to choose. Picking up your phone example. I am an iPhone user from introduction. I have currently 2 in use, 4S and 5. Which do I prefer...the 4S. Thats the real thing.

Its not about usage of more cabin room. I am more about which way Porche is going. Impression is that any car mnufacturer could build a car like the Panamera...nothing really outstanding. The 911 should separate from that path. The 911 should stand on its own. The more and more comfort GT route isn´t the right hink IMO. As said before...a 911 needs a processor for its sound. Come on...

kashmir:

New is not necessarily better or the right thing to choose. Picking up your phone example. I am an iPhone user from introduction. I have currently 2 in use, 4S and 5. Which do I prefer...the 4S. Thats the real thing.

Let me see: The iPhone 5 is lighter, faster, has a bigger display and reception and battery life are better too. You still prefer the 4S? Well...  I'm a registered Apple developer, using iOS7 on my iPhone 5 and even if I'm not a big fan of iOS7, I use it on a daily basis and I kind of get the idea behind it. Would I use the iPhone 4S again? Never. My daughter and my son have one and each time I use it, I tell myself: What they heck, this thing is so heavy and slow and the display is so small... 

Its not about usage of more cabin room. I am more about which way Porche is going. Impression is that any car mnufacturer could build a car like the Panamera...nothing really outstanding. The 911 should separate from that path. The 911 should stand on its own. The more and more comfort GT route isn´t the right hink IMO. As said before...a 911 needs a processor for its sound. Come on...

If every car manufacturer could build a car like the Panamera, they would. The Panamera Turbo S does the Nordschleife in 7:52 Min. and I have friends who have serious problems to follow me in their 911...including a 997 GT3 RS. I am not talking straight line here. So Porsche must have been doing something right. 

I haven't driven the 991 Turbo S yet (with some luck, I may be able to do that before I get my car) but I have driven the 991 Carrera S on various occasions. I like this car so much that I almost got one but later on decided against it because the moment the GT3 or the Turbo would show up, I would regret it and I was right to wait. The Panamera Turbo S feels a little bit like a 991 Carrera S in curves but in reality, it doesn't come even close to the drive and feel of the 911. This is why I actually give the PTS away because it cannot replace a 911...unfortunately.

To make it short: I disagree completely with your claim and comparing the Panamera with the 991 Carrera S is really exaggerated. These cars have nothing in common when it comes to drive feel and driving sensation. I wish they did, it would have saved me a lot of money. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Mithras:

I have to agree with the cabin getting too big. Growing up my dad cycled through 9 or 10 911's. One of my fondest memories was rubbing elbows while he was driving. It was very intimate (not sexually obviously), just the two of you in a little cocoon. You don't get that with the new ones... 

Seriously? 

Let me give you an example: A guy in his classic 911 (or was it even a 356?) had an accident at slightly below 50 kph. The steering column killed him. Some while ago, I saw a wrecked 991 at my dealer, the car was totaled. Driver and co-driver survived with only small injuries, car crashed at around 180 kph and hit two other cars and the middle guardrail on the Autobahn.

I do not like classic cars. The reason is simple: They suck. Bigtime. They drive like sh.t (with very little exceptions) vs. their modern counterpart and they aren't safe. Even if you are the hell of a driver and do everything fine, another driver can be your dead certificate. Just imagine a Cayenne crashing into a classic 911... 

Sorry, I do not miss my first Porsche, a 993 Targa, at all. Not even for a tiny bit of moment.

Let me tell you a story. My dad's prized triple black 1986 911 Cab. Cold day in late October. My dad being silly booting around deserted streets in the stockyard district with a friend of his who was looking to buy a 911. There was a level train track crossing just off a 4 way intersection and the railway's crossing sign at the corner kept getting hit and knocked over. Looking back at it there was always grease and animal crap on the road that made it really slick, especially in the cold. So the railway drove a rail 12 feet down and kept 3 feet above ground in front of the sign so it wouldn't get knocked over. The car hit the rail at about 120kph, right at the passenger's thigh.

When the crane pulled the car off it was bent on all three axis to the point where the left front and right rear wheels touched the ground and the other two were more than 9 inches off the ground. The roof was pulled back about 6 inches from the front latches. 

The drivers side door could be opened (not closed though). My father was unhurt and the passenger had a bruised elbow. 

80's Carerra's were some of the strongest cars I've ever seen. Cheap to run as well. Stick snow tires on them and they could beat a mountain goat. I remember reading a news article where an irate wife shot at her cheating husband with a large caliber revolver. Didn't make it through the door. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

RC:

kashmir:

New is not necessarily better or the right thing to choose. Picking up your phone example. I am an iPhone user from introduction. I have currently 2 in use, 4S and 5. Which do I prefer...the 4S. Thats the real thing.

Let me see: The iPhone 5 is lighter, faster, has a bigger display and reception and battery life are better too. You still prefer the 4S? Well...  I'm a registered Apple developer, using iOS7 on my iPhone 5 and even if I'm not a big fan of iOS7, I use it on a daily basis and I kind of get the idea behind it. Would I use the iPhone 4S again? Never. My daughter and my son have one and each time I use it, I tell myself: What they heck, this thing is so heavy and slow and the display is so small... 

On the iPhone 4S/5 its a matter of taste. In real life usage (off wifi) I don´t recognize speed difference. Maybe due to the different telcos. iOS7 is available to a large audience of BETA users. Something Steve would have never done, same applies for the size of the iPhone5 or iPad Mini. 

RC:

kashmir:

Its not about usage of more cabin room. I am more about which way Porche is going. Impression is that any car mnufacturer could build a car like the Panamera...nothing really outstanding. The 911 should separate from that path. The 911 should stand on its own. The more and more comfort GT route isn´t the right hink IMO. As said before...a 911 needs a processor for its sound. Come on...

If every car manufacturer could build a car like the Panamera, they would. The Panamera Turbo S does the Nordschleife in 7:52 Min. and I have friends who have serious problems to follow me in their 911...including a 997 GT3 RS. I am not talking straight line here. So Porsche must have been doing something right. 

I haven't driven the 991 Turbo S yet (with some luck, I may be able to do that before I get my car) but I have driven the 991 Carrera S on various occasions. I like this car so much that I almost got one but later on decided against it because the moment the GT3 or the Turbo would show up, I would regret it and I was right to wait. The Panamera Turbo S feels a little bit like a 991 Carrera S in curves but in reality, it doesn't come even close to the drive and feel of the 911. This is why I actually give the PTS away because it cannot replace a 911...unfortunately.

To make it short: I disagree completely with your claim and comparing the Panamera with the 991 Carrera S is really exaggerated. These cars have nothing in common when it comes to drive feel and driving sensation. I wish they did, it would have saved me a lot of money. 

Take off the Porsche badge...whats left from Porsche DNA on a Panamera...!? Heavy machine, lot off electronic, lack of leightweight, lack of timeless design.  Nothing which made Porsch famous. On facts M6 GC or CLS/E63 is the better deal, for that 98% of sedan drivers only seeing the Nordschleife when parking there.

You cannot deny that Porsche moved 911 with the 991 range towards the Panamera GT style. Time will tell if that was the right thing to do.

You see the complaints on GT3 (engine / no manual gear) and the turbo introduction wasn´t short of disappointments either.

Don´t take me wrong...991 is still a great car, especially the GT/turbo variants. Just a little questionmark on the direction Porsche is taking here and overall (Macan = yes / 960 = questionable).

Mithras:

RC:

Mithras:

I have to agree with the cabin getting too big. Growing up my dad cycled through 9 or 10 911's. One of my fondest memories was rubbing elbows while he was driving. It was very intimate (not sexually obviously), just the two of you in a little cocoon. You don't get that with the new ones... 

Seriously? 

Let me give you an example: A guy in his classic 911 (or was it even a 356?) had an accident at slightly below 50 kph. The steering column killed him. Some while ago, I saw a wrecked 991 at my dealer, the car was totaled. Driver and co-driver survived with only small injuries, car crashed at around 180 kph and hit two other cars and the middle guardrail on the Autobahn.

I do not like classic cars. The reason is simple: They suck. Bigtime. They drive like sh.t (with very little exceptions) vs. their modern counterpart and they aren't safe. Even if you are the hell of a driver and do everything fine, another driver can be your dead certificate. Just imagine a Cayenne crashing into a classic 911... 

Sorry, I do not miss my first Porsche, a 993 Targa, at all. Not even for a tiny bit of moment.

Let me tell you a story. My dad's prized triple black 1986 911 Cab. Cold day in late October. My dad being silly booting around deserted streets in the stockyard district with a friend of his who was looking to buy a 911. There was a level train track crossing just off a 4 way intersection and the railway's crossing sign at the corner kept getting hit and knocked over. Looking back at it there was always grease and animal crap on the road that made it really slick, especially in the cold. So the railway drove a rail 12 feet down and kept 3 feet above ground in front of the sign so it wouldn't get knocked over. The car hit the rail at about 120kph, right at the passenger's thigh.

When the crane pulled the car off it was bent on all three axis to the point where the left front and right rear wheels touched the ground and the other two were more than 9 inches off the ground. The roof was pulled back about 6 inches from the front latches. 

The drivers side door could be opened (not closed though). My father was unhurt and the passenger had a bruised elbow. 

80's Carerra's were some of the strongest cars I've ever seen. Cheap to run as well. Stick snow tires on them and they could beat a mountain goat. I remember reading a news article where an irate wife shot at her cheating husband with a large caliber revolver. Didn't make it through the door. 

Like that story.   Passive safety was always high on Porsches agenda.   Good for your dad!

Mithras:

Let me tell you a story. My dad's prized triple black 1986 911 Cab. Cold day in late October. My dad being silly booting around deserted streets in the stockyard district with a friend of his who was looking to buy a 911. There was a level train track crossing just off a 4 way intersection and the railway's crossing sign at the corner kept getting hit and knocked over. Looking back at it there was always grease and animal crap on the road that made it really slick, especially in the cold. So the railway drove a rail 12 feet down and kept 3 feet above ground in front of the sign so it wouldn't get knocked over. The car hit the rail at about 120kph, right at the passenger's thigh.

When the crane pulled the car off it was bent on all three axis to the point where the left front and right rear wheels touched the ground and the other two were more than 9 inches off the ground. The roof was pulled back about 6 inches from the front latches. 

The drivers side door could be opened (not closed though). My father was unhurt and the passenger had a bruised elbow. 

80's Carerra's were some of the strongest cars I've ever seen. Cheap to run as well. Stick snow tires on them and they could beat a mountain goat. I remember reading a news article where an irate wife shot at her cheating husband with a large caliber revolver. Didn't make it through the door. 

Nice story....glad your dad made it...he was lucky. Nothing more and nothing else.

Don't tell me about how safe older 911s are or were because I've seen many many accidents in these cars and trust me, not many of them were as lucky as your dad was.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

kashmir:

 

Take off the Porsche badge...whats left from Porsche DNA on a Panamera...!? Heavy machine, lot off electronic, lack of leightweight, lack of timeless design.  Nothing which made Porsch famous. On facts M6 GC or CLS/E63 is the better deal, for that 98% of sedan drivers only seeing the Nordschleife when parking there.

Seriously, if you say that a M6 GC or the CLS has a timeless design, then you should come here again in ten years. I see the first gen CLS quite often over here in Bavaria and I cannot imagine a more hideous car. The same will happen with the M6 GC but at least BMW got it better than Mercedes.

The Panamera Turbo S is a very special car and I'm not saying this because I got one. Same goes to the Panamera GTS, which amazes lots of drivers (unfortunately Porsche decided to give it an inadequate engine in my opinion...).

I never considered the BMW or Mercedes. I am performance driven, I need to have the maximum performance in a package, the BMW and Mercedes just don't cut it for me. 

You cannot deny that Porsche moved 911 with the 991 range towards the Panamera GT style. Time will tell if that was the right thing to do.

Are you serious?  I can't see anything which would remind me of the Panamera. Nothing. The interior is the new Porsche interior (Carrera GT introduced it to some extent, Panamera, Cayenne, Macan...they will all have it). Every interior looks different but you recognize...Porsche.

You see the complaints on GT3 (engine / no manual gear) and the turbo introduction wasn´t short of disappointments either.

Same complaints when 996 was introduced, when 997 was introduced (not so much but it happened a lot when Porsche decided to abandon the Mezger engine in the Turbo/Turbo S) and the cars always got MUCH better. No worries here. 

Don´t take me wrong...991 is still a great car, especially the GT/turbo variants. Just a little questionmark on the direction Porsche is taking here and overall (Macan = yes / 960 = questionable).

I'm not a friend of the Macan, I agree on this one. The reason is obvious: The Macan will attract a client group which never considered a Porsche before. This creates a lot of problems, not only for drivers of a 991 Turbo S like me but also for the dealers. Or do you seriously expect that a dealer treats a Turbo S buyer the same way he treats a Macan Diesel buyer? I doubt it and this is where the problems start. On the other hand, I can understand why Porsche wanted the Macan, also be aware that with the Macan, Porsche will have less pressure from environmental laws and rules. How could Porsche build hp and performance monsters without worrying about environmental legislation?

Please read this article (in German), so you understand. This is also one of the reasons Porsche made the 911 longer.

http://www.ftd.de/unternehmen/industrie/:umweltauflagen-schonfrist-fuer-porsche-im-us-abgasstreit/50097008.html

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)