Crown

Mc Laren is paying the price of a botched launch. The car was not as good as they claimed it would be. Plus it is not really pretty...

GT3ZZZ:

 

Have you ever visited the MTC/MPC and seen the investment? I have never seen a car factory like it.

And there will never be another one like that. It looks REALLY nice but it's not a very efficient factory as it is set up right now, parts and cars crisscross the floor. Even if the demands are there, they will be hard pressed to make much more than 12 cars a day, that's 4300-4400 a year. but at that price point, selling 4000 is a wishful thinking as the market is crowded with the big elephant 458 soaking up most of the orders. 

Right now they don't have a clock for each station, they finish when they finish, and they also do a complete CNC measuring for each chassis, that takes a lot of time too. 

absent:

Let's compare apples to apples,the base price of Mclaren is $70k higher then 991TTS here in US.

Comparing used,depreciated,ordered and deflowered by some other guy car to a brand new,virgin one does not make sense to most of us here.

For regular,daily use,Porsche has no peer in practicality,ease of use and full performance accessibility that ANY Ferrari or Mclaren can't even dream of.

The latter one has very small cabin and the stupid door is mounted at an idiotic angle that any normal sized guy has to make an origami of himself when entering or exiting.

Makes you look like a real schmuck when in public and embarrassing to your wife/girlfriend when she wears some sexy outfit.

Yes,on paper it may have slightly better numbers but in real world the story is totally different.....

Just my 2 cents.......(and I am a long time Ferrari guy......)

 

 

 

true and false. true if you are going to pay cash for it then yes a new MP4 is about 70k more than a new S, but some people like myself and RC like to lease our cars for whatever reasons and the MSRP doesnt mean squat to us, its all about monthly payment. yes the MP4s  I mentioned earlier are used, with only a few hundred miles and they are very close in price to a new S, but how about this: Mclaren of newport beach right now has 2 lease offers, one on a 2012 new coupe MSRP of 269k, over 42 months and 10k down at 3100/month. the other offer is for a new 2013 MP4 spider MSRP of 307k, over 5 years and zero down!, at 3333/month. this means a residual of 52% for the coupe at 42 months and a residual of 47% for the spider at 5 years.

how much residual do you think the 991 turbo S will have? my 2007 TT had a residual of 52% at 5 years back in 2006 but things have changed a lot and last year's 997.2 S had a 5 year residual of guess how much: a crappy 32%!! and that info comes straight form my dealer. what do you think the lease payment would be on a 190K S over 5 years at 33% residual if that stays the same? maybe the 991 will have a better residual but right now leasing an S for me is going to be as expensive as leasing a much more expensive car, assuming one likes them both.

--

2011 CTT

2005 F430

2010 Audi S5

Whoopsy:

Hmm, while I only have the 997 Turbo S and not the 991, I also have the McLaren, I think I am qualify to add a couple cents haha. I am facing kind of the same choice, not choosing which one to buy but which one to keep when my 918 arrives.

Apart from the constant stares and questions when driving the McLaren, it pretty much behaves like the Turbo S in normal everyday driving, something I can live with driving everyday.

The Porsche does have more cargo room, I can fit 2 sets of golf clubs behind the front seat while I had to put 1 set next to me in the McLaren.

Porsche has the edge with awd in foul weather, but the TC in the McLaren is so good it's a not issue outside of snow. 

Gearbox in the MP4-12C is the exact same one in the 458, they just have different software for obvious reasons. But it pretty feels just like the Porsche one, almost a wash but has a slight edge as it's more eager to downshift when in auto mode, while the one in the Turbo S prefer to hang on to a higher gear for a split second longer.

Build quality is also a wash, panel gaps, fit and finish on both cars are the same, somewhat a surprise, given the MP4-12C is largely hand build car and should be inferior to the more robot intensive build of the Porsche.

Aftersales support is biased towards the Porsche, I am a long time customer of the dealer so naturally I get better service. 

Porsche has more low end grunt but the McLaren just keeps pulling till 8500rpm, I like both.

Like the Porsche, the McLaren is made to be driven everyday and won't complaint, unlike Ferrari which are made to be parked in the garage for fear of break downs and depreciations. Over the last 6 months of ownership, I had conversations with other owners, pretty much everyone pick the MP4-12C over the 458 or traded in a 458 for the McLaren, 3 most common reasons were the doors, it's faster, sick of the Ferrari dealership treatment. 

While I loved both cars, the decision would have been a lot easier for me had the McLaren had conventional doors, I would have kept the Porsche fore sure, but that door. It's so iconic and unique, It's what I felt in love with.  With conventional doors the McLaren would just be like any other normal sports car like the 458 or the Gallardo, one that people won't get emotionally attached.

Yesterday I took the McLaren to pick up my son from school, as it happens another parent also pulled up in a 458 next to me, in any other circumstances all the kids would be gather around his car, not yesterday, no one pays any attention to the 458, as it was invisible and it wasn't there. We had a chat, he told me while he got the car not too long ago he just realized he bought the wrong car. His own son even sat in my car and turn to his dad and said dad can be buy this car instead?

As a 997 Turbo S and McLaren 12C spider owner, and with a 991 Turbo S on order, and having owned multiple Ferrari’s with F430 being last and having spent some time in the 458, just wanted to add a few observations to those of Whoopsy.  I don’t post much but do especially enjoy reading this forum because of the expertise of most of the posters here and for the bare minimum of fan boy posts.  Also, it appears everyone here tries not to BS each other too much about the various cars that compete with Porsche.  So I think it important that we have a very clear view of the reality of the 12C. 

McLaren made the terrible marketing mistake of providing cars to the car mags before it was finished, with the press cars having sub 600 hp engines and sub optimized gear shift and stability software, vs the current cars having a full 615 hp, and greatly improved software. Some owners are now thinking McLaren may be pulling a Porsche and underestimating actual hp.  Someone recently took a 12C spider to over 211 mph.  Zero to sixty  has been done in 2.7 seconds. Bottom line you can ignore to a great degree early car mag articles on the 12C.

First, with the exception of the gear box manufacturer mistake, I think Whoopsy is right on target with his comments.  Regarding his dealer experience comment, I would add that my experience with McLaren dealers has been exceptional.  I have owned at least a dozen Porsches, multiple Astons, Mercedes and Ferraris and have some good dealer experiences, but done that were as good as the McLaren dealer experience here in the US that I dealt with.  McLaren seems to be making an enormous effort to provide a superior dealer experience, which doesn’t mean there haven’t been some failures along the way.

Second the 12C is a car that must be seen in person.  A two dimensional picture simply doesn’t work very well.  You have to see it in 3D.  Individual tastes vary, but I think the things look pretty spectacular.  There are so many more subtle curves to the body than you see in a 458 or 911.  Had one guy walk up to it at a service station and all he said, over and over, was “unbelievable.”  As an engineer by training, I also like that everything about the car is truly form follows function.  No bauble anywhere.

What they have done with the spider is simply without precedent.  I have had many spiders over the years and got rid of all of them, because I hated the flex they all had.   And I mean all in every brand.  The 12C spider has no flex, just like the coupe.  If you put both on a test jig you might tease out 1% or 2% more flex, but it is absolutely undetectable when driving them.  Plus, in my view it’s the first spider that actually is better looking than the coupe and only weighs 80 lbs more.  The only way to achieve this without excessive weight is with a carbon fiber tub.

It is harder to get in, no doubt, but with a little practice it becomes second nature.  If I were getting in and out 20 or 30 times a day, then I would take my Turbo that day.  No doubt they attract attention when they flip up.  Once inside, the seating position is superb and the view out the front is terrific.  Chris Harris described it as feeling almost like you can see your feet.  Due to the fender design the 12C looks  narrower than a 458 when sitting in it, which visually makes it feel more nimble than the 458.  The 12C cabin does feel smaller than the 458 which I like.  A problem I have with the 991 is that it has 7 inches more shoulder room than my 997, which makes it fell less “cozy”.  Don’t want my sports car to feel like a sedan inside.  I also like sitting nearer the centerline of the car in the 12C – it does make a difference as to the feel of where the car is on the road.  I was in the process of getting a 458 when I kind of stumbled into a 12C.  The two things that really tipped my decision to the 12C was the seating position/view out front and the obvious power difference.  I still have enough teenager in me that I hate the thought of being at a stop light next to a car in the same class, knowing the guy can show me his tail lights if he wants.  As commented on below, pretty much ain’t gonna happen to you in a 12C.

The range of suspension settings is also without precedent in the sports car world.  It can range from Mercedes S class comfort to a hard track setting.  This is no BS and you have to experience it to believe it. 

The exhaust note is less frantic compared to the 458 due to the turbos but is vastly better than my 997 Turbo S (which isn’t saying much I know).  If it were any louder I am not sure I would keep it.  At idle it sounds and feels like a big American V8 muscle car to my ear.  At a stop light you feel like you are vibrating all the cars around you.  It projects a rather massive presence.

Finally, regarding performance, don’t fool yourself with saying things like “well it’s only a few “tenths”  In real life, on the street with stock customer cars, nothing short of a Aventador or Veyron is going to keep up with a 12C.  Many videos on line now showing 458’s and 911 Turbo S’s taking on the 12C and the 12C simply walks away from them – from a standing start, from a rolling start, from any start.  Guys are getting 10.3 and 135 mph in the quarter mile with their stock cars.  One guy over on the McLaren forum has put in 7,000 track miles all over Europe in his 12C.  His only complaint now is that nobody will race him anymore in the 12C other than full race cars with slicks, so he brings 2 or 3 cars to the track in order to really enjoy himself.  Another fellow with multiple Ferraris, Porsches and a 12C, calls the 12C  his +10 car meaning he can take curves 10 mph faster in the 12C than the others.

The 12C does represent the next generation of sports cars with the carbon tub and trick suspension.  This doesn’t mean everybody will like it.  The 991 is way advanced over the 997 but I am still a little worried if I will like it better for reasons I have stated in other posts.

Is McLaren going to make it as a going concern?  I don’t know to be frank.  They may or may not.  Their marketing has been terrible and if they don’t turn it around it will sink them.  Reliability wise the car itself is pretty much bullet proof (7,000 track miles with no major problems!!  Try that with your 458), except for the gps navigation system, radio and Bluetooth capability which is still evolving and which I don’t care about in the least, but others do.  They will get it fixed eventually and update all the cars.

I apologize for the long post.  I just got tired of reading so many uninformed posts about the car that were obviously based on some car mag review the poster read somewhere, or was a regurgitation of something they read over on FerrariChat.  There are only about 2,700 of these cars in the world being driven around and a lot of the owners don’t participate in forums.  So after reading Whoopsy’s post I felt that I should also step forward and take some time to do a post, rather than just gripe about the misinformation about the car.  I dislike hyperbole, but it’s hard to resist declaring this car to be simply epic.

As far as comparing it to the 991 Turbo, not sure it is really fair.  The 12C spider is around a $300,000 car and only small discounts are generally available.  The 2012 used coupes going for around $200,000 are the result of a real marketing foul-up that would take another long post to explain.  It’s fair to say that they represent an unusual opportunity for anyone interested in the car. 

Here comes the McLaren invasion, now this thread has been thoroughly hijacked. lol

But very good post Conrad :)

GT3ZZZ:

reginos:

McLaren have acquired more credibility and goodwill compared to the various limited production supercar brands that have come and gone, due to the F1 car and the F1 Team.

Whether this will prove sufficient for the  McLaren ambitious project to survive  and to become an established roadcar brand, is doubtful IMO. In the 21st century car manufacture is too expensive and complex for a minor independent player. It will be interesting to follow up their fortunes. 

 

 

Have you ever visited the MTC/MPC and seen the investment? I have never seen a car factory like it.

Will they be able to recoup this investment, as a small independent manufacturer? This is the question. Sales so far are below target, according to the Press.

"Form follows function"

Thanks Conrad2, I love these kinds of posts 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

I don't own a McLaren and yes, I am very biased towards Porsche, no doubt about it, especially since I have a 991 Turbo S on order. Let me throw in my two cents on this: First, I am surprised to hear that McLaren doesn't have a huge success with the MP4-12C, which is surprising for me. I never followed their sales figures, so I don't know but the truth is, the MP4-12C is an amazing offer compared to the competition and yes, there is nothing short of an Aventador or Veyron to be faster or at least keep up with the MP4-12C.

Frankly, the MP4-12C performance is actually the one I would have loved to see from "my" car manufacturer, Porsche. They advertise the new 991 Turbo/Turbo S as a benchmark but then, when I read their claim closely, they actually say that it is their "own" benchmark. Not sure if this makes sense since the new Turbo/Turbo S is slower than the 997 GT2 RS, an "old" car which was part of the 911 model family. Anyways: Yes, the new Turbo S is faster than the Carrera GT (an argument I hear very often when I argue with Porsche people about the new Turbo S) and with the same tires, it would even outrun the new GT3 on the track but since when is the 991 Turbo S a track car? I mean it is no secret that the "typical" 911 Turbo S is fast but nobody actually buys it as a track car. What remains is straight line performance and this is where the benchmark needs to be set for the Turbo S. This is where the new Turbo S actually disappoints if the factory claim is true.

Yes, under real life driving conditions, the new Turbo S may do 0-100 kph in 2.9 or 3.0 seconds (factory claim is 3.1) and 0-200 kph in 9.9 or 10.0 seconds (factory claim is 10.3) but it still isn't even close to the MP4-12C when it comes to higher speeds. Yes, there won't be many cars around to beat the new Turbo S from standstill up to 100 kph or 60 mph, no doubt about it but while Sport Auto tested the MP4-12C at 9.8 seconds from 0-200 kph (not really much faster than the new Turbo S), various YouTube videos with testcars show a different results. The McLaren basically is always faster than the majority of sports cars out there and amazingly faster than the already very fast "old" 997 Turbo S.

So here is actually an interesting question: Will McLaren customer cars perform more like we've seen in YouTube videos or more like we've read in the Sport Auto review. It is interesting to note that the new 12C Spider was much faster from 0-100 and 0-200 kph in the latest Sport Auto test than the Coupe was. Both were company test cars, so did McLaren cheat with the 12C Spider, do they have a huge variation in power with their engines or do they finally have quality under control and the engines have a steady power output?

Also take the track time: 7:28 on the Nordschleife is very good but the car had P Zero Corsa tires, so the result is not that amazing in the end.

I don't know, I really like the MP4-12C, it is kind of a Porsche made by McLaren. I know this sounds stupid but maybe you get what I am trying to say. Maybe Porsche should really forget about the 991 GT2 RS and finally put a mid engined super sports car in the 200-250k price range on the market, one with let's say the weight of the McLaren and 620 hp (the power of the previous GT2 RS).

The more I compare the MP4-12C to the Turbo S, the more I realize that I still would want the Turbo S but with the same 0-200 kph performance of the McLaren (and I am talking 12C Spider here...amazing 9.3 seconds in the last Sport Auto review or the 9.4 seconds Autobild Sportscars achieved). I also would love to see elements from the McLaren speedo cluster in the 991 Turbo S, like the digital part (why can Porsche do this in the 918 Spider but not in the new Turbo?). I would also would love to have the sound of the McLaren in my Turbo S but since I haven't heard the final version yet, I cannot comment.

Bottom line is: It would be sad to see McLaren fail with the MP4-12C because apparently many of die hard Porsche fans/drivers here would love to own or already own a McLaren too but we would probably never buy a Ferrari (again). Right? That said, I hope McLaren survives and I also hope that Porsche finally realizes that staying at par with the competition or even walking a step behind the competition is NOT what customers expect from them. We want Porsche to be THE innovative company we know since the 993 Turbo. The 993 Turbo is MY benchmark and when it came out, it annihilated and shocked the competition. This is what I expected from the 991 Turbo S, nothing more and nothing less.

Porsche needs to stop thinking model politics (like holding the 991 Turbo S back for the sake of the next gen GT2 and GT2RS), they need to start thinking performance and innovation again. Also Porsche needs to learn how to communicate new stuff.

Example: Porsche claims that 90% of the 991 Turbo/Turbo S is new. Wonderful, great news. Now...what is in fact new? What parts? I don't have a clue, there is nothing on the internet about this and even their Turbo sales brochure doesn't say anything. This sucks.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

GT3ZZZ:

reginos:

McLaren have acquired more credibility and goodwill compared to the various limited production supercar brands that have come and gone, due to the F1 car and the F1 Team.

 Sales so far are below target, according to the Press.

As funny as this may sound but McLaren should have actually hooked up with Porsche (not very likely though) or another big car manufacturer (Mercedes?) to market and sell their cars. There are basicall FOUR McLaren dealers in Germany. FOUR. This is ridiculous. At the Munich dealership, there are basically three persons, a managing director, a sales manager and an aftersales guy.  Also McLaren seems not to have attractive financial offers like leases or finance over here but I may be wrong (haven't really looked into it, just relying on some hearsay information).

I also think that their success may have been bigger if they started to market their cars at Porsche 997 Turbo S not at almost Ferrari 458 Italia price levels. It may not have been possible though, production cost and all.

There is still time...McLaren sales could not hurt Mercedes too much, their SLS is a different type of car and at a different price. Just an idea...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

BjoernB:

 well I disagree - I live 712 m above sealevel and we have a lot of 997s being driven in winter - I have hardly seen places that keep 20 cm snow on the streets (0500 am maybe) - all the winterresorts I drive thru are "cleared" meaning that there is snow on the pavement - but nothing that would hinder a 997 to drive over (privat ways are a different story) - also lease can be done with 25k/year which is usually enough for 12 month usage....

thats probable the difference, i live mostly between 1200-1600m sealevel, and the 911 or R8, are really  not the appropriate cars for winter in this aeries.. 

Of course leas can be done with 25k/year or more,  but i guess that monthly payemend would be for many to high, so they go with ridicules 10k/year. Never understand that...

Many thoughtful and enlightening posts here about McLaren and Porsche, thanks to all.  A few more perspectives:  

1.  Porsche and McLaren currently pursue different customer markets.  With its high end product (991TTS), Porsche is aiming at the most customers in the 180-200K market, while McLaren targets the 275-300K market.  The higher the price tag, the smaller the customer market.  

2.  And those markets are not only different in size, but different in customer characteristics.  Many Turbo S customers may perceive that their cars are an "under the radar" evolution of a well known and accepted design, and that the McLaren design is a bit too "radical" for their neighborhoods, locales, professions, etc.  The McLaren customer may view the Turbo S and just another, albeit  higher powered Porsche,   These more emotional views--by Porsche and McLaren owners--are very powerful influences and are not easily dissuaded by a few hundredths of a second in performance.  For example, if you tell a Turbo S customer the McLaren is a bit faster, he will cite many other "benefits" of the S, while if you tell a McLaren customer the Turbo S is less expensive and more comfortable and practical, that customer will cite the exciting design, better performance and "exotic" look of the McLaren.

3.  Porsche is a company with an evolutionary design approach, building on customer loyalty and history.  In its mainstream, iconic 911 series, Porsche will not "jump" into a radically altered "McLaren like" design.  McLaren is building its design concepts and history now, which is a necessity, a benefit and a negative.

4.  Porsche could, however, move directly into the McLaren market with the 960.  That would be serious competition for McLaren for sure, with Porsche's financial resources, brand name, and engineering excellence.  Whether Porsche will decide to enter that market is a business decision only it can and will make...

Conrad, you and Whoopsy given me a whole new view of the McLaren. Whereas in the past I viewed it as nothing more than come lately car with a racing name attached to it, the two of you have provided the substance I needed to view the car differently.It is a car I will consider seriously in the future.

Thanks!

Nick, how about viewing it this way, the McLaren has the handling of the GT3, the power and speed of the new Turbo S, the ride of a S-class, with a bit of Ferrari flare thrown in? BUT, the resale value is not quite up there with the Ferraris yet.

In the current market, the McLaren is the odd ball car, the 'think different' car, something to consider if you don't want to buy the usual suspects. :) At least you will more than likely find a stock car somewhere that fits your bill instead of waiting till who knows for a GT3 delivery, haha.

But like KresoF1 said, take a test drive, and judge for yourself first handed.

Wonderbar:

4.  Porsche could, however, move directly into the McLaren market with the 960. ..

  

Porsche already IS in the McLaren market: the GT2RS (old model still) is as fast as the MP4 in the straight line and faster on tracks.

Just, compared to the GT2RS the MP4 feels a bit synthetic and less perfect. That's why I would argue that the MP4 might be the perfect "Porsche turbo" without AWD and with a more flashy design. The total feel of the MP4 is much closer to the Porsche turbo than to a GT2RS. The GT2RS is a much more refined product in terms of precision. This, of course, also applies to the GT3/GT3RS - however, these cars are slower than the MP4 due to lack of hp 

Wonderbar:

1.  Porsche and McLaren currently pursue different customer markets.  With its high end product (991TTS), Porsche is aiming at the most customers in the 180-200K market, while McLaren targets the 275-300K market.  The higher the price tag, the smaller the customer market.  

  

Do you think that the typical customer sees a major difference between 200k-210k (991TT price in Germany) and 250k (approx. MP4 price in Germany)  Feels pretty similar to me 

Wonderbar:

Many thoughtful and enlightening posts here about McLaren and Porsche, thanks to all.  A few more perspectives:  

1.  Porsche and McLaren currently pursue different customer markets.  With its high end product (991TTS), Porsche is aiming at the most customers in the 180-200K market, while McLaren targets the 275-300K market.  The higher the price tag, the smaller the customer market.  

2.  And those markets are not only different in size, but different in customer characteristics.  Many Turbo S customers may perceive that their cars are an "under the radar" evolution of a well known and accepted design, and that the McLaren design is a bit too "radical" for their neighborhoods, locales, professions, etc.  The McLaren customer may view the Turbo S and just another, albeit  higher powered Porsche,   These more emotional views--by Porsche and McLaren owners--are very powerful influences and are not easily dissuaded by a few hundredths of a second in performance.  For example, if you tell a Turbo S customer the McLaren is a bit faster, he will cite many other "benefits" of the S, while if you tell a McLaren customer the Turbo S is less expensive and more comfortable and practical, that customer will cite the exciting design, better performance and "exotic" look of the McLaren.

3.  Porsche is a company with an evolutionary design approach, building on customer loyalty and history.  In its mainstream, iconic 911 series, Porsche will not "jump" into a radically altered "McLaren like" design.  McLaren is building its design concepts and history now, which is a necessity, a benefit and a negative.

4.  Porsche could, however, move directly into the McLaren market with the 960.  That would be serious competition for McLaren for sure, with Porsche's financial resources, brand name, and engineering excellence.  Whether Porsche will decide to enter that market is a business decision only it can and will make...

  

I think Wonderbar’s comments are right on target – the 12C and Turbo S cars do target different buying criteria/market segments and he described them very well.  The reason I own both is that they fill different needs.  I am passionate about sports cars and would prefer never to drive anything else, but that’s not really practical for me.  My daily driver is a Panamera Turbo which I love and is a great drive and handles car seats quite well for the kiddies, but doesn’t take the place of a sports car.

When I can take one of my sport cars out and want to get a full “sensory load” then it’s the McLaren for sure.  Downside is that it just radiates power through sound and looks and draws a lot of attention, so when I just don’t want this sort of thing it’s the Turbo S, which up through the 997 meant a hard edge sports car that was always a thrill to drive, with the muted exhaust actually being a plus in that you can experience the rush of intense acceleration anywhere its safe without making an obnoxious ass of  yourself  because of noise.

I have a 991 Turbo S on order with something like a November delivery, but I must say I am really struggling with myself not to cancel it.  I think all the concerns stated by RC in the above posts are right on target.  With the price edging up close to $200,000 things do start to change a bit and more is expected.  Also there  is this drift toward a GT car.  I bought one of the first 991 S’s and kept it about 10 days before trading back for a 997 GTS (later traded for a new 997 Turbo S – one of the last ones), losing a lot of money in the process.  That 991S did almost nothing for me. To me it seemed to be a small, well finished, smooth handling car with an excellent PDK transmission and my Panamera’s interior – a car that an SL500 owner would really like.  I know others feel it is so much better and more fun, but I just couldn’t see it.  Maybe I overreacted – I can be impulsive with my cars!   I am very hopeful that the new Turbo S will reignite my enthusiasm for the 911, because I am a lifelong fan.

I am a techie by nature and don’t like a lot of vacuous marketing BS and for the reasons that RC has been pounding on in numerous posts, am starting to feel like Porsche is playing us a bit as fan boy fools willing to gulp down anything they dish out.  I worry that corporate marketing types may be getting a bit too clever in their decision making and losing sight of what the Turbo S should be.

Like Porsche already mentioned in their advertisement, a next generation 911 Turbo or now Turbo S should always be something special. The 993 Turbo was special and so was the 997 Turbo S but everything in-between, not so much. I loved my 997 Turbo (pre-facelift) but honestly, it lacked power. With the RUF 550 hp upgrade and their chassis adjustments (thanks to the great work of Mr. Lieb, the father of Marc Lieb, the well known Porsche race car driver and former test driver for Weissach), my 997 Turbo was the perfect 911 Turbo. Fast, loud, fierce and really amazing. I only realized it now that I had the chance to own a 997 Carrera GTS Cab and Panamera Turbo S. The 911 Turbo was always a beast for me and Porsche shouldn't water down this perception because it is actually what keeps the 911 Turbo alive. I agree, a 911 Turbo is no GT2 RS, by no means but it is a car which can be a good daily driver and at the same time, it does 0-100 kph as fast as a powerful motorcycle. These are qualities which cannot be ignored.

I recently sent an email to Porsche about my thoughts regarding the 991 Turbo S, thoughts as a customer and not as an internet nut who loves to discuss cars. I'm not sure if I nailed the subject and if Porsche actually understands what I am trying to say but there are some little things which I am missing and which could improve the driving experience and even more, I miss more information about the 991 Turbo S. Porsche presented the car in Moscow, there isn't even an official video from the presentation (only the private stuff you find on YouTube).

Honestly, is the 991 Turbo/Turbo S not interesting enough for Porsche to actually....care? I get the feeling that Porsche put the 911 Turbo and Turbo S on the market and...let's move on. 

According to their advertisement, the Benchmark seems to be...hiding.

Maybe my email to Porsche was childish and maybe it will be good for some laughs or some angry comments but I really get the feeling that Porsche didn't try hard enough, especially now that the competition is as strong as it never has been before.

Porsche claims that 90% of the car is new. OK, so more details please. What is new? The AWD system, I got it. The AWS, I got it. The new active aerodynamics and the body, got it. This may be 50% of the car. What about the engine? No word here. What about PDK? No word here. What about the chassis? No word here (just AWS).

Then, there are the options for configuring a 991 Turbo/Turbo S: The color choice isn't really great and their configurator sucks because it doesn't show colors how they look in reality. So why doesn't Porsche post photos of various colors? I also don't understand why I cannot order black painted wheels like on the new GT3 for example. Why no "black" LED lights for the new Turbo/Turbo S? Why no black backlights (they have white ones though but not in the configurator)? I also miss performance options. PDCC is great, Sport Chrono too but what about a sportier chassis setup of some sort or a PDK sport mode like on the GT3?

The 991 Turbo/Turbo S may be a perfect new 911 Turbo but I miss some emotion, as if Porsche developed it and now they move on. I see the same problem with the GT3 but at least they were kind enough to let Andreas Preuninger give a couple of interviews, they put that nice video on YouTube with the various track driving instructions and they allowed Chris Harris and a limited bunch of journalists to testdrive the GT3. Where is the Turbo here?

Yes, the GT3 was presented earlier and it will come earlier but I really want Porsche to show more passion about their cars, more involvement, more excitement and more information. The internet is such a fantastic opportunity for car manufacturers but not many actually use it. Customers like us want to savor every moment of learning about the car, seeing it, listening to it and finding out as much as possible about it. About development, about new stuff on the car, about challenges during development and so on. We want a story, an attachment, we want an insight to and a date with the car we are going to spend over 200k with.

I love Porsche and I also have a lot of respect towards the people who work there and who make such wonderful products happen. My relationship to Porsche has been fantastic lately and even my relationship to the dealer has improved. I couldn't be happier with Porsche. I just want that extra mile, not only for me but for all of us, to be able to enjoy the car we buy and to tell to ourselves: "Wow, 200k is a lot of money but this car and the driving and buying experience is worth every single penny." If Porsche can do that, I am happy. I do not want more.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

A comment about Porsche's decision to market the Turbo and the Turbo S simultaneously:

At both the Geneva and Los Angeles shows, an influential Porsche customer (owner of numerous high end models and a 918 buyer) spent considerable time with major Porsche executives imploring them to release the top models earlier, rather than have their long term consistent customers wait through "the cycle".  The customer's point was that he and others he knew wanted these top end versions as soon as possible, and also that Porsche itself was missing a sales opportunity.  Perhaps Porsche is addressing that situation.  

I think the customer was right, and that Porsche will in fact sell more Turbo S models because of their earlier release.

Someone here mentioned that lease on McLaren is more attractive then 991.

It might be an option for a weekend warrior that can live with that lease mileage restriction (probably less the 5k miles a year to get such a low payment).

I really like the Macca but as i said before,the stupid door prevents an easy use for anyone of "normal" size,over 6ft tall and not because it opens up,the design is really screwed up,just compare the opening to other cars,their own SLR or SLS or Koeniggsegg in particular.

The performance advantage is on paper only,most of us have no access to autobahns (even these are too crowded and restricted lately) and in snow,sleet,rain and dirt and sand on the roads the 991 will just wipe the floor with all these other cars.

I did consider FF but it is really too expensive option when I put 15k miles a year on a car,the depreciation on 991 will be big but not nearly as hurting as the Ferrari.

Btw,as far as 458 vs MP4 is concerned,market shows clearly which car has better desirability.

I put over 2k miles on Mp4 in just 10 days last Spring in California,great car but only for "shorties" who can duck under that door without throwing their back.

Wonderbar:

A comment about Porsche's decision to market the Turbo and the Turbo S simultaneously:

At both the Geneva and Los Angeles shows, an influential Porsche customer (owner of numerous high end models and a 918 buyer) spent considerable time with major Porsche executives imploring them to release the top models earlier, rather than have their long term consistent customers wait through "the cycle".  The customer's point was that he and others he knew wanted these top end versions as soon as possible, and also that Porsche itself was missing a sales opportunity.  Perhaps Porsche is addressing that situation.  

I think the customer was right, and that Porsche will in fact sell more Turbo S models because of their earlier release.

I concur.

absent:

I really like the Macca but as i said before,the stupid door prevents an easy use for anyone of "normal" size,over 6ft tall and not because it opens up,the design is really screwed up,just compare the opening to other cars,their own SLR or SLS or Koeniggsegg in particular.

 

The McLaren door is actually a much better design than the SLS. I am not tall, 5'11, but I walk INTO that stupid door MANY times trying to get in and bang my head when I get out.

THe McLaren door is not in the way at all, it opens out and front, clearing the whole door opening to get in, I have shown my cars to many people, from 6'4 to 5'1 and none of them have actually even come close to banging their head on the door. One actually has to go out of their way and put their head forward in order to even touch the door. 

Side bonus of the McLaren door, one can actually reach it to close it, unlike the SLS where one needs to be chimpanzee in order to have the reach to grab the door handle.

Koenigsegg actually has the stupidest door, no idea why they design a door that opens INTO a curb. Last time I was in London, I saw a girl curbed the door when she got out in front of Harrods. She doesn't care though. 

911 has great doors, short and so it doesn't take a lot of room to open, the narrow sill also helps. McLaren has a really wide sill, so that door has to be that way in order to have a proper opening to get in within a reasonable clearance. 

absent:

Someone here mentioned that lease on McLaren is more attractive then 991.

It might be an option for a weekend warrior that can live with that lease mileage restriction (probably less the 5k miles a year to get such a low payment).

I really like the Macca but as i said before,the stupid door prevents an easy use for anyone of "normal" size,over 6ft tall and not because it opens up,the design is really screwed up,just compare the opening to other cars,their own SLR or SLS or Koeniggsegg in particular.

The performance advantage is on paper only,most of us have no access to autobahns (even these are too crowded and restricted lately) and in snow,sleet,rain and dirt and sand on the roads the 991 will just wipe the floor with all these other cars.

I did consider FF but it is really too expensive option when I put 15k miles a year on a car,the depreciation on 991 will be big but not nearly as hurting as the Ferrari.

Btw,as far as 458 vs MP4 is concerned,market shows clearly which car has better desirability.

I put over 2k miles on Mp4 in just 10 days last Spring in California,great car but only for "shorties" who can duck under that door without throwing their back.

yes those are open ended leases like the ones ferrari does and they probably assume 3500-5000 miles a year. I actually drove to newport beach today and test drove a low mileage 2012 MP4 coupe and let me tell you that it was not what I expected. this is a very light car (2900 lbs) that feels like a tank and is extremely comfortable in normal mode. its very solidly built and with high quality materials and very modern interior. The touch screen stuff and the Meridian sound system made my 430 seem very antiquated. The power reminded me of my heavily modded 997TT except for the sound which is much better in the MP4, but not as good as the 430 in my opinion.  the doors did not bother me, its awkard to get in the first time but then u get the hang of it, what annoyed me was the very large and raised door sill. my test drive made me realize that this car cannot replace a 911 turbo, this is a very unique car that plays in a different league altogether and if anything it would be replacing my 430, which was not the plan. Im now more confused by this car,  its a lot of car for the money (used), and certainly cannot be ignored or dismissed. 

2011 CTT

2005 F430

2010 Audi S5

RC:

Like Porsche already mentioned in their advertisement, a next generation 911 Turbo or now Turbo S should always be something special. The 993 Turbo was special and so was the 997 Turbo S but everything in-between, not so much. I loved my 997 Turbo (pre-facelift) but honestly, it lacked power. With the RUF 550 hp upgrade and their chassis adjustments (thanks to the great work of Mr. Lieb, the father of Marc Lieb, the well known Porsche race car driver and former test driver for Weissach), my 997 Turbo was the perfect 911 Turbo. Fast, loud, fierce and really amazing. I only realized it now that I had the chance to own a 997 Carrera GTS Cab and Panamera Turbo S. The 911 Turbo was always a beast for me and Porsche shouldn't water down this perception because it is actually what keeps the 911 Turbo alive. I agree, a 911 Turbo is no GT2 RS, by no means but it is a car which can be a good daily driver and at the same time, it does 0-100 kph as fast as a powerful motorcycle. These are qualities which cannot be ignored.

I recently sent an email to Porsche about my thoughts regarding the 991 Turbo S, thoughts as a customer and not as an internet nut who loves to discuss cars. I'm not sure if I nailed the subject and if Porsche actually understands what I am trying to say but there are some little things which I am missing and which could improve the driving experience and even more, I miss more information about the 991 Turbo S. Porsche presented the car in Moscow, there isn't even an official video from the presentation (only the private stuff you find on YouTube).

Honestly, is the 991 Turbo/Turbo S not interesting enough for Porsche to actually....care? I get the feeling that Porsche put the 911 Turbo and Turbo S on the market and...let's move on. 

According to their advertisement, the Benchmark seems to be...hiding.

Maybe my email to Porsche was childish and maybe it will be good for some laughs or some angry comments but I really get the feeling that Porsche didn't try hard enough, especially now that the competition is as strong as it never has been before.

Porsche claims that 90% of the car is new. OK, so more details please. What is new? The AWD system, I got it. The AWS, I got it. The new active aerodynamics and the body, got it. This may be 50% of the car. What about the engine? No word here. What about PDK? No word here. What about the chassis? No word here (just AWS).

Then, there are the options for configuring a 991 Turbo/Turbo S: The color choice isn't really great and their configurator sucks because it doesn't show colors how they look in reality. So why doesn't Porsche post photos of various colors? I also don't understand why I cannot order black painted wheels like on the new GT3 for example. Why no "black" LED lights for the new Turbo/Turbo S? Why no black backlights (they have white ones though but not in the configurator)? I also miss performance options. PDCC is great, Sport Chrono too but what about a sportier chassis setup of some sort or a PDK sport mode like on the GT3?

The 991 Turbo/Turbo S may be a perfect new 911 Turbo but I miss some emotion, as if Porsche developed it and now they move on. I see the same problem with the GT3 but at least they were kind enough to let Andreas Preuninger give a couple of interviews, they put that nice video on YouTube with the various track driving instructions and they allowed Chris Harris and a limited bunch of journalists to testdrive the GT3. Where is the Turbo here?

Yes, the GT3 was presented earlier and it will come earlier but I really want Porsche to show more passion about their cars, more involvement, more excitement and more information. The internet is such a fantastic opportunity for car manufacturers but not many actually use it. Customers like us want to savor every moment of learning about the car, seeing it, listening to it and finding out as much as possible about it. About development, about new stuff on the car, about challenges during development and so on. We want a story, an attachment, we want an insight to and a date with the car we are going to spend over 200k with.

I love Porsche and I also have a lot of respect towards the people who work there and who make such wonderful products happen. My relationship to Porsche has been fantastic lately and even my relationship to the dealer has improved. I couldn't be happier with Porsche. I just want that extra mile, not only for me but for all of us, to be able to enjoy the car we buy and to tell to ourselves: "Wow, 200k is a lot of money but this car and the driving and buying experience is worth every single penny." If Porsche can do that, I am happy. I do not want more.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Well  said.

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

Wonderbar:

an influential Porsche customer (owner of numerous high end models and a 918 buyer) spent considerable time with major Porsche executives imploring them to release the top models earlier, rather than have their long term consistent customers wait through "the cycle".  The customer's point was that he and others he knew wanted these top end versions as soon as possible, and also that Porsche itself was missing a sales opportunity.  Perhaps Porsche is addressing that situation.  

I think the customer was right, and that Porsche will in fact sell more Turbo S models because of their earlier release.

I agree, I do not question Porsche's decision to offer the Turbo S simultaneously (apparently, the Turbo S is even available earlier since I heard that the first Turbo models have a November 2012 production schedule) but I question their decision to offer both models, Turbo and Turbo S with the same engine and I am not talking a "similar" engine or "basically" the same engine but the same engine. Only the software seems to be different. I am sorry but this sounds like a rip-off to me as a customer. At least Porsche could have changed the airfilter box design (carbon instead of plastic or at least the silver Turbo S badge with the 3.8 on it) or offer a different exhaust pipes design or whatever, you get the point. In the current setup, I really get the feeling that I am paying over 11k EUR for software only and considering the "free" 25 hp power update McLaren provided to it's customers, this really feels like a rip-off from Porsche. Another problem is that many Turbo (non S) buyers actually think that since the power difference is software only, they can easily tune the car to 40 hp more once they find a tuner who offers a similar power upgrade based on the OEM software. It could happen and Porsche needs to be aware that this will actually attract tuners to offers such an update. In my opinion, the Turbo S power upgrade should have been at least 50 hp over the Turbo and it should have used different turbo chargers or a different exhaust system or different intercoolers or maybe all of them.

Also look at the boost pressure of the Turbo S: Basically, there is not much "air" available in the upper power range without the need of hardware mods. Did Porsche do that on purpose? Do they really think this would keep customers from chip tuning their cars? I doubt it.
 

Yes, I agree: The decision to put the Turbo and the Turbo S on the market at the same time was the right one. What I do not like is the minimal difference between the Turbo and Turbo S, which is basically options and software. Does this sound right to you? To me, as a long time Porsche customer, it doesn't. I also bet that this influential Porsche customer you were talking about would fully agree with me. Putting both models on the market at the same time is one thing but kind of ripping off customers is a different thing.

Don't get me wrong: I know that Porsche wouldn't intentionally rip off their customers but as a customer and someone who ordered a 991 Turbo S, this is what I feel about the Turbo S and I bet I'm not the only one. So why did I order one? Well...did I have another choice...from Porsche? The new GT3 is still on my mind, in my opinion it is currently the best 911 offer from Porsche but it is a completely different beast vs. the Turbo S.

I do not think that people would be that upset about the new Turbo S if Porsche wouldn't have reached a new price level with the new Turbo S. Since Porsche decided to make the new 991 Turbo S a member of the +200k car world (nobody orders a basic Turbo S...), people demand more. They should have expected that. In the US, the base price of the Turbo S has increased by 22k USD, this is really A LOT.

There is still some time to tweak a couple of things here and there and Porsche should really think about it. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg to add a few horses and/or to change a couple of technical specs in the last moment.

580 hp...official data like 0-100 kph in 2.9 sec. and 0-200 kph in 9.9 sec., Vmax 320 kph...and I bet everyone would be happy. Maybe a different exhaust, maybe different cylinder heads or different camshaft...at least one hardware change, so buyers have a good feel about the Turbo S.

There is still time...

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Conrad2:

Wonderbar:

Many thoughtful and enlightening posts here about McLaren and Porsche, thanks to all.  A few more perspectives:  

1.  Porsche and McLaren currently pursue different customer markets.  With its high end product (991TTS), Porsche is aiming at the most customers in the 180-200K market, while McLaren targets the 275-300K market.  The higher the price tag, the smaller the customer market.  

2.  And those markets are not only different in size, but different in customer characteristics.  Many Turbo S customers may perceive that their cars are an "under the radar" evolution of a well known and accepted design, and that the McLaren design is a bit too "radical" for their neighborhoods, locales, professions, etc.  The McLaren customer may view the Turbo S and just another, albeit  higher powered Porsche,   These more emotional views--by Porsche and McLaren owners--are very powerful influences and are not easily dissuaded by a few hundredths of a second in performance.  For example, if you tell a Turbo S customer the McLaren is a bit faster, he will cite many other "benefits" of the S, while if you tell a McLaren customer the Turbo S is less expensive and more comfortable and practical, that customer will cite the exciting design, better performance and "exotic" look of the McLaren.

3.  Porsche is a company with an evolutionary design approach, building on customer loyalty and history.  In its mainstream, iconic 911 series, Porsche will not "jump" into a radically altered "McLaren like" design.  McLaren is building its design concepts and history now, which is a necessity, a benefit and a negative.

4.  Porsche could, however, move directly into the McLaren market with the 960.  That would be serious competition for McLaren for sure, with Porsche's financial resources, brand name, and engineering excellence.  Whether Porsche will decide to enter that market is a business decision only it can and will make...

  

I think Wonderbar’s comments are right on target – the 12C and Turbo S cars do target different buying criteria/market segments and he described them very well.  The reason I own both is that they fill different needs.  I am passionate about sports cars and would prefer never to drive anything else, but that’s not really practical for me.  My daily driver is a Panamera Turbo which I love and is a great drive and handles car seats quite well for the kiddies, but doesn’t take the place of a sports car.

When I can take one of my sport cars out and want to get a full “sensory load” then it’s the McLaren for sure.  Downside is that it just radiates power through sound and looks and draws a lot of attention, so when I just don’t want this sort of thing it’s the Turbo S, which up through the 997 meant a hard edge sports car that was always a thrill to drive, with the muted exhaust actually being a plus in that you can experience the rush of intense acceleration anywhere its safe without making an obnoxious ass of  yourself  because of noise.

I have a 991 Turbo S on order with something like a November delivery, but I must say I am really struggling with myself not to cancel it.  I think all the concerns stated by RC in the above posts are right on target.  With the price edging up close to $200,000 things do start to change a bit and more is expected.  Also there  is this drift toward a GT car.  I bought one of the first 991 S’s and kept it about 10 days before trading back for a 997 GTS (later traded for a new 997 Turbo S – one of the last ones), losing a lot of money in the process.  That 991S did almost nothing for me. To me it seemed to be a small, well finished, smooth handling car with an excellent PDK transmission and my Panamera’s interior – a car that an SL500 owner would really like.  I know others feel it is so much better and more fun, but I just couldn’t see it.  Maybe I overreacted – I can be impulsive with my cars!   I am very hopeful that the new Turbo S will reignite my enthusiasm for the 911, because I am a lifelong fan.

I am a techie by nature and don’t like a lot of vacuous marketing BS and for the reasons that RC has been pounding on in numerous posts, am starting to feel like Porsche is playing us a bit as fan boy fools willing to gulp down anything they dish out.  I worry that corporate marketing types may be getting a bit too clever in their decision making and losing sight of what the Turbo S should be.

Conrad,thanks for very appreciated input of your two last post which confirm 101%.

I have a similar ownership history from what i read in your posts and am amazed of how accurately they reflect my experience and views not limited to the mp4 only...

I too was going to get the turbo S but finally was put off by its performance/price ratio for a reasonably specced car,so was looking at the Ruf Rt35 which given the vtg's and pdk can't match the mp4,not to mention the 997 based Rt 12 i had so we are now looking into a way to better that without going back in time technology wise.

On a general note,i think Porsche just have too many models and editions and what not,that spoils what they actually offer and pisses off the buyers,in the past they offered fewer models and all was much clearer and better defined,Ferrari and Mclaren offer a narrower and better focused line and the result is visible.

The last great turbo was the 993 S,you know why because Porsche were better focused,since then they got better at performance sedans and suv's than the competition but stalled on the core Porsche - the 911 in comparison to the competition,btw,there is only that much you can squeeze out of a 6 and with a pdk...

I think Ruf got it right going for an 8 in a 911,maybe that is the direction

I know that you are a huge fan of Alois but as much as I appreciate his work, I owned only a humbly "tuned" RUF 550, which may or may not be one of his highlights, tuned cars are...tuned cars.

Let me explain: At the beginning, the Vmax was limited by the Tiptronic and they couldn't find a way around. So the car was actually claimed at 327 kph but in reality, it did 310 or maybe 315 kph and that was it. When I looked a little bit deeper into it, I found out that the software is actually purchased from a US(!) company and then slightly adapted to RUF's needs. A couple of months later, I got another software update at Vmax was OK. Also when the engine suddenly shut off(!!!) at 140 kph on the Autobahn, RUF later found out that a cold solder joint fromt he ECU was to blame. Again..the engine went off on the Autobahn at 140 kph, what would have happened at 300???!

Not what I expected to be honest. I know that Alois and his team do a tremendous work, I know him and his wife personally, we went to lunch together once (many years ago) and I hugely appreciate his work and I also admire him for achieving a status as an official Porsche repair outpost, actually the ONLY one in Germany without a dealership as far as I know but tuned stays tuned and I rather prefer the real thing. I know that RUF does high quality work and if I would choose a tuner (yes, I know he is considered a car manufacturer), it would be RUF because of their service and I also appreciate Mr. Lieb's skills regarding chassis setups on the Turbo.

If you want superb performance, take the 997 GT2 RS (this car was and still is a blast) or just wait for the next generation 991 GT2 RS which will, probably due to PDK and AWD, even with a slight (rumored) power bump of 10 hp only, one if not THE fastest street legal Porsche ever built...until the 918 actually gets out.

There is only one thing Porsche did wrong on the new Turbo S: The power/performance ratio is not what I expected. There are other minor things I explained but this is the biggest letdown. This is the next generation most powerful 911 Turbo, so my expecations are kind of high. 580-600 hp and the performance I mentioned and I would have been happy. I do not expect F12 or Aventador performance for 200k, I'm not absurd but still, if Porsche calls this car a benchmark, where does this leave the 918 for example?

Porsche needs to realize that people look at raw performance figures too and while the track performance of the new 991 Turbo S seems to be very good, the straight line performance is nothing to write home about, especially compared to the last gen 997 Turbo S. I get it, the new Turbo S fullfils EU6, the latest environmental regulation for cars and maybe the other manufacturers will have difficulties to achieve the same with their cars at the same performance level but to be honest, I doubt it. I kind of get the feeling that Porsche didn't want to go the whole way to offer an amazing Turbo S, just to keep a big enough performance gap to the next gen GT2 and next gen GT2 RS. Why? I don't see the typical GT2 RS owner buy a Turbo S and vice versa. I think Porsche makes a logical mistake here. Even if the GT2 RS would be only half a second faster from 0-200 kph than a more powerful Turbo S, the chassis would be completely different, the weight, the tires...it would still kill the Turbo S on the track.

I kind of get the feeling that Porsche is afraid of their own success.

You are right with the 993 Turbo (the S came later), when it showed up, it shocked and annihilated the competition. I expected something similar from the 991 Turbo S. There is still time...

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Wonderbar:

an influential Porsche customer (owner of numerous high end models and a 918 buyer) spent considerable time with major Porsche executives imploring them to release the top models earlier, rather than have their long term consistent customers wait through "the cycle".  The customer's point was that he and others he knew wanted these top end versions as soon as possible, and also that Porsche itself was missing a sales opportunity.  Perhaps Porsche is addressing that situation.  

I think the customer was right, and that Porsche will in fact sell more Turbo S models because of their earlier release.

I agree, I do not question Porsche's decision to offer the Turbo S simultaneously (apparently, the Turbo S is even available earlier since I heard that the first Turbo models have a November 2012 production schedule) but I question their decision to offer both models, Turbo and Turbo S with the same engine and I am not talking a "similar" engine or "basically" the same engine but the same engine. Only the software seems to be different. I am sorry but this sounds like a rip-off to me as a customer. At least Porsche could have changed the airfilter box design (carbon instead of plastic or at least the silver Turbo S badge with the 3.8 on it) or offer a different exhaust pipes design or whatever, you get the point. In the current setup, I really get the feeling that I am paying over 11k EUR for software only and considering the "free" 25 hp power update McLaren provided to it's customers, this really feels like a rip-off from Porsche. Another problem is that many Turbo (non S) buyers actually think that since the power difference is software only, they can easily tune the car to 40 hp more once they find a tuner who offers a similar power upgrade based on the OEM software. It could happen and Porsche needs to be aware that this will actually attract tuners to offers such an update. In my opinion, the Turbo S power upgrade should have been at least 50 hp over the Turbo and it should have used different turbo chargers or a different exhaust system or different intercoolers or maybe all of them.

Also look at the boost pressure of the Turbo S: Basically, there is not much "air" available in the upper power range without the need of hardware mods. Did Porsche do that on purpose? Do they really think this would keep customers from chip tuning their cars? I doubt it.
 

Yes, I agree: The decision to put the Turbo and the Turbo S on the market at the same time was the right one. What I do not like is the minimal difference between the Turbo and Turbo S, which is basically options and software. Does this sound right to you? To me, as a long time Porsche customer, it doesn't. I also bet that this influential Porsche customer you were talking about would fully agree with me. Putting both models on the market at the same time is one thing but kind of ripping off customers is a different thing.

Don't get me wrong: I know that Porsche wouldn't intentionally rip off their customers but as a customer and someone who ordered a 991 Turbo S, this is what I feel about the Turbo S and I bet I'm not the only one. So why did I order one? Well...did I have another choice...from Porsche? The new GT3 is still on my mind, in my opinion it is currently the best 911 offer from Porsche but it is a completely different beast vs. the Turbo S.

I do not think that people would be that upset about the new Turbo S if Porsche wouldn't have reached a new price level with the new Turbo S. Since Porsche decided to make the new 991 Turbo S a member of the +200k car world (nobody orders a basic Turbo S...), people demand more. They should have expected that. In the US, the base price of the Turbo S has increased by 22k USD, this is really A LOT.

There is still some time to tweak a couple of things here and there and Porsche should really think about it. It wouldn't cost them an arm and a leg to add a few horses and/or to change a couple of technical specs in the last moment.

580 hp...official data like 0-100 kph in 2.9 sec. and 0-200 kph in 9.9 sec., Vmax 320 kph...and I bet everyone would be happy. Maybe a different exhaust, maybe different cylinder heads or different camshaft...at least one hardware change, so buyers have a good feel about the Turbo S.

There is still time...

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Christian, you are so right!!!!!!!! Turbo S needs badly to differ more from Turbo since it's now much more expensive!!!! 560 hp isnt  enough, 580 hp is the hp level we need. Porsche, pls listen to us if you ever read this forum!!!!!!!!!!' Its multiple opinion

RC:

I know that you are a huge fan of Alois but as much as I appreciate his work, I owned only a humbly "tuned" RUF 550, which may or may not be one of his highlights, tuned cars are...tuned cars.

Let me explain: At the beginning, the Vmax was limited by the Tiptronic and they couldn't find a way around. So the car was actually claimed at 327 kph but in reality, it did 310 or maybe 315 kph and that was it. When I looked a little bit deeper into it, I found out that the software is actually purchased from a US(!) company and then slightly adapted to RUF's needs. A couple of months later, I got another software update at Vmax was OK. Also when the engine suddenly shut off(!!!) at 140 kph on the Autobahn, RUF later found out that a cold solder joint fromt he ECU was to blame. Again..the engine went off on the Autobahn at 140 kph, what would have happened at 300???!

Not what I expected to be honest. I know that Alois and his team do a tremendous work, I know him and his wife personally, we went to lunch together once (many years ago) and I hugely appreciate his work and I also admire him for achieving a status as an official Porsche repair outpost, actually the ONLY one in Germany without a dealership as far as I know but tuned stays tuned and I rather prefer the real thing. I know that RUF does high quality work and if I would choose a tuner (yes, I know he is considered a car manufacturer), it would be RUF because of their service and I also appreciate Mr. Lieb's skills regarding chassis setups on the Turbo.

If you want superb performance, take the 997 GT2 RS (this car was and still is a blast) or just wait for the next generation 991 GT2 RS which will, probably due to PDK and AWD, even with a slight (rumored) power bump of 10 hp only, one if not THE fastest street legal Porsche ever built...until the 918 actually gets out.

There is only one thing Porsche did wrong on the new Turbo S: The power/performance ratio is not what I expected. There are other minor things I explained but this is the biggest letdown. This is the next generation most powerful 911 Turbo, so my expecations are kind of high. 580-600 hp and the performance I mentioned and I would have been happy. I do not expect F12 or Aventador performance for 200k, I'm not absurd but still, if Porsche calls this car a benchmark, where does this leave the 918 for example?

Porsche needs to realize that people look at raw performance figures too and while the track performance of the new 991 Turbo S seems to be very good, the straight line performance is nothing to write home about, especially compared to the last gen 997 Turbo S. I get it, the new Turbo S fullfils EU6, the latest environmental regulation for cars and maybe the other manufacturers will have difficulties to achieve the same with their cars at the same performance level but to be honest, I doubt it. I kind of get the feeling that Porsche didn't want to go the whole way to offer an amazing Turbo S, just to keep a big enough performance gap to the next gen GT2 and next gen GT2 RS. Why? I don't see the typical GT2 RS owner buy a Turbo S and vice versa. I think Porsche makes a logical mistake here. Even if the GT2 RS would be only half a second faster from 0-200 kph than a more powerful Turbo S, the chassis would be completely different, the weight, the tires...it would still kill the Turbo S on the track.

I kind of get the feeling that Porsche is afraid of their own success.

You are right with the 993 Turbo (the S came later), when it showed up, it shocked and annihilated the competition. I expected something similar from the 991 Turbo S. There is still time...

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Do you believe they may change anything?

RC:egarding chassis setups on the Turbo.

 

There is only one thing Porsche did wrong on the new Turbo S: The power/performance ratio is not what I expected. There are other minor things I explained but this is the biggest letdown. This is the next generation most powerful 911 Turbo, so my expecations are kind of high. 580-600 hp and the performance I mentioned and I would have been happy. I do not expect F12 or Aventador performance for 200k, I'm not absurd but still, if Porsche calls this car a benchmark, where does this leave the 918 for example?

Porsche needs to realize that people look at raw performance figures too and while the track performance of the new 991 Turbo S seems to be very good, the straight line performance is nothing to write home about, especially compared to the last gen 997 Turbo S. I get it, the new Turbo S fullfils EU6, the latest environmental regulation for cars and maybe the other manufacturers will have difficulties to achieve the same with their cars at the same performance level but to be honest, I doubt it. I kind of get the feeling that Porsche didn't want to go the whole way to offer an amazing Turbo S, just to keep a big enough performance gap to the next gen GT2 and next gen GT2 RS. Why? I don't see the typical GT2 RS owner buy a Turbo S and vice versa. I think Porsche makes a logical mistake here. Even if the GT2 RS would be only half a second faster from 0-200 kph than a more powerful Turbo S, the chassis would be completely different, the weight, the tires...it would still kill the Turbo S on the track.

I kind of get the feeling that Porsche is afraid of their own success.

I don't think it would be a problem giving some more HP, if Porsche were not subject to environmental regulations from which small manufacturers (under 10.000 units per annum, I think) are exempt.

There is always a balancing act between power, fuel consumption, emissions, tyre durability, and longevity of mechanical parts. I trust Porsche, as a responsible manufacturer are always doing the their mix with safety and durability in mind. Consider that a single Turbo S will cover in a year or two more kilometers than what the whole production run of Aventadors will accumulate in their life span. It's good to be cautious sometimes, especially with turning up the turbo boost.

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"Form follows function"