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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BjoernB:

    In all fairness to the bashing here - no competition in my eyes has the everyday and specially all year performance of the turbo - it sucks big time for my RS to put it away from Oct - March-April because of weatherconditions here in Switzerland - and I am seriously thinking of adding a TTS just to overcome that gap - u won't hardly see a Gallardo or a R8 on the week-ends to go skiing - but here in CH you see a lot of 4S and turbo's being driven hard in winter-times. (dunno where the new front lip will take the new S - but the 997 model was no issue)

    is the tts realy the all year round car... na i dont think so, specialy not for skiing resort with 20cm snow or more. In winter the cayenne tt is just perfect to me, whilst in summer is time for the gt2/ M's or what ever.

    Many owners i know are in a lease contract for there 997 turbos and are as well kilometer restricted per year, so in fact the wouldnt even drive it in winter because of there kilometer limitation by there lease contract.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Someone you can afford to spend 200.000+ EUR on a Turbo S, will definitely be able to buy a SUV for proper transport to his favourite ski resorts.  Using your Turbo S to go skiing sounds like masochism to me. 


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    reginos:

    Someone you can afford to spend 200.000+ EUR on a Turbo S, will definitely be able to buy a SUV for proper transport to his favourite ski resorts.  Using your Turbo S to go skiing sounds like masochism to me. 

    --

    "Form follows function"

    I think it sounds like fun with proper snow tires (I have a great time with my Evo and snow tires).  Only problem is if the snow is too deep - then the car turns into a snow plow (not so fun).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
     

    I would like to see (and buy) best of both worlds: Porsche low end torque curve combined with McLarens's high rev torque. Smiley

     

    It will have to be in a sequential setup, small turbos for easy spool up then switch over to bigger ones for the higher rev range.  The switchover point is the key, how can they let out enough gas to spin up the bigger ones to have them ready while keeping the smaller ones at peak efficiency. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Another rumor I got:

    First 991 Turbo (not S!) will be built in November, so the Turbo S seems to have a production priority.

    Currently, first 991 Turbo S customer production is scheduled for end of September.

    Nothing is written in stone yet though, est. production dates seem to change quite often right now.

     

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
    Rossi:
     

    I would like to see (and buy) best of both worlds: Porsche low end torque curve combined with McLarens's high rev torque. Smiley

     

    It will have to be in a sequential setup, small turbos for easy spool up then switch over to bigger ones for the higher rev range.  The switchover point is the key, how can they let out enough gas to spin up the bigger ones to have them ready while keeping the smaller ones at peak efficiency. 


    Would have been the ideal playground for the often rumoured tri-turbo setup of the new Turbo... Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    Another rumor I got:

    First 991 Turbo (not S!) will be built in November, so the Turbo S seems to have a production priority.

    Currently, first 991 Turbo S customer production is scheduled for end of September.

    Nothing is written in stone yet though, est. production dates seem to change quite often right now.


    Higher demand for the S-model? Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Frankly who would by the standard Turbo ?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Grant:
    reginos:

    Someone you can afford to spend 200.000+ EUR on a Turbo S, will definitely be able to buy a SUV for proper transport to his favourite ski resorts.  Using your Turbo S to go skiing sounds like masochism to me. 

    --

    "Form follows function"

    I think it sounds like fun with proper snow tires (I have a great time with my Evo and snow tires).  Only problem is if the snow is too deep - then the car turns into a snow plow (not so fun).

    Apparently somebody uses the Turbo also for skiingSmiley   541952_10151195442365143_889458049_n.jpg


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    m4ever:

    Apparently somebody uses the Turbo also for skiingSmiley   

    Yes, I see 911s going skiing here in Colorado fairly often.  I think the revamped AWD system will make it even better in the snow (except the 20" wheels dictated by the huge brakes make it difficult to fit tires with enough sidewall for best snow performance).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I took my 996 and 997 skiing in Colorado often.  Always with just my All Season tires, lol.  Once with summer tires.  911 does very well in the snow even with RWD - just not deep snow.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Leawood911:

    I took my 996 and 997 skiing in Colorado often.  Always with just my All Season tires, lol.  Once with summer tires.  911 does very well in the snow even with RWD - just not deep snow.

    Yeah, I was once caught in the mountains doing a canyon drive with my 911 on track tires (and the original shallow tread was totally gone by this point) when it started snowing.  This was an adventure (and good practice for right foot throttle control in place of traction control).  But, I made it home without needing a tow...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hunterone:

    Frankly who would by the standard Turbo ?


    My words... Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
    hunterone:

    Frankly who would by the standard Turbo ?


    My words... Smiley

    You don't enter a dick swinging contest if you know you're second best.  Smiley  Buying a new Turbo is all about measuring up (compensating, some would say).


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
     


    Would have been the ideal playground for the often rumoured tri-turbo setup of the new Turbo... Smiley

     

    I suspect Porsche did tried initially but couldn't make the transition work to their satisfaction. 

    The small turbos would be working at their peak efficiency right around the switch over point and that's the most crucial moment for gas requirement for the smaller turbos, there just isn't enough left over gas to spool the bigger turbo  up.

    If Porsche could solve the packaging issue, a roots type supercharger would be perfect for the low end, say from launch to about 4000rpm, those superchargers are useless anyway at high rpm. Using supercharger would free up the exhaust gas to spool up a turbo and it can take over after 4000 rpm all the way to red line.

    Roots type superchargers are monsters off the line, I loved the 55K engine in my old CLS55. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Dario:
    BjoernB:

    In all fairness to the bashing here - no competition in my eyes has the everyday and specially all year performance of the turbo - it sucks big time for my RS to put it away from Oct - March-April because of weatherconditions here in Switzerland - and I am seriously thinking of adding a TTS just to overcome that gap - u won't hardly see a Gallardo or a R8 on the week-ends to go skiing - but here in CH you see a lot of 4S and turbo's being driven hard in winter-times. (dunno where the new front lip will take the new S - but the 997 model was no issue)

    is the tts realy the all year round car... na i dont think so, specialy not for skiing resort with 20cm snow or more. In winter the cayenne tt is just perfect to me, whilst in summer is time for the gt2/ M's or what ever.

    Many owners i know are in a lease contract for there 997 turbos and are as well kilometer restricted per year, so in fact the wouldnt even drive it in winter because of there kilometer limitation by there lease contract.

     well I disagree - I live 712 m above sealevel and we have a lot of 997s being driven in winter - I have hardly seen places that keep 20 cm snow on the streets (0500 am maybe) - all the winterresorts I drive thru are "cleared" meaning that there is snow on the pavement - but nothing that would hinder a 997 to drive over (privat ways are a different story) - also lease can be done with 25k/year which is usually enough for 12 month usage....


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
    hunterone:

    Frankly who would by the standard Turbo ?


    My words... Smiley

    Like I said in a previous post, my dealer sold now three Turbo but only one Turbo S (mine). Don't underestimate the price difference, especially since many seem to think that PCCB isn't worth the money. The Turbo had an estimated production in October but has now been postponed to November.

    It also seems that many customers who order the Turbo (without S), do not order PCCB and PDCC, no LED lights and some even do not order the Sport Chrono package. Now do the math how much the price difference is (little hint: aprox. 19k EUR) and you understand why not everybody orders the Turbo S. 

    I agree, ordering the Turbo (without S) doesn't make any sense but I also get the feeling that many kind of feel offended by the high price tag of the Turbo S and the little difference in hardware (power). I also think that some customers may actually think that with a cheap chip tuning, the power is upgradable. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BjoernB:
     well I disagree - I live 712 m above sealevel and we have a lot of 997s being driven in winter - I have hardly seen places that keep 20 cm snow on the streets (0500 am maybe) - all the winterresorts I drive thru are "cleared" meaning that there is snow on the pavement - but nothing that would hinder a 997 to drive over (privat ways are a different story) - also lease can be done with 25k/year which is usually enough for 12 month usage....

    If I wouldn't have kids, I would certainly drive a 991 Turbo S in winter time, including to my ski resorts. Without kids, I could actually drive to the more "exclusive" ski resorts which are usually quite accessible with normal cars, even in deep winter. Like I said in the past, I love my Cayenne but I wouldn't own one without having kids. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Leawood911:
    Rossi:
    hunterone:

    Frankly who would by the standard Turbo ?


    My words... Smiley

    You don't enter a dick swinging contest if you know you're second best.  Smiley  Buying a new Turbo is all about measuring up (compensating, some would say).

    Speak for yourself... Smiley  Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
    Rossi:
     


    Would have been the ideal playground for the often rumoured tri-turbo setup of the new Turbo... Smiley

     

    I suspect Porsche did tried initially but couldn't make the transition work to their satisfaction. 

    The small turbos would be working at their peak efficiency right around the switch over point and that's the most crucial moment for gas requirement for the smaller turbos, there just isn't enough left over gas to spool the bigger turbo  up.

    If Porsche could solve the packaging issue, a roots type supercharger would be perfect for the low end, say from launch to about 4000rpm, those superchargers are useless anyway at high rpm. Using supercharger would free up the exhaust gas to spool up a turbo and it can take over after 4000 rpm all the way to red line.

    Roots type superchargers are monsters off the line, I loved the 55K engine in my old CLS55. 

     

    The tri-turbo rumor was quite consistent over the past couple of months before the 991 Turbo/S introduction and I really wonder what happened. It is an interesting concept and it certainly would have made the new Turbo more special (and probably more powerful too) but I kind of think that the tri-turbo engine is reserved for a different kind of car, maybe the rumored 960? Smiley Unless Porsche used the very same engine (with little mods) from the "old" 997 Turbo, I doubt that Porsche would have had the time and resources to switch engine development that fast from a tri-turbo to a twin-turbo setup. Especially since the new engine also supports EU6 environmental regulations, mandatory on new cars starting fall 2015. Since Porsche claims that 90% of the 991 Turbo/S is new, the engine can't be the old one. So did they just "remove" one turbo charger from the setup and re-designed it? Doesn't sound too likely. So maybe the tri-turbo rumor was a joke (maybe a journalist once asked a Weissach engineer what is new about the next Turbo and he joked "it gets a tri-turbo"... Smiley) or the tri-turbo engine is actually for a different car. 

    Time will tell but I know one thing for sure: If Porsche comes up with a tri-turbo engine and/or more power for the 991 Turbo S within the next three years, a lot of customers will be very very p.ss.d. So this isn't very likely.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    The tri-turbo and other enhancements could be saved for the GT2. 


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    reginos:

    The tri-turbo and other enhancements could be saved for the GT2. 

    GT2 gets the 991 Turbo S engine. Not sure about GT2 RS though.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    M I also think that some customers may actually think that with a cheap chip tuning, the power is upgradable. 

    I  met the owner of a UK chip tuning company many years ago, his business had been going for about 3 years then and he "chipped" an E55 I had at the time. Whilst this guy was doing his soldering I interrogated him about who had written the new maps for the chips ?

    This guy told me that when many manufacturers were developing their engines they ran various power levels and usually the marketing departments signed off the final power level to be sold to the market. He described to me an underground European network of electronics guys who had access to these "other" tunes which were then sold on (by electronics guys) and swapped/sold within this network.

    He told me of one of the well known electronics guys who did Mercedes electronics and then later when he was uploading my new E55 software he showed me this guy's name which appeared on the screen during the re coding (I can't remember exactly how but remember being suitably impressed/convinced.)

    The point of the above tale is that who would bet against the turbo S software not appearing on the black market, there will be a high price for whichever electronics guy  happened to take a copy near sign off point Smiley

    BTW The UK chipper I mentioned is now the biggest in the UK and well thought of  


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I agree with TB993tt - While encryption is better than in the past - lets face facts - in the past they had inside information to hack into the code because even back then it was mathematically impossible AND not worth it to even try to hack into it without help.  That same help is still out there.  For that reason Porsche should offer power updates like McLaren for old Turbo owners anytime there is only a software update.  Obviously that means the Turbo S would need some type of S exclusive hardware enhancement (Titanium Exhaust?!!) to justify any cost above the PCCB and other stuff that can be quantified or the price should be reduced.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    reginos:

    The tri-turbo and other enhancements could be saved for the GT2. 

    GT2 gets the 991 Turbo S engine. Not sure about GT2 RS though.

    There is a rumour that the 991 GT2 RS engine may include a power boost technology...

    ...perhaps inspired by the 911 GT3 R Hybrid research & development? Smiley

    Smiley Smiley Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Rossi:
    hunterone:

    Frankly who would by the standard Turbo ?


    My words... Smiley

    Like I said in a previous post, my dealer sold now three Turbo but only one Turbo S (mine). Don't underestimate the price difference, especially since many seem to think that PCCB isn't worth the money. The Turbo had an estimated production in October but has now been postponed to November.

    It also seems that many customers who order the Turbo (without S), do not order PCCB and PDCC, no LED lights and some even do not order the Sport Chrono package. Now do the math how much the price difference is (little hint: aprox. 19k EUR) and you understand why not everybody orders the Turbo S. 

    I agree, ordering the Turbo (without S) doesn't make any sense but I also get the feeling that many kind of feel offended by the high price tag of the Turbo S and the little difference in hardware (power). I also think that some customers may actually think that with a cheap chip tuning, the power is upgradable. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    I agree with you as one of those buyers, I personally dont care for PCCB and PDCC but I do want the LED and the sport chrono of course, which with a couple more minor options jacked the price of my regular turbo to 160k, still far from the 190k S if I wanted to order one. So now I either have to accept the lowly regular turbo or get the S and its ridiculously high price for a 911. I have been on the list with a paid deposit for over 2 years now and this is the first time that I find waiting for a new turbo not exciting at all. I think porsche screwed up big time, first by not offering a stupid manual, second by jacking up the price to ridiculous levels for a 911, third by introducing the S at the same time which will make the lowly but not cheap regular turbo buyers feel like second class citizens. I now feel that every day that passes by is making that MP4 look better and better. here in the US you can buy or lease a near new MP4 with almost no miles for the price of a mildly optioned S. On paper, it looks like the MP4 can keep up with the S up to 100km/h and will totally destroy it after that. Ive bought porsches all my life and this is the first time I am thinking seriously about getting my deposit back. not sure what to do..... 


    --

    2011 CTT

    2005 F430

    2010 Audi S5

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    For the same money I would get the MP4 - MUCH less depreciation.  Are there any manual supercars remaining?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Not sure I understand this whole line of complaints about the Turbo compared to the Turbo S.  Seems to me the new 991 Turbo is a major improvement over the 997 Turbo (and worth the price increase), and that the S is price differentiation is consistent with all past differentiation (approx. 17K).  This latter differentiation is also consistent with other models--Panamera Turbo vs. Panamera Turbo S, and Cayenne Turbo vs. Cayenne Turbo S.

    Regarding tuning, my guess is you will pay up to 10K for a good tuner, and for the difference of 7K I would certainly trust Porsche's testing and power increase over a tuner.  

    Finally, folks talk here about no one buying the lowly regular Turbo.  i'll wager that the same percentage of Turbo vs. Turbo S buyers will remain the same.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Wonderbar:

    Not sure I understand this whole line of complaints about the Turbo compared to the Turbo S.  Seems to me the new 991 Turbo is a major improvement over the 997 Turbo (and worth the price increase), and that the S is price differentiation is consistent with all past differentiation (approx. 17K).  This latter differentiation is also consistent with other models--Panamera Turbo vs. Panamera Turbo S, and Cayenne Turbo vs. Cayenne Turbo S.

    Regarding tuning, my guess is you will pay up to 10K for a good tuner, and for the difference of 7K I would certainly trust Porsche's testing and power increase over a tuner.  

    Finally, folks talk here about no one buying the lowly regular Turbo.  i'll wager that the same percentage of Turbo vs. Turbo S buyers will remain the same.  

    its not the price differentiation that is the problem, its the absolute number itself. when i got my 2007 997TT for under 130k in the US, there were no other cars within 50k that could come even close to its performance so it was very well worth the price. now you have many other cars within close reach, price wise  and with similar or better performance. thats the problem.


    --

    2011 CTT

    2005 F430

    2010 Audi S5

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Leawood911:

    For the same money I would get the MP4 - MUCH less depreciation.  Are there any manual supercars remaining?

     

    Ariel Atom bar none. It will blows the doors off anything other than top speed. 


     
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