Crown

AAHTT:

RC:

BjoernB:

I was at my dealer and unlike the GT3 - he still has slots for Turbo S 2013 delivery....

Are you surprised? The 991 Turbo S costs almost 60k EUR more. I bet your dealer has 918 slots available too. 

I also heard that Porsche kind of "allocates" GT3 production slots depending on how many 918, Turbo/Turbo S and/or other specific models the dealer ordered. 

My dealer has, as far as I know, two Turbo S orders now (he got another one in last week) for 2013 but four or five (I don't remember anymore) Turbo orders. Unfortunately first Turbo production is scheduled for november, which is also weird (Turbo S are coming first).

Why would people order the Turbo and not the Turbo S? Well...this is a mystery to me too. Apparently people look more at money than I thought and they seem to prefer to add certain (leather) goodies instead of power. 

I should ask my dealer what these (Turbo) cars are worth, so I could actually tell if this is about the money or not.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

why would people order the turbo and not the turbo S? now i wonder too because historically, the turbo always came out a couple of years ahead of the S and buyers enjoyed that top of the line status for the duration, also the turbo always had more power and better performance than the previous S, so lets see whats happening now: not only the new standard turbo's design lacks the wow factor (my opinion), but also lacks HP (less than previous S), lacks a manual option, gained weight, became much more expensive and the worst worst thing is that now the S is coming BEFORE the standard turbo. why have a turbo at all then?  so yes now I agree with you that getting the standard car has become questionable. the only problem is that the S is not worth 190-200 grand in my opinion. Because of this unusual decision by porsche to release the S before the standard car and mostly because of that, I have decided to forgo my first position on the list for a standard turbo which i had for 2 years with a paid deposit and i have just asked for my deposit back, very disappointed. 

its not always the money, its the value you are getting in return for that money and with the S out before the standard car, i feel there is much less value to the standard car. ive been struggling with this for a while now, but i finally decided to spend a few hundred dollars more a month and get something with a real wow factor (at least for me) and much much better performance. ....im picking up my 2013 12c spider next saturday..... i think its tough to beat 0-100 mph in 6 and 0-200 km/h in 9 flat in an open top....but thats just me....

--

2011 CTT

2005 F430

2010 Audi S5

 

 

I understand you! 12c spider is an astonishing car! And turbo s is an underperformer in its price range unfortunately

AAHTT:

its not always the money, its the value you are getting in return for that money and with the S out before the standard car, i feel there is much less value to the standard car. ive been struggling with this for a while now, but i finally decided to spend a few hundred dollars more a month and get something with a real wow factor (at least for me) and much much better performance. ....im picking up my 2013 12c spider next saturday..... i think its tough to beat 0-100 mph in 6 and 0-200 km/h in 9 flat in an open top....but thats just me....

I guess then that you won't need AWD in San Diego?

From 0-100 kph (62 mph), no current car, with the exception of the Bugatti Veyron maybe and some other extreme exotics, will beat the new 991 Turbo S. I heard of real world testing figures below 3 seconds from 0-62 mph and considering what the "old" 997 Turbo S was already capable of, I think these rumors are actually true.

However: You are right, the 12C Spider is a great car, especially since the 991 Turbo S Cab isn't even out yet and I can also see a much higher "wow" factor with the McLaren, something you may enjoy in California but not so much in Europe right now.

I understand your decision and I agree with many of the points you made, Porsche raised the price tag without actually giving us much in return. At least it seems that way. We need to see some real world test results first to make a final opinion, the 991 Turbo S hasn't been tested yet, so we should give it a little bit of a benefit of a doubt. This doesn't change much regarding straight line performance of course and I don't even know if the exhaust sound will please everybody interested in the Turbo/Turbo S. The sound is raunchier, a bit more "metallic" and maybe even slightly louder but do not expect the sound of a Carrera with sport exhaust or a GT3, which is a pity.

Still...I think that both, the MP4-12C (talking Coupe now since the 991 Turbo S Cab isn't out yet) and the Turbo S can't be really compared for various reasons. Yes, performance-wise, they can be compared and while the Turbo S will probably outrun the McLaren in the lower 100 mph range, the McLaren surely will kick the Turbo S's ass in the upper speed range, no doubt about it. However, the 991 Turbo S will be easier to drive fast in the hands of a less skilled driver than the McLaren due to the AWD. I know that McLaren has a very good traction control/ESP setup, actually a quite impressive one for a 2WD car but still, I think that in this domain, the Turbo S will prevail. Also, when it starts raining (or snowing for that matter, not that this really is important in California), the Turbo S is just the better daily driver.

From an excitement and fun point of view you may be right however: The 12C should offer all the excitement and fun the Turbo S may lack due to the slightly slower performance in the upper speed range and the lack of emotional attachment due to a more lethargic exhaust/engine sound (if Porsche plans to keep it that way, they still have time to change this and that...).

In the end, I think that Porsche made a mistake but we won't know if I'm right before the car is actually on the market.

600 horses, 0-62 mph in 2.9 seconds, 0-100 mph in 6 seconds, a much better exhaust sound and everybody would be happy, especially if Porsche would add another "goodie" here and there. Maybe Porsche will realize that sooner or later...
We want to give them our money but we hate it to give them the money without getting the feeling that we get what we paid for. I get it. I do.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Conclusion is that Porsche friends like (and some buy)  the McLaren because it is "the mid-engined junior supercar Porsche that never was".  

In the meantime Porsche are continuously missing the opportunity to enter this lucrative market and instead try to compete with overpriced versions of the Carrera. How  can this no-brainer elude them 

--

"Form follows function"

RC:

From 0-100 kph (62 mph), no current car, with the exception of the Bugatti Veyron maybe and some other extreme exotics, will beat the new 991 Turbo S. I heard of real world testing figures below 3 seconds from 0-62 mph and considering what the "old" 997 Turbo S was already capable of, I think these rumors are actually true.

is this number 0-100 really so important to you. are you the typical red light racer like golf gti...(na i dont think so). Sorry i dont get it. what you need is 100-200 or 150-250 on german high ways. How many launch start have you done in your panamera, how many red light starts..  (i guess not many at all)

I personaly couldnt care less about the 0-100kmh performance, as i never use it. What i want is performance for the high ways and thats starts around 100kmh.. (germany high ways)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD8ZZV7lbUk Looks good in black, though the exhaust note is still kind of disappointing.

Nice find!

If there was an exhaust note, I did not hear it. This despite the fact that the driver "punched" the throttle.

Christian, Agate Grey exterior with no exhaust should perfect for you in the neighborhood. No one will know you got a new car.

Just teasing. 

Dario:

RC:

From 0-100 kph (62 mph), no current car, with the exception of the Bugatti Veyron maybe and some other extreme exotics, will beat the new 991 Turbo S. I heard of real world testing figures below 3 seconds from 0-62 mph and considering what the "old" 997 Turbo S was already capable of, I think these rumors are actually true.

is this number 0-100 really so important to you. are you the typical red light racer like golf gti...(na i dont think so). Sorry i dont get it. what you need is 100-200 or 150-250 on german high ways. How many launch start have you done in your panamera, how many red light starts..  (i guess not many at all)

I personaly couldnt care less about the 0-100kmh performance, as i never use it. What i want is performance for the high ways and thats starts around 100kmh.. (germany high ways)

For me, the most important acceleration times are 0-100 kph and 0-200 kph because this is what I encounter most times when there is traffic, even on the Autobahn. When there is no one on the Autobahn and I can actually drive Vmax, the acceleration from 200 to 300 kph doesn't really matter. 

Still, the new 991 Turbo S is going to be faster than the 997 Turbo S and I never heard a 997 Turbo S driver complaining about lack of performance in the 0-300 kph range. Just saying... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

pxaxh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD8ZZV7lbUk Looks good in black, though the exhaust note is still kind of disappointing.

The video has been shot with a phone and the exhaust note of the 991 Turbo S is not deep but high with a metallic noise embedded and probably the microphone of the phone didn't do it justice. The 991 Turbo S sounds louder, the driver barely touched the throttle though (don't forget this is a 560 hp car) and since I heard the 991 Turbo S, I know that it sounds better but unfortunately not as good as I have hoped (mules however may sound less loud, depending on what they are testing/which parts are used, which development state the car is in, etc.) but maybe the final product will sound OK. The car I heard sounded like a Carrera S with normal exhaust, a little bit better than the 997 Turbo S, which of course isn't great but we haven't heard the final thing yet.

I do not look for excuses, I'm just saying...the 991 Turbo S isn't even on the market yet. So I still have hopes for the final car. There is time for some minor improvements.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

nberry:

If there was an exhaust note, I did not hear it. This despite the fact that the driver "punched" the throttle.

Christian, Agate Grey exterior with no exhaust should perfect for you in the neighborhood. No one will know you got a new car.

Just teasing. 

Are you kidding? He barely touched the throttle...this is a 560 hp car which does 0-60 mph under 3 seconds. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Btw: Try this video. The interesting part starts at around 1:45. Turn the volume up and listen carefully to the sound, especially at the end of the video when the car accelerates hard. Sounds better than what I heard on a mule and this white cars is actually a pre-production car, so pretty much the final deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kxXLuB7s3M

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Sounds great!

2005 997S Blk/Blk

SoCal Alan:

Sounds great!

I know but I actually think that the driver hit the rev limiter. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I think this is the first time I have seen the LED lights turned on...

i think they look great!

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

The Turbo S 0 to 200kph time will be stupid fast. The new AWD system that allows more fwd on launch, its SC over boost, PDK enhancements, better suspension and new tire compounds for more traction will probably make it king of the hill of 0 - 200mph. It will likely now have that GTR feel of clawing into the road on hard acceleration. Journalists and owners will be amazed.

Then McLaren will give MP12 owners another free HP upgrade and its all over.

The 991 Turbo/ Turbo S has to be the last all metal 911. Materials wise the 991 seems like something from the end of a industrial era. Its body construction of aluminium and high strength steels seems like so yesterday. Even Alfa with its 4C  is pushing ahead with a carbon fiber monocoque. Porsche has done a lot of carbon R/D for the 918 and maybe the next model Porsche, whatever that is will surprise us with its construction materials.

JimFlat6:

The Turbo S 0 to 200kph time will be stupid fast. The new AWD system that allows more fwd on launch, its SC over boost, PDK enhancements, better suspension and new tire compounds for more traction will probably make it king of the hill of 0 - 200mph. It will likely now have that GTR feel of clawing into the road on hard acceleration. Journalists and owners will be amazed.

Then McLaren will give MP12 owners another free HP upgrade and its all over.

The 991 Turbo/ Turbo S has to be the last all metal 911. Materials wise the 991 seems like something from the end of a industrial era. Its body construction of aluminium and high strength steels seems like so yesterday. Even Alfa with its 4C  is pushing ahead with a carbon fiber monocoque. Porsche has done a lot of carbon R/D for the 918 and maybe the next model Porsche, whatever that is will surprise us with its construction materials.

not even close, these are the factory numbers for both cars:

2014 turbo S : 0-200km/h: 10.3s

2013 MP4 coupe: 0-200km/h: 9.0s (8.8s with corsa tires)

even though we know porsche is conservative with numbers, i highly doubt the S could bridge that huge gap to 9 sec, which means its a long shot from being king of the hill in that acceleration range.

--

2011 CTT

2005 F430

2010 Audi S5

Is the factory Turbo S number with or without over boost on?   Should we just assume it is? 

JimFlat6:

Is the factory Turbo S number with or without over boost on?   Should we just assume it is? 

according to the german site which i assume is the most reliable, 10.3 is with sport plus on.

2011 CTT

2005 F430

2010 Audi S5

AAHTT:

JimFlat6:

Is the factory Turbo S number with or without over boost on?   Should we just assume it is? 

 

according to the german site which i assume is the most reliable, 10.3 is with sport plus on.

 

 

Then its toast.

The Porsche interior might be more "useable" but buyers in the  200K plus price range aren't trapped into having to choose one car to do everything.

Maybe the Turbo S should have been equipped with more power, more unique Turbo S equipment and identification. A mildly different ecu tune, better front lip and black carpeitng with some two tone interiors doesn't seem like enough for the money over a standard Turbo.

I like the halo effect (rings) the led lights give!

2011 Porsche Carrera 4S Platinum Silver (sold)
2013 Porsche Panamera GTS Basalt Black

2013 Porsche Carrera S GT Silver

“The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively” 
― Bob Marley

Not liking those. Too distinctive, too ez  for cops to pick out from other cars when looking for speeders. Definitely will not order LED headlights. Thanks for the heads up!

reginos:

Conclusion is that Porsche friends like (and some buy)  the McLaren because it is "the mid-engined junior supercar Porsche that never was".  

In the meantime Porsche are continuously missing the opportunity to enter this lucrative market and instead try to compete with overpriced versions of the Carrera. How  can this no-brainer elude them 

--

"Form follows function"

IF Porsche do enter that segment, Audi R8 is dead meat, and it's something Piech won't allowed, Porsche is not going to kill off one of his babies.

They could differentiate between the cars like they already do with the Callardo.

The Porsche could be RWD only, use a carbon cell, have more power and performance and command a higher price compared to the Audi. Audi R8 is in the 911 price range whereas the new Porsche will be in the junior supercar class.

--

"Form follows function"

Porsche doesn't have the capacity to mass produce carbon cells, so that's already a non-starter. 

AWD is a Porsche trademark too, see 959. Plus, with the power level we are talking about, awd is a must in order to put down all the power. 

Porsche doesn't have a engine for the mid engine car, the boxer 6 is a non starter in that segment and the V8 from the Cayenne/Panamera is too big and heavy, the V8 in the 918 'could' work but it is too expensive, the construction of that V8 is too exotic. 

IF Porsche do use the 918 engine, the car will be comfortably in the 300k range without options. A bit too expensive. Magic spot should be in the 225k-250k. But that's right in the Gallardo territory. 

I don't think Piech wants Porsche to get into that segment, VW group already had it pretty well covered with the Gallardo, and for those who can't afford a Gallardo they can get the cheaper R8 instead. Porsche is famous for the everyday practical sports car, ie 911, VW group doesn't need it to enter that segment. There are times when what we Porsche lovers wants doesn't fit with the overall corporate direction.

Porsche could use the 918 carbon cell, like McLaren share theirs between the 12C and the P1.

The engine could ideally be a flat 8 utilising the modulal design of the A91. There will also be a flat 4 offshoot of the A91.

So, we'll have the R8 as a mid engined alternative to the 911 4WD and Turbo, the new Porsche as a more exclusive but still very usable 458 and 12C rival and the Lamborghini as a hardcore more uncompromising supercar.

It has been reported that Porsche will be responsible for the development of all sportscars within the VW Group including the new R8 and Callardo replacement. It is oxymoron that they should not be allowed to have their own version.

--

"Form follows function"

The 918 carbon cell is not mass produce-able, the 918 production runs about 15-18 months, so about 2 cars a day. Outside of McLaren, no one else has the technology to make carbon cells fast and cheap.

McLaren specially developed their carbon cell process to be able to make a cell every 4 hrs and cheap. It's their competitive advantage over the competition. 

The flat 8 could be interesting, giving Porsche the edge in the engine department, a very low Cg. But the chassis will have to be made quite wide to fit it and if Porsche do share the same chassis with R8 and Gallardo, then the later 2 will have a lot of space within the engine bay unused. 

The raw materials for the MonoCell are made by Formax a UK company and the MonoCell itself is manufactured in Salzburg Austria, true in 4 hours only (Formula 1 time 3.000 hours!!). I don't think the VW Group (which I hold very highly in my esteem for road cars and motorsport) doesn't have the resources to devise and produce something similar, or better.

"Form follows function"

At the new 911 Turbo S presentation in Moscow, Mr. Bernhard Maier, Porsche boss for Marketing and Distribution (as far as I remember) said, that the 911 Turbo is the highlight of the 911 model line, the best of the best, an "article" (whatever he meant by that ). Then, he tells people "here is the new 911 Turbo and Turbo S" and...funny...only one car shows up, the 991 Turbo S.  This was already kind of weird if you ask me.

For me, as a 911 Turbo customer, the 911 Turbo is the following: A monster power Porsche with AWD which can beat everything on the street in straight line at speeds under 100 kph (62 mph), which can hit 0-200 kph faster than any other sports car in the price range and which hits 0-300 kph at least at par with some real super sports cars. Top speed isn't that important, usually speeds around 315 kph are just fine for the German Autobahn because it really takes a lot of free space to drive faster. I'm not crazy enough to pass other cars or trucks at 340 kph, so the current 318 kph Vmax for the Turbo S is enough...for me.

Where are we now with Turbo S performance? Well...not where I actually expected it to be. Porsche raised the base price tag of the 911 Turbo S in Germany by a whopping 22k EUR. Yes, they improved the standard equipment but c'mon, so did the competition and this doesn't justify a price increase of almost 13%. Again...a price increase of almost 13% in a time where interest rates are historically low and inflation is below 2% in many countries, incl. Germany.

The last 997 Turbo S had 530 hp. 13% of that is aprox. 70 hp. So to justify the increased price tag, Porsche would have needed to increase the power output by 13% also. This means...600hp. Exactly what I wanted in the first place.

Even if we ignore the very good performance of the current McLaren MP4-12C and 12C Spider, the competition (Ferrari, Lamborghini and even Audi with their R8) will present new models at some point, maybe next year. I am pretty sure that the next gen 458 (whatever the name will be) will hit 0-200 kph in under 10 seconds. So where would that leave Porsche and their "benchmark" 911 Turbo S?

Porsche made a serious mistake in my opinion and it will show sooner or later in their 991 Turbo and especially Turbo S sales figures. Why did I order a 991 Turbo S then? Well: Did I have a choice? I am a very special case since I need a less flashy car with daily driver capabilities (incl. rain and snow) and four seats. What about other potential customers? If people start saying they considered the new Turbo S but start buying a McLaren instead, something is definitely wrong.

The competition has never been that strong before. To be honest: If I would live in a different region and I wouldn't see the need for a stealth sports car with daily driver capabilities, I would choose the Ferrari F12 or maybe the MP4-12C also. This comes from a diehard Porsche fan, so Porsche should really worry about my words!

A 911 Turbo was always a beast, a performance monster. The benchmark, I kind of agree. Where are we now? Yes, 560 hp are nice and the new Turbo S is fast but this just does't cut it. A 911 Turbo shouldn't just keep up with the competition, it should annihilate, shock the competition. I always "enjoy" it (not!) when I hear somebody from Porsche talking about fuel efficiency and environmental achievements. To be frank: I give a rat's ass about that. I get "mobbed" with this car anyway most of the time, so I couldn't care less if the car is now 18% or 13% or 15% more fuel efficient. This is something which may be interesting for Porsche because they have to fulfill certain environmental laws but as a customer, performance comes first. Performance.

I get it, Porsche engineers may not be in love with the current (and future) environmental laws and it may be more and more difficult to achieve more power and better performance but at the same time to lower emissions output and fuel consumption. Yes, I get this. Which brings me to the next point: How does the competition do it? Aren't they facing the same issues? Same goes to the exhaust/engine sound: While the competition usually produces an amazing exhaust/engine sound, the 911 Turbo sounds like a...well...I don't know...a car with 150 horses? 

Part of the driving fun is the exhaust/engine sound, Porsche needs to understand that. I actually don't know any Turbo S customer who is happy with the current 997 Turbo S sound. So why doesn't Porsche listen??? Starting with the 996 Turbo, the exhaust sound on the 911 Turbo models has been really lame. Is there a reason for that? I don't get it, seriously. If Porsche worries that some 911 Turbo customers, maybe wealthy business men who really use that car as a daily driver, may feel annoyed by a permanent loud engine/exhaust noise, there is an easy solution and it is called: Sport Exhaust Option. Make an amazing sounding sport exhaust and charge customers 4k EUR for it. It will work, I bet on it. On the other hand, I have to ask myself why my favorite car company increased the base price of a Turbo S by almost 13% but at the same time, I get nothing really special in return? 

LED lights? Great. Do they improve the performance? More leather. Great. Does it improve performance? Not so pretty CL Turbo S rims? Do they improve performance? Yes, active aerodynamics...AWS...new PTM system...I get it. Isn't this what a new generation is all about? Introducing new or improved features?

Don't get me wrong: I am pretty sure the new 991 Turbo S is going to be an amazing sports car and at par with the competition but here's the problem: The competition is already very strong and new generations of competitor cars, like the 458, Gallardo and R8 successor, are to be released in the near future. Where does this leave the new 991 Turbo S? The benchmark?! Case closed.

There is still time for Porsche to "adjust" the 991 Turbo S specs...just saying.

The complaints regarding the new 991 GT3 may not have been justified, at least this car delivers an amazing performance, especially compared to it's 997 GT3 or even GT3 RS predecessor.

The 991 Turbo S is a different story...30 hp more only but 20kg more weight too...I don't get it.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

well said Christian...

Me too can't live without Porsche,i had the 996 TT,the 997TT,but now Porsche with the price tag of the 991 TTS goes wrong.

With that price tag the car must be a beast,that let no think to other cars.

And again i hate the move to bring out Turbo and Turbo S at the same time,the Turbo non S is the bad sister...and for a bad sister, 180K(becouse without options you can't take it) is again too much !!!

no..this time i'm out,hope with the GT3 RS to find a good compromise for my needs,if not bye bye(and i'm not happy)

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

I just heard today that the 991 GT3 RS may have a base price tag between 170 and 180k EUR. 

Brace yourself for a serious price increase for the RS.

As always...rumors need to be taken with a grain of salt but considering that Porsche may use even wider rear fenders than for the regular GT3, this could make sense. Rumored power is around 495-500 hp, PCCB is not standard but the weight is aprox. 30kg lower than on GT3.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)