Crown

KresoF1:
Nick, my advice is to test drive MP4-12C and then you will be able to give it your final judgement.

After its intro I was very impressed with MP4-12C and even thinking about possibility of buying it.

Just... After recent pretty long and nice test drive in my friends MP4-12C I amde my subjective opinion about it.
It is a great and truly fast sportscar. But, I subjectively can not live with its shortcomings.

What are some its shortcomings? The Spider looks very interesting. Do the doors on the Spider operate in the same way as the coupe? I know with the SLS convertible the doors operate differently from the coupe.

Spyder has the same doors as the coupe in the McLaren. Dictate by the thick door sill of the carbon tub. Hinges at the base of the A pillar.

SLS coupe doors hinges on the roof, so Mercedes has no choice by to use conventional doors on the SLS convertible. 

nberry:

KresoF1:
Nick, my advice is to test drive MP4-12C and then you will be able to give it your final judgement.

After its intro I was very impressed with MP4-12C and even thinking about possibility of buying it.

Just... After recent pretty long and nice test drive in my friends MP4-12C I amde my subjective opinion about it.
It is a great and truly fast sportscar. But, I subjectively can not live with its shortcomings.

What are some its shortcomings? The Spider looks very interesting. Do the doors on the Spider operate in the same way as the coupe? I know with the SLS convertible the doors operate differently from the coupe.

Nick,

I will be just little bit off topic(since this thread is about 991 Turbo after all). IMHO MP4-12C shortcomings are:

-stupid doors without door handles(yes, this is ergonomic feature) with unergonomic as possible car entery

-strange gearbox overall ratios(very long fourth, fifth, sixth and specially seventh gear) that could be a benefite on some tracks but, they are definitely not a benefite on the road-this is purely my personal opinion

-sometimes pretty strange suspension setup. For example try to drive MP4 very fast on windy road then sudddenly drop the speed see what will happened... Suspension reacts pretty akward in this situation and you can feel some unsettling behaviour(like the control software do not exactly knows what to do)

-open diff. Yes, MP4 traction control managment is very, very good but... When you drive car with amazing electronically controlled rear diff as is F12 Berlinetta for example you can get the picture what kind of traction is MP4's traction control producing. Very, very good traction but, not as fluid or amazing as is F12 traction. Both cars are RWD are I was lucky enough to try both at the same time since my friend owns both

KresoF1:

nberry:

KresoF1:
Nick, my advice is to test drive MP4-12C and then you will be able to give it your final judgement.

After its intro I was very impressed with MP4-12C and even thinking about possibility of buying it.

Just... After recent pretty long and nice test drive in my friends MP4-12C I amde my subjective opinion about it.
It is a great and truly fast sportscar. But, I subjectively can not live with its shortcomings.

What are some its shortcomings? The Spider looks very interesting. Do the doors on the Spider operate in the same way as the coupe? I know with the SLS convertible the doors operate differently from the coupe.

Nick,

I will be just little bit off topic(since this thread is about 991 Turbo after all). IMHO MP4-12C shortcomings are:

-stupid doors without door handles(yes, this is ergonomic feature) with unergonomic as possible car entery

-strange gearbox overall ratios(very long fourth, fifth, sixth and specially seventh gear) that could be a benefite on some tracks but, they are definitely not a benefite on the road-this is purely my personal opinion

-sometimes pretty strange suspension setup. For example try to drive MP4 very fast on windy road then sudddenly drop the speed see what will happened... Suspension reacts pretty akward in this situation and you can feel some unsettling behaviour(like the control software do not exactly knows what to do)

-open diff. Yes, MP4 traction control managment is very, very good but... When you drive car with amazing electronically controlled rear diff as is F12 Berlinetta for example you can get the picture what kind of traction is MP4's traction control producing. Very, very good traction but, not as fluid or amazing as is F12 traction. Both cars are RWD are I was lucky enough to try both at the same time since my friend owns both

 

Is it possible for Porsche now to improve smth in turbo s unofficially?

RC:

You are right with the 993 Turbo (the S came later), when it showed up, it shocked and annihilated the competition. I expected something similar from the 991 Turbo S. There is still time...

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Unfortunately, there is NO time. My P friend told me directly in his today's email(I emailed direct link to this thread): 991 Turbo/Turbo S are signed products and there wont be any changes in power/performance official specs. Turbo S is capable of 7.27min Nordscheliefe time with normal tires. Why are members on rennteam comparing Turbo S with MP4-12C? MP4-12C is more powerfull car that is also much more expensive on domestic german market. Forthcoming 991 GT2 will be natural competitor to car like MP4-12C with same price level but, with better performance.

when  you guys will stop talking about the MP4-12C ??

ITS 50% MORE than 991 TTS   and thats aloooot of money 

and yes its 50% more for fully loaded MP4 and fully loaded TTS 

======

 1 more thing you think that porsche will listen to porsche fan's that need more HP ? really ?? when a fan will say ohh thats enough ??? 

I casually config-ed a Turbo S to 250k.  

Unlike before where Ferrari's 360/430/458 stays pretty much out of reach in pricing even lightly used ones, that amount is well within a lightly used MP4-12C territory. 

The price hike for Porsche puts the top cars within reach of the next bracket up where MP4-12C/458/Gallardo plays.

Before the 991Porsche had the whole market to themselves.

KresoF1:

Nick,

I will be just little bit off topic(since this thread is about 991 Turbo after all). IMHO MP4-12C shortcomings are:

-stupid doors without door handles(yes, this is ergonomic feature) with unergonomic as possible car entery

-strange gearbox overall ratios(very long fourth, fifth, sixth and specially seventh gear) that could be a benefite on some tracks but, they are definitely not a benefite on the road-this is purely my personal opinion

-sometimes pretty strange suspension setup. For example try to drive MP4 very fast on windy road then sudddenly drop the speed see what will happened... Suspension reacts pretty akward in this situation and you can feel some unsettling behaviour(like the control software do not exactly knows what to do)

-open diff. Yes, MP4 traction control managment is very, very good but... When you drive car with amazing electronically controlled rear diff as is F12 Berlinetta for example you can get the picture what kind of traction is MP4's traction control producing. Very, very good traction but, not as fluid or amazing as is F12 traction. Both cars are RWD are I was lucky enough to try both at the same time since my friend owns both

 

Only the 2012s have the iPhone swipe to unlock feature. 2013s have a button, press to open :)

Good information!

BTW, the MP4 is around $230,000 (which can be discounted) in the US. The 991TTS MSRP is $185,000.

nberry:

Good information!

BTW, the MP4 is around $230,000 (which can be discounted) in the US. The 991TTS MSRP is $185,000.

Keep in mind one has a carbon fiber tub and the other , well it looks very familiar!

nberry:

Good information!

BTW, the MP4 is around $230,000 (which can be discounted) in the US. The 991TTS MSRP is $185,000.

In Germany, Turbo S and MP4-12C prices are quite comparable. My car is 203k EUR (I actually wanted to add a couple of more options but not worth it...210k EUR would have been the price tag), the MP4-12C is 200k (base car) and maybe 10-20k options, depending on what you want (of course there are more options but this is what I would have wanted). So the price tags of both cars, in Germany, are quite comparable. Maybe not in the US or other regions though. This is why we are talking MP4-12C here... 

@Kreso: I agree, the next gen GT2 and especially GT2 RS will be real MP4-12C competitors and yes, the 991 Turbo S is fast as hell on the track, 7.27 is the same time the new GT3 achieved on semi-slicks...until Timo Kluck(?) apparently achieved a 7.25 or 7.26 time (I don't remember) recently.

No doubt, the 991 Turbo S is a fast car but the performance difference vs. the 997 Turbo S is only minimal, at best. With 30 hp power more but also 20 kg weight more. Not what I expected.

Don't get me wrong, I knew that before I ordered the 991 Turbo S but I still think there is time to tweak a couple of things here and there, even if the official power/performance data stays the same (I agree, I don't think something will change but it would be possible if Porsche really wanted).

As I said before, I ordered the 991 Turbo S, so I truly believe this will be an amazing car but why not try to put some pressure on Porsche to improve a couple of things here and there before they actually produce the first customers cars?

Examples for possible improvements on the Turbo S which do not cost a lot and/or do not require any re-certification:

1. Tweaking the engine mapping for slightly better acceleration performance (it would be sufficient if test results in car magazines are amazing, they could leave the factory claims the same)

2.  More options for the Sport Chrono package (adjustment of single options like throttle response, overboost time, etc. in the PCM system, with the possibility to save and name favorite combos).

3. Nicer engine badge/airfilter box (something with carbon or whatever but different from the regular Turbo)

4. Different mapping for the exhaust system flaps, so the car sounds raunchier, a bit louder

5. PDK Sport Mode (similar to GT3) with the push of a button and/or adjustment from PCM system (Sport Chrono)

6. "Turbo S" instead of current "Turbo" engraving below the PDK shift lever (maybe this was only a flaw on the pre-production cars and the final thing gets the "Turbo S" engraving?)

7. Black painted exhaust pipes (better differentiation from Turbo exhaust pipes). They are already darker as far as I understood but not really black (like on my Cayenne GTS for example).

8. Speedmeter with 360 or 370 kph scale (right now, the final number is 350 kph) for both, Turbo and Turbo S

9. Option to put a "Turbo S" logo on the headrest (like the red GTS on the Cayenne/Panamera GTS models)

10. Option for black painted wheels

11. Option for "black" LED front lights

12. Option for darker (or even black) backlights

13. Option to choose a different PCCB caliper color (like red or black for example...)

I'm also not a fan of the new daylight running lights, the "four spots LED" daylight running lights from the Panamera/Cayenne GTS/Turbo/Turbo S are much nicer in my opinion but I guess it is too late to change that. 

A few little things can already change the buying experience... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Christian, we need to see real life tests of 991 Turbo S. what is official 997.2 Turbo S 0-200 kmh time?

In the last Sport Auto review of the 997 Turbo S, the car did 0-100 kph in 3.1 seconds and 0-200 kph in 10.6 seconds.

Factory claims were 0-100 kph in 3.3 seconds (Sport Chrono Plus) and 0-200 kph in 10.8 seconds (Sport Chrono Plus).

New 991 Turbo S has a factory claim of 3.1 seconds and 10.3 seconds. Sport Chrono Plus is standard.

Nordschleife track time was 7:44 min. (achieved by Horst v. Saurma). I know that Porsche claims the new 991 Turbo S at 7:27 min. on the Nordschleife but Sport Auto usually tests the cars at a couple of seconds slower (which is normal, since Porsche testdrivers drive these cars all the day and know their stuff). My guess is that the new 991 Turbo S will hit 7:32/7:33 min or so on the Nordschleife, which will be amazing, no doubt about it. Especially considering the 30 hp power difference only vs. the 997 Turbo S. Keep in mind that the 991 Turbo S uses street tires, while the GT3 models use semi-slicks.

What worries me a little bit: The 997 Turbo S tested in Sport Auto had a weight of 1569 kg only (factory claim: 1660 kg). So the question here is: Will the new 991 Turbo S also have 91 kg less than the factory claim? I kind of doubt it.

Yes, we need to wait for a first real life drive and review but this is actually what I am talking about: Porsche presented the car almost 6 weeks ago and nothing has happened. Not even more technical details (for example why the car is 90% new), no new photos or videos, nothing.

So if we would assume that the new 991 Turbo S has a better real life performance, similar to the "old" 997 Turbo S, the new 991 Turbo S could hit 0-100 kph in 2.9 seconds and 0-200 kph in 9.8 seconds (I just subtracted the difference from the 997 Turbo S factory claim and real life test result). I could live with 2.9 and 9.8 seconds, so just let's hope that this is going to be the case. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

What worries me a little bit: The 997 Turbo S tested in Sport Auto had a weight of 1569 kg only (factory claim: 1660 kg). So the question here is: Will the new 991 Turbo S also have 91 kg less than the factory claim? I kind of doubt it.

The official weight is always the EU regulation figure that includes 90% full fuel tank and a 75kg driver. I presume Sport Auto don't put Von Saurma on the scales, when they declare the weight figure and also  the tank could be less filled.

Also I am not sure if PCCB was included in the standard 997.2 Turbo S spec, which saves some 3-4kg per corner, if fitted on the test vehicle.

"Form follows function"

I assume Sport Auto uses the EU regulation, otherwise it wouldn't make sense to compare the real weight with the claimed weight.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Such a big difference does not make sense, then. Even allowing for things like PCCB and lightweight bucket seats.

Perhaps, Kreso who has contacts with the Press company that publishes SA could clarify the magazine's  weighing policy??

--

"Form follows function"

I don't see that the 991 Turbo S has to be so different from the regular turbo, looking back at the history of the Porsche turbo models.

The Porsche turbo was the defining fast Porsche up to the 993 turbo model. The 993 GT2 was developed so that it could be raced, this was the reason for the road car, the first GT2.

The 993 turbo S in Europe was a parts bin excercise at the end of 993 turbo production, I remember it well and how high they priced it !! They stuck on the Weissach turbo sport suspension (in Europe) and the 450PS K24 sport kit which also went on the last 993 GT2s and was available as a retrofit or from the factory on normal 993 turbos.

Once Porsche had built the 993GT2 they invented the next hard core turbo 911 since all 911 turbos had been rear wheel drive up to that point and this was carried on with subsequent GT2 models. The 911 turbos carried on with 4WD and became softer and more GT like and this is the path Porsche have taken with the S models just allowing them to sell a few more at a higher price to those who want the top dog turbo. If you want a raw fast 911 turbo it is called the GT2, the turbo models are destined to be softer and are aimed at the GT market IMO

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

SA measures the car without the driver.

Regarding weight of 991 Turbo and Turbo S here is the very interesting fact: Turbo S weights 10kg more!

Why, since it is having PCCBs as standard? Here is direct info from my P friend:

-actual weight difference between standard braking system on Turbo and PCCB system on Turbo S(which is optional for standard Turbo) is smaller then on previous generation of Turbo(997.2) due to bigger size of brakes

-adaptive sport seats plus on Turbo S are the heaviest seat option. Buckets are the lightest, followed by sport seat plus, third are sport seats that are marginally lighter then adaptive sport seats plus. You can shave around 20kg if you order buckets or around 11kg if you order sport seats plus

-CL wheels on Turbo S are the heaviest wheel option. Optional sport classic wheels(same size as CL wheels and with 5 lug configuration which is without any doubt a huge benefite IMHO) are little bit lighter even when ordered with Gloss Black option

That is interesting, but why the CL are the heaviest? is due the mechanism to retain the wheel? btw, kreso, do you know if the Sport Classic wheels will be available to the Carrera range?

in my country kuwait .... the 991 TTS price tag is 53.200 KD 

thats like 140,000 Eur 

and the MP4 is 80,000 KD thats like 210,000 Eur 

so for me there is no way to compair the 2 cars 

KresoF1:

SA measures the car without the driver.

This explains the larger part of the difference, 75kg.

Regarding weight of 991 Turbo and Turbo S here is the very interesting fact: Turbo S weights 10kg more!

Why, since it is having PCCBs as standard? Here is direct info from my P friend:

-actual weight difference between standard braking system on Turbo and PCCB system on Turbo S(which is optional for standard Turbo) is smaller then on previous generation of Turbo(997.2) due to bigger size of brakes

-adaptive sport seats plus on Turbo S are the heaviest seat option. Buckets are the lightest, followed by sport seat plus, third are sport seats that are marginally lighter then adaptive sport seats plus. You can shave around 20kg if you order buckets or around 11kg if you order sport seats plus

-CL wheels on Turbo S are the heaviest wheel option. Optional sport classic wheels(same size as CL wheels and with 5 lug configuration which is without any doubt a huge benefite IMHO) are little bit lighter even when ordered with Gloss Black option

 

Very useful info thank you.

"Form follows function"

Road and Track recorded 2.6 Sec. 0-60 (6.3 0-100) for 2012 997 TTS (Veyron by same mag was 2.5).  Other US magazines ran 2.7 (MotorTrend for one).  The 991 TTS will be REALLY FAST!  A real wake up call!  It will eat up the 458 or MP4.  Mark my words, Porsche has done their homework again.  Road & Track 997 Turbo S results :

0-60 mph - 2,6s
0-100 mph - 6,3s
1/4mile - 10,7s @ 128,9 mph

sulaiman:

in my country kuwait .... the 991 TTS price tag is 53.200 KD 

thats like 140,000 Eur 

and the MP4 is 80,000 KD thats like 210,000 Eur 

 

so for me there is no way to compair the 2 cars 

You don't wanna know what prices are running here in my country - Israel.... 991 Carrera S/4S price tag approx. 1.000.000 shekel which is 270.000$   There is no price tag for 991 Turbo yet, but I even can't imagine how much is gonna be

RC:

New 991 Turbo S has a factory claim of 3.1 seconds and 10.3 seconds. Sport Chrono Plus is standard.

So if we would assume that the new 991 Turbo S has a better real life performance, similar to the "old" 997 Turbo S, the new 991 Turbo S could hit 0-100 kph in 2.9 seconds and 0-200 kph in 9.8 seconds (I just subtracted the difference from the 997 Turbo S factory claim and real life test result). I could live with 2.9 and 9.8 seconds, so just let's hope that this is going to be the case. 

Well and thats a point 100-200kmh in 7 secs ore officialy in 7,2 sec for the turbo S, isnt anything special, if we have already 2 tonnes luxury  4seater witch run this exercise in 7,6 secs..

Dario:

RC:

New 991 Turbo S has a factory claim of 3.1 seconds and 10.3 seconds. Sport Chrono Plus is standard.

So if we would assume that the new 991 Turbo S has a better real life performance, similar to the "old" 997 Turbo S, the new 991 Turbo S could hit 0-100 kph in 2.9 seconds and 0-200 kph in 9.8 seconds (I just subtracted the difference from the 997 Turbo S factory claim and real life test result). I could live with 2.9 and 9.8 seconds, so just let's hope that this is going to be the case. 

Well and thats a point 100-200kmh in 7 secs ore officialy in 7,2 sec for the turbo S, isnt anything special, if we have already 2 tonnes luxury  4seater witch run this exercise in 7,6 secs..

Have you ever outrun a 997 Turbo S in your M5 or a E63? Didn't think so...  

First, let me say that you cannot compare test results of one car magazine with test results from another one, simply because they may have different testing grounds (pavement stickier or less sticky), different testing setups (with one driver, one driver and one passenger...) and so on. Also car manufacturers know that Sport Auto is measuring power of the test cars, so they are more cautious about sending a "prepped" test car with more power.

According to Sport Auto, the new M5 did 100 to 200 kph in 8.7 seconds.

According to Sport Auto, the new M6 Cab did 100 to 200 kph in 9.7 seconds.

BMW didn't make any complaints about these results, so go figure...

So far, from real life experience, the Sport Auto results have been always the most accurate. 

German Auto Zeitung test results are usually the fastest ones, probably because they use a very stick pavement for testing and/or car manufacturers aren't afraid of any dyno testing. 

I am pretty sure that the new M5/M6 with Competition Package will do 100 to 200 kph in 8.3 to 8.5 seconds but under 8 seconds? I highly doubt it. Please never make the mistake to measure performance based on speedo reading because in Europe, the speedo has usually a 7-10 kph error at 200 kph and an error of 12 to 15 kph at 300 kph from my experience.

I know you love BMW but we should leave the church in the village, as we say here in Germany. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

KresoF1:

SA measures the car without the driver.

Both measurements in SA are DIN measurements, this has been confirmed, you are right. So there is a difference of 90kg between the DIN weight of the 997 Turbo S and the measured weight. Interesting though: Performance tests (straight line) are done with two passengers and a full fuel tank. Other car magazines use the driver only and not a full fuel tank, this is why measurements can vary strongly.

Regarding weight of 991 Turbo and Turbo S here is the very interesting fact: Turbo S weights 10kg more!

Why, since it is having PCCBs as standard? Here is direct info from my P friend:

-actual weight difference between standard braking system on Turbo and PCCB system on Turbo S(which is optional for standard Turbo) is smaller then on previous generation of Turbo(997.2) due to bigger size of brakes

Yep. Huge 410 mm discs (PCCB).

-adaptive sport seats plus on Turbo S are the heaviest seat option. Buckets are the lightest, followed by sport seat plus, third are sport seats that are marginally lighter then adaptive sport seats plus. You can shave around 20kg if you order buckets or around 11kg if you order sport seats plus

Unfortunately yes. I was considering the bucket seats (they aren't in the configurator yet but will be available this autumn...with optional heating!) but they kind of slightly intrude with the curved backrest into the room of the back seats and I didn't want to make it harder for the rear passengers to ride in my car. 

-CL wheels on Turbo S are the heaviest wheel option. Optional sport classic wheels(same size as CL wheels and with 5 lug configuration which is without any doubt a huge benefite IMHO) are little bit lighter even when ordered with Gloss Black option

 

Difference is minimal and advantage of the 5 lugs is mainly cost (rims are cheaper, more aftermarket rim options...caution...warranty) because the new CL has been completely renewed, only 100 Nm needed, also no issues with street or "normal" amateur track use (no maximum stress on parts).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

thats stupid HIGH 

Speaking of heated bucket seats: Somebody asked if these heated bucket seats will be available for the GT3 too (sorry, something went wrong with the posts and the thread). 

Honestly...I don't know. Also keep in mind that the seat heating would add weight. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Leawood911:

Road and Track recorded 2.6 Sec. 0-60 (6.3 0-100) for 2012 997 TTS (Veyron by same mag was 2.5).  Other US magazines ran 2.7 (MotorTrend for one).  The 991 TTS will be REALLY FAST!  A real wake up call!  It will eat up the 458 or MP4.  Mark my words, Porsche has done their homework again.  Road & Track 997 Turbo S results :

0-60 mph - 2,6s
0-100 mph - 6,3s
1/4mile - 10,7s @ 128,9 mph

Don't count on it eating up the 12C.  Probably not gonna happen.  12C is several hundred pounds lighter and 50 hp or so more and it has a terrific launch control capability.   McLaren sandbags hp figures just like Porsche does. TTS will hang around until 60 or 70 mph or so and then it's  so long. Always bad idea betting on violating laws of physics.  I have 12C and 997 TTS with 991 TTS on order so love them both but If the 991 TTS eats up the 12C then the only people more surprised than me will be the Porsche engineers.  They are counting on the GT2 to take on the 12C as has been noted in a prior post.

The Road & Track 997 Turbo S test results sound kind of dubious to me. 0-100 mph (160 kph) in 6.3 seconds? Kind of...impossible if you ask me. Rolling start? Only the driver and empty fuel tank? Glue sticky asphalt for the acceleration tests? Several runs and best run of ten runs?  As much as I love Porsche but 0-100 mph in 6.3 seconds is extremely unlikely. Btw: The factory claim for the new 991 Turbo S is 6.8 seconds.

I agree, looking at the various comparisons on YouTube between the 997 Turbo S and other cars and the MP4-12C and other cars, it is very unlikely that the 991 Turbo S is going to outrun the MP4-12C. From standstill to 120 kph (75 mph) or so, the 991 Turbo S could be a couple of inches ahead but then, the MP4-12C would probably drive away.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)