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    Re: 991 RSR

    Horrible . and painful to watch!!I feel bad for the drivers as it seems they will probably not win a race this year. So whats the deal will they have the 2014 motor next year? If so I hope its good enough as corvette will probably be with a new car. Porsche needs to win In GT as the RS Spyders did a few years ago. I hate to see them lose!


    Re: 991 RSR

    reginos:

    Do you think that if Porsche allowed the Cayman to race with the RSR engine ( and releasing the corresponding road cars), things would have been different? 

     

    A difficult question to answer Reginos. On one hand some of the weaknesses of the 911 platform would be alleviated or eliminated. Excessive tire ware (especially rear tires) seems to be an ongoing issue with the 911 platform. It also seems that when the tires do go, they really fall off a cliff. A quick analysis of the lap times yesterday shows that the 911 is quite inconsistent when compared to the F458 platform. The Ferrari's are able to put in consistently fast laps whilst there is quite a fall of in lap times especially towards the end of the stint, for the 911's. The Cayman platform would no doubt be more balanced and this issue would be reduced or even eliminated.

    The second issue is one of engine: Not having DFI is a major handicap (in relation to the 458's) . Shorter stints are a guarantee to having more pit stops , especially in long races like Le Mans.  Although the DFI advantage has been reduced by the ACO giving smaller fuel tanks to Ferrari, there is always some advantage gained from lower consumption. (shorter fuel stops).

    Another engine related issue is that of torque: Although Porsche insists that the old Mezger is still capable of taking on the opposition, the truth of the matter is that the Porsche's are no longer the cars with the highest top speeds.(3.2 Km/h slower than the fastest Ferrari). This will be a killer at Le Mans. I have no analysis of the acceleration figures, but it would not surprise me if there was a deficit in those figure as well.

    The final issue (in this post) is that the increased wheelbase of the 991 seems to have improved the stability of the 911 in the fast corners. A Cayman platform would be a regression in this area.

    All in all, Porsche know  the strengths of the opposition. They also know that today's GTE cars are almost real racing cars. They have painted themselves into a corner by insisting that the 911 platform be the only GT platform that they will consider. It is indeed remarkable that Porsche engineering has been able, throughout the last 50 years or so, to overcome the shortfalls of the 911 platform, but times have changed . The opposition has changed. They have come on strong and they are not chained to using one particular platform. If for example, Ferrari found that the 458 was noncompetitive  they could (if they wished) come out with a completely different car that would counteract the short falls of the 458 platform (if they existed). Porsche seems to deny itself this freedom.  These days the company seems more interested in selling than in winning. I hope that someone remembers that without winning; you do not sell. Not in the long term anyhow.

    Finally; I really hope that Porsche has not underestimated the competition with their LMP1 project. Another failure in that program could place the remainder of their racing credibility at stake.


    Re: 991 RSR

    BTW- Yesterday the car was faster in race trim than in qualifying. This inability to find a fast qualifying setup, could indicate that the car is also difficult to set-up. Not a good sign for a car that will later be sold to customers.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Spyderidol:
     

    The final issue (in this post) is that the increased wheelbase of the 991 seems to have improved the stability of the 911 in the fast corners. A Cayman platform would be a regression in this area.

    • Porsche 991 GT3 wheelbase = 2,457 mm
       
    • Porsche Cayman S wheelbase = 2,475 mm
       
    • Porsche 960 Coupe wheelbase = [         ] mm

    Porsche-960_Car-magazine-article.jpg

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: 991 RSR

    Ha! I didn't realize that! My bad.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Another analysis shows that the ideal lap of the 92 Porsche is about 2 tenths off the ideal lap of the 51 Ferrari. (quickest ideal lap of the class). However,, the 92 was no match for the 51 during the whole race lap after lap. this shows that the 458's are able to put in many more laps closer to their "ideal lap" times.  This underscores the  991's inconsistency.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Porsche 911 RSR aux 6 heures de Spa 2013

    http://youtu.be/vrZ2Prlx45E

     

     


    --

    2006 997 C2S Cab, Triple Black,  2006 Cayenne Titanium Iceland Silver Metalic New York


    Re: 991 RSR

    Well ...I'm glad that they are optimistic.


    Re: 991 RSR

    bobr:

    Porsche 911 RSR aux 6 heures de Spa 2013

    http://youtu.be/vrZ2Prlx45E

    At this point, it looks like the 991 RSR will need a BoP adjustment to be competitive at Le Mans...

    Smiley


    Re: 991 RSR

    Smiley Definitely...There seem to be some tire  wear issues which need to be sorted out along with some further engineering development. 


    --

    2006 997 C2S Cab, Triple Black,  2006 Cayenne Titanium Iceland Silver Metalic New York


    Re: 991 RSR

    Why can't Porsche use the 500HP motor from the 2013 997 GT3Rin the 991 RSR??


    Re: 991 RSR

    996cal:

    Why can't Porsche use the 500HP motor from the 2013 997 GT3Rin the 991 RSR??

    That's a good question -- why not run the engine in the 991 RSR with a higher output...

    Aston-Martin-V8-GTE.jpg

    Aston-Martin-V8-GTE-racer.jpg

    ...it appears that Aston Martin Vantage GTE runs with a 600hp engine!?! Smiley

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: 991 RSR

    The engine is the same (or nearly). The ACO applies air restrictors as per the regulations. They then make adjustments to the original restrictor sizes. Example: A 4L Normally Aspirated Engine will receive two 28,6mm restrictors as a base. In Porsche's case they have been given a restrictor break of 0.7mm, so in actual fact the RSR are running 29,4 mm restrictors (which funnily enough, is the base restrictor used for a 3.2L Normally Aspirated Engine).

    In Aton Martin's case, they were given a base restrictor of 28.3mm (4.5L NA Engine) as per the regulations, but then they were given a restrictor break of 1.4mm so in actual fact they are running restrictors that are 29.7mm. So , as one can easily see, they have a bigger engine than the Porsche (4.0L vs 4.5L) and they are running bigger restrictors (29.4mm vs 29.7mm). (Remember: The bigger the restrictor size, the more air gets to the engine and therefore the engine produces more power).


    Re: 991 RSR

    "The dress rehearsal never runs smoothly."

    I'm not sure how to take that.  Is it a cop out?  Or just a little levity?

     


    Re: 991 RSR

    I think it is just PR nonsense.

    Anything is possible at LeMans, but they really have to work hard from now until then. Let's just see how hungry Porsche is for a win.

    Personally, I think it is a lost battle, as the Astons will wipe the floor with anyone that threatens their dominance.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Is LeMans about pure speed and car capability or just reliability? 

    It will make no difference if the Aston makes like 700HP but they retires 12 hrs in. IF the RSR can work 24hrs trouble free then they will be home free.

     


    Re: 991 RSR

    In the past, reliability was certainly an issue with the cars. If you could secure a finish, you could almost be guaranteed a good place (if not a podium). Now-a-days, the reliability of the cars have improved so much  that the race resembles more a 24H sprint than the endurance event of yesteryears.

    Sure, reliability is your primary concern, but speed is a  very close second (and getting closer and closer with each passing year). If you go to Le Mans relying on other peoples misfortune to gain a podium position (or win), then I'm afraid one's delusion will almost always guarantee failure and one will spend the rest of his life going to Le Mans in search of that illusive placing.

     

     


    Re: 991 RSR

    Spyderidol:

    I think it is just PR nonsense.

    Anything is possible at LeMans, but they really have to work hard from now until then. Let's just see how hungry Porsche is for a win.

    Personally, I think it is a lost battle, as the Astons will wipe the floor with anyone that threatens their dominance.

    There is a significant amount of internal pressure, pride, competitive drive within Porsche to make the 991 RSR a winner. You can see that on the drivers faces during last weekends interviews. We are only two races into the birthing of a new RSR. Let's not forget that the 458 wasn't an instant winner when it was first introduced. 


    --

    2006 997 C2S Cab, Triple Black,  2006 Cayenne Titanium Iceland Silver Metalic New York


    Re: 991 RSR

    Whilst that is certainly true, one should bear in mind that Porsche has been racing the 911 in its various iterations for almost 50 years. They know all the weaknesses and strengths of that platform. Yes, the car is new, and yes there are some significant changes, but it’s nothing hard work (plenty of testing and development) can’t cure.

    As for the Aston threat; there is very little they can do about that. It's in the hands of the Gods and the ACO.


    Re: 991 RSR

    I think it's great that we have Aston in the mix challenging Porsche, BMW & Ferrari. Their participation makes for a vibrant and healthy GT class.  Hopefully, we will see them join the ALMS GT class. Nothing like a little competition to make you kick your game up a notch. 


    --

    2006 997 C2S Cab, Triple Black,  2006 Cayenne Titanium Iceland Silver Metalic New York


    Re: 991 RSR

    A most interesting stream of posts - thanks for sharing your knowledge Spyperidol!

    50th anniversary does indeed create a window of opportunity for a graceful retirement....


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: 991 RSR

    wink Thank you kind Sir.


    Re: 991 RSR

    bobr:

    I think it's great that we have Aston in the mix challenging Porsche, BMW & Ferrari. Their participation makes for a vibrant and healthy GT class.  Hopefully, we will see them join the ALMS GT class. Nothing like a little competition to make you kick your game up a notch. 

    I would agree with you if they had achieved their current speed through design, development and hard work, however their dominance is due to poor BoP. It's called "Balance of Performance" for a reason. What we currently have is "Unbalance of Performance"'and that is not good.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Spyderidol:
    Whilst that is certainly true, one should bear in mind that Porsche has been racing the 911 in its various iterations for almost 50 years. They know all the weaknesses and strengths of that platform. Yes, the car is new, and yes there are some significant changes, but it’s nothing hard work (plenty of testing and development) can’t cure.
     
     
    Certainly true... but same could be said about Ferrari as well which has been racing mid-engined sportscars for decades. I would say that the biggest advancement on the 991 RSR from now on will probably be the new engine, even if only for its lower weight and better weight distribution. 
     
    It's still somewhat odd to see how the BoP, in an attempt to even out the cars on the grid, will shift performance from one manufactuer to the other irrespective of engineering efforts....

    Re: 991 RSR

    .....That why proper rules need to be written. Well written and well thought out. BoP (at this level of intervention) is just a cover for poorly thought out and written rules. Some Bop has always existed, but it was never so evident and evasive.

    There is always a huge outcry from fans to see more makes on the grid, and this, coupled with commercial interest drives the ACO into these types of situations. (and some BoP will always be needed , especially in the GT classes)

    I personally think that if they made a great set of rules, made sure that they were stable, let the cars race and concentrated on the fans wellbeing and promoting the series, the manufacturers would come in due time. Unfortunately, in today’s world, results are expected immediately, and this puts a lot of pressure on the executives , turning them into short-term thinkers and thus producing the results we see  before us.

    Also - I agree on the engine front, but Porsche still has a lot of work to do on the tire ware situation. They have improved, but still have a lot of work to do. They need to be able to complete a stint with lap times that are competitive.


    Re: 991 RSR

    IMO, FIA want to keep GT racing popular with as many car brands as possible. Therefore, they hand out waivers at will to convince manufacturers to enter cars. It was Porsche at some stage with the GT2 Evo, BMW with the M3 GTR and now it is A-M.

    Porsche's  time of favouritism will come again after they remain winless for period long enough to  jeopardize their interest and participation in the series.

    This series seems "arranged" to me (I don't want to say"fixed") like many other professional sport activities.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 RSR

    There is a post by one of our fellow rennteamers in the GT3 thread that has a very interesting interview with Andreas Preuninger about the GT3. In that interview he talks about the use of the new engine in motorsport. What I found very interesting is that he mentions that Porsche are still (or at least “were” at the time of the interview) considering in what form they would race the engine. Turbo was a possibility.

    This may indicate the there are discussions currently underway (with the FiA/ACO) for new rules that would make turbo powered engines once again competitive. This decision would go a long way in reducing the evasiveness of BoP as currently experienced in GT racing.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Porsche have been given another 0.3mm restrictor break for Le Mans. A real shame that they have to rely on this to be competitive.


    Re: 991 RSR

    Spyderidol:

    Porsche have been given another 0.3mm restrictor break for Le Mans. A real shame that they have to rely on this to be competitive.

    Thats BoP and it is normal that the car with least displacement gets bigger restrictor. But new engine is a must for next year. Its time to leave mezger engine in golden pages of history. 


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 991 RSR

    It already had a bigger base restrictor due to its smaller engine displacement.


     
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