Crown

BangoO:

I think the Turbo's price is OK, it's 4S at french Porsche dealers that I find very expensive...

Maybe I ask you something stupid? Why do you want to go for a Panamera? As I understood, you have a girlfriend only, no kids. I'm also not sure about your age but I suppose you are under 40?

Sorry to be blunt but I would never drive a Panamera without a family. With a girlfriend only, I would probably choose a 997 Turbo Coupe. Powerful, AWD and there is enough room for a large Samsonite luggage piece in the rear and even more. The Panamera just doesn't make sense to me...in your case.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

You're right, I'm 35 and no kids.

The reason for the Panamera is that we drive 100kms daily to go to work, and we want something more comfortable than a 911. And as this means no real sports car, we want something luxurious, but sporty at the same time.

We had a look at the new BMW 6 series, but it's almost the price of a Panamera... The new RS4 is apparently not comfortable at all, we've tested an RS5 but not fan of the looks, and the seats suck for her (too "envelopping"), Maseratis are not AWD, we do not want a 4*4 (no Cayennes, or Q5), etc..

I do find the Panamera too big and I'm a bit scared about how many times I would have to pay attention not to scratch it or touch a wheel in a parking entrance, etc... but well, we love the looks, we love the interior, and I'm pretty sure we'd love the Turbo engine... We've testing a 4S and she loves it, and I have to admit it looks smaller than it is when driving it...

You have a Turbo S, what's your experience regarding the size of the car ? (the biggest car I've had is a BMW 3 series)

By the way, I'm open to any other proposition but I've been thinking about this since the last 6 months already

Mercedes E or CLS AMG?

BangoO:

You're right, I'm 35 and no kids.

The reason for the Panamera is that we drive 100kms daily to go to work, and we want something more comfortable than a 911. And as this means no real sports car, we want something luxurious, but sporty at the same time.

We had a look at the new BMW 6 series, but it's almost the price of a Panamera... The new RS4 is apparently not comfortable at all, we've tested an RS5 but not fan of the looks, and the seats suck for her (too "envelopping"), Maseratis are not AWD, we do not want a 4*4 (no Cayennes, or Q5), etc..

I do find the Panamera too big and I'm a bit scared about how many times I would have to pay attention not to scratch it or touch a wheel in a parking entrance, etc... but well, we love the looks, we love the interior, and I'm pretty sure we'd love the Turbo engine... We've testing a 4S and she loves it, and I have to admit it looks smaller than it is when driving it...

You have a Turbo S, what's your experience regarding the size of the car ? (the biggest car I've had is a BMW 3 series)

By the way, I'm open to any other proposition but I've been thinking about this since the last 6 months already

With your requirements I would take an S5 (or even RS5) any day over the Panamera. It is cheaper, works great all year round and offers plenty of performance. Interesting you don't like the seats, my better half loves the enveloping sport seats (so do I). We are super happy with ours.

In my opinion the S5 is a lot more beautiful than the Panamera. But all in the eye of the beholder, as they say 

Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.

As you have driven a BMW 3-series, why not go for any of the 5-series - it is close to 2 cm shorter than a Pana...?

Diesel is not an option, I guess?

@sfo, I need an AWD car.

@bluelines, I find the S5 very expensive for what it is... I'm sure it would be nice to drive and all, but I say A5s and S5s everywhere, and the girlfriend is not a fan at all.

@d997h, I thought about a 5 series, but x-drive cars a very hard to find (M5 isn't). I even thought about the m550d, but it's very hard to find as well, and same price as a Panamera 4S and not far from a Turbo. The 2cms won't make much difference...

@ferdie, I'd rather not, unless it's something special like the m550d...

I don't know...driving a Panamera at 35 with no kids...kind of luxury overkill for my taste. 

Why is a 911 uncomfortable? I am 47 and I really love the 911. If I could "afford" parking one in front of my business, I would really drive one as a daily driver. For 100k EUR, you get a well equipped 997 Carrera GTS or Carrera 4S with low mileage or you can even get a 991 Carrera dealer car with some luck.

There are also lots of 997 Turbo out there for 100k EUR, AWD and the most sensational power experience included.

For the same money, you can also get the new Cayenne S Diesel, which combines low consumption with lots of power (when needed).

There are so many alternatives for a 35 year old, at your age I'd rather be cool than comfortable. 

Just saying...maybe I'm wrong.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

The 911 is not uncomfortable, but as not as comfortable as a big saloon. For sure it's better than the 500 Abarth 

I hear the 991 is more comfortable and less noisy (tyres noise) than the 997, but how would a 991 2WD drive on snow with snow tyres ? (I need to be able to do my 100kms per day every day as this would be our only car)

BangoO:

The 911 is not uncomfortable, but as not as comfortable as a big saloon. For sure it's better than the 500 Abarth 

I hear the 991 is more comfortable and less noisy (tyres noise) than the 997, but how would a 991 2WD drive on snow with snow tyres ? (I need to be able to do my 100kms per day every day as this would be our only car)

Listen, I would give anything if I could drive 100 km per day every day in a 911.  Just saying...

Yes, the 991 is more comfortable but PASM (not the -20 mm PASM option) is recommended for the most comfortable ride. Also stick with the 19'' wheels.

How about a test-drive at your local Porsche dealer? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I agree with RC on the 911 call.  If you are going Panamera I would go for the GTS - I don't know the pricing and I think we are spoiled in the US at having much lower price points than you have in Europe so maybe it is more expensive than you are looking at.  But my friend had the Turbo and traded it in for the GTS and stated to me that he is incredibly happy about his choice.  

bhnyc:

I agree with RC on the 911 call.  If you are going Panamera I would go for the GTS - I don't know the pricing and I think we are spoiled in the US at having much lower price points than you have in Europe so maybe it is more expensive than you are looking at.  But my friend had the Turbo and traded it in for the GTS and stated to me that he is incredibly happy about his choice.  

The GTS sounds amazing and I wish my Turbo S would sound the same but I think the GTS is too expensive (yet), I haven't seen any used GTS for under 120k EUR lately. For speed limited countries, where 0-200 kph (125 mph) or over performance doesn't really matter, the GTS is really a very good choice. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Yes GTS is too expensive at the moment...

RC, how do you think a 991 (therefore not AWD) with 20" winter tyres would behave on snow ? Would you still do 100 kms per day in these conditions ?

PS: I'd only take a 991 with 20", it just looks too good with those to ever put 19" on it...

Have you looked at the Bentley GT?

Good value used these days...

Yes I have, but I can't go to work with that... considered as a millionaire's car around here...

I don't think rear wheel drive or all-wheel drive makes a real difference on the 911, speaking from own experience. I rather found the C4S nervous on snow when the front wheels struggle to get the power down and at the same time has to steer the car. I rather have the front wheels only applying steering force, rather than competing driving and steering forces. I guess that is mostly down to the 911 weight distribution with more weight on the rear wheels and it does not apply to other all-wheel drive cars, especially not the ones with the engine in the front 

In short, I never had an issue with traction on any C2S I have owed and I have been through very snowy and icy roads in the winters (e.g. as daily driver to work, up the alps in the weekends, longer skiing trips, etc).

Did you consider the GT-R? It has all-wheel drive, performance in abundance and is comfortable as a daily driver. Not expensive either, unless it falls apart 

Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.

Don't debate with yourself or other posters any more.  Go with the Panamera GTS or Turbo.  Both are fabulous cars, and give you the option of carrying any friends in elegant and sporty style.  

Wonderbar:

Don't debate with yourself or other posters any more.  Go with the Panamera GTS or Turbo.  Both are fabulous cars, and give you the option of carrying any friends in elegant and sporty style.  

Sydney, no offense but he is 35 years old and doesn't even have a family, the Panamera would be kind of a luxury overkill for him in my opinion. With the exception of the GTS maybe but right now, the GTS seems to be out of his price range.

I still think the 991 would be a good choice and yes, even the RWD version isn't bad at all on snow but as a daily driver, I would prefer AWD in winter time (I live in Bavaria though, different cup of tea I guess). 20'' on snow? Well, the tires wouldn't probably be the real issue here, there are good 20'' winter tires available but what about the rims? I wouldn't drive 20'' rims on a 911 daily driver in winter, one little damage could get very expensive. The 20'' rims for the 991 aren't really cheap, to say at least.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

BangoO:

Hello,

The goal is to buy either a used Panamera 4S or a Turbo (with between 10.000 kms and 40'000 kms), keep it 1 year and drive 30.000kms, then sale it, buy another one, etc...

First, is the price premium of the Turbo really worth it ?

Which one would depreciate the most ?

Is there a big difference in terms of fuel consumption and service cost ?

Finally, both cars would have the 20" Turbo II wheels and must be equiped with winter tyres 5 months per year (19" are not an option). What tyres should I choose, and how good would it be on snow ?

Thank you !

BangoO

Get the turbo,well worth it over the 4S,i guess will depreciate more starting next year once the face lift models hit the market,the turbo's consumption is high (even higher when driven hard) but that is stating the obvious...

I have the Pirelli's 20's on the Cayenne and Michelin 20's on the Panamera,both are good though i feel the Pirellis are better

Just saw this on a newsletter I get. A very good deal to my point of view. The car has nearly all options !! And it is -57% of starting price .

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

Just saw this on a newsletter I get. A very good deal to my point of view. The car has nearly all options !! And it is -57% of starting price .

There are only a couple of issues here:

1. Switzerland isn't part of the EU (tax issue)

2. This is not an official Porsche dealer (warranty issue)

3. The car in the photo looks more like a Turbo to me

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Thx Gnil, but indeed I need to add the french taxes to that, it would cost 84k€.

It's a good price, but as RC says who knows where the car comes from...

RC:

There are only a couple of issues here:

1. Switzerland isn't part of the EU (tax issue)

2. This is not an official Porsche dealer (warranty issue)

3. The car in the photo looks more like a Turbo to me

Why is it a warranty issue? The remaining factory warranty is on the car, not the dealer. Plus the warranty can be extended by an official dealer (assuming it passes the 112 point check).

Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.

BangoO:

It's a good price, but as RC says who knows where the car comes from...

I am confident it was built by Porsche and not a Lada with a Panamera look-alike body kit 

Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.

bluelines:

RC:

There are only a couple of issues here:

1. Switzerland isn't part of the EU (tax issue)

2. This is not an official Porsche dealer (warranty issue)

3. The car in the photo looks more like a Turbo to me

Why is it a warranty issue? The remaining factory warranty is on the car, not the dealer. Plus the warranty can be extended by an official dealer (assuming it passes the 112 point check).

Exactly, no warranty issue.

This compagny has been on the place for some time now and does loads of high end cars. That should not be a problem. ( But you are right about not knowing where the car comes from. But at an official dealer you also do not always know... or you know but you do not know how the car was treated  )

I did not think that you have it with french license plates as you work in Geneva 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

bluelines:

Why is it a warranty issue? The remaining factory warranty is on the car, not the dealer. Plus the warranty can be extended by an official dealer (assuming it passes the 112 point check).

1. Porsche will always favor cars bought from official dealers regarding warranty issues and a possible grace period after the warranty expires

2. The factory warranty is connected to various conditions and are you sure the current dealer really cared about them?

3. The official Porsche dealer can deny a warranty extension if the car hasn't been bought from an official dealer and/or if there are issues with the maintenance

4. I'm pretty sure it is quite easy to buy a car from a Swiss dealer (as a french buyer), pay taxes and everything and then go back to the dealer when there are issues (used car = dealer who sold it actually needs to take care of the issues first). 

I could argue all day long about buying cars from non official dealers but I know that many don't agree with me. I heard so many stories about problems and some friends and/or people I know had issues with non-official dealers too, so I am not really a friend of such dealers.

Also last but not least, ask yourself: Why would actually a used Panamera show up at a non-official dealer? Two possibilities only: The seller got himself a different car from the very same dealer or the dealer bought this car from another dealer for a very special price. Nothing in life is for free.

I prefer the easy (and trouble free) way, even if it costs more.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Bluelines!  - EXACTLY

I totally agree.  To think otherwise would trash our own cars resale value.  Porsche built them.  They have a warranty regardless who sells them AND they are great cars.  Each car has a history of sorts and a reason why it was sold.  Porsche dealers will sell crappy used cars just like any dealer - they will just give you less for it and then sell it like if it was a premium car.  To believe otherwise would be to suggest that a Porsche dealer would turn away 'bad' used Porsches. lol - seriously that is funny. I have never found the need to buy from a Porsche Dealer.  He ignores me when I visit from time to time.   My last few cars have been eBay dealers in Texas - they have feeback on eBay and it works great!  My dealer has no Feedback mechanism and it shows.  Funny how RC gets frustrated with the dealer (Panamera delivery ring a bell) but still spends money there.   I don't deal with people who don't know how to take care of business.  Here in the US if you have an issue with a car under warranty you take it to a dealer - NOT to the used car place you bought it from (any more than you would take it to an individual you might have bought it from).  I doubt it is that way in Europe.

To think you might get some free 'after warranty' service because you always took it to a dealer is NOT true in the states but keep in mind that we have a no questions asked FOUR year 50K MILES warranty to start with.  Porsche in Germany is not going you a tiny favor by performing free service after your SHORTER warranty runs out - the fact is they give you a crap warranty that limits your chioices to start with so they are not really doing you any favors.  Maybe all this makes sense in RC's Germany - but not in the US - and thankfully our prices and warranties are better for NEW and USED Porsches - go figure.  Competition - love the USA.

Bottom line is that if we all only buy from Porsche dealers it makes Porsche dealers richer and owners of Porsches the losers.  We want more value and more equity in our cars - not excuses to trash our resale values.  I would assume the purpose of this forum is to be able to enjoy Porsche ownership, make it affordable ANDget as many people driving Porsches as possible.  That helps Porsche the most and makes our cars more valuable and better in the future.

I guess there are owners of Porsches like me who have never even had a Porsche car payment (seven Porsches and counting in 30+ years) and want to protect the value of our cars and then there are people who just lease and move on without any interest in resale or equity other than to have the next latest thing.  They have zero stake in the value of the car and it shows, sadly.

RC:

1. Porsche will always favor cars bought from official dealers regarding warranty issues and a possible grace period after the warranty expires

Porsche would end up in major trouble (e.g. lawsuits) if they don't honour the warranty by discrimination of the seller. It is a contract and it is not broken because the car is resold, official dealer or not.

RC:

2. The factory warranty is connected to various conditions and are you sure the current dealer really cared about them?

Except for outstanding service intervals and non-approved modifications, which both are down to the previous owner(s) and not the dealer, what are you referring to?

RC:

3. The official Porsche dealer can deny a warranty extension if the car hasn't been bought from an official dealer and/or if there are issues with the maintenance

Only true for issues with the maintenance, not where you bought the car from. I have already asked an official dealer about this case.

RC:

4. I'm pretty sure it is quite easy to buy a car from a Swiss dealer (as a french buyer), pay taxes and everything and then go back to the dealer when there are issues (used car = dealer who sold it actually needs to take care of the issues first). 

Again, the warranty is on the car, not the dealer. If you buy the car from a private person, do you run back to that person to claim warranty? Just saying 

Personal experience: I had an issue with a broken alternator on a 911 which was bought from a non-official dealer. I went by an official dealer, they checked what was wrong, they checked the warranty expiry date and replaced the alternator. No questions asked.

Porsche 997 Carrera S in Carrara White with black leather interior. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

Audi S5 cabrio in Ibis White with black leather interior.

bluelines:

RC:

1. Porsche will always favor cars bought from official dealers regarding warranty issues and a possible grace period after the warranty expires

Porsche would end up in major trouble (e.g. lawsuits) if they don't honour the warranty by discrimination of the seller. It is a contract and it is not broken because the car is resold, official dealer or not.

The real world looks different. 

RC:

2. The factory warranty is connected to various conditions and are you sure the current dealer really cared about them?

Except for outstanding service intervals and non-approved modifications, which both are down to the previous owner(s) and not the dealer, what are you referring to?

Non-official dealers can barely check if the car has been maintained properly, which also refers to non-approved modifications.

RC:

3. The official Porsche dealer can deny a warranty extension if the car hasn't been bought from an official dealer and/or if there are issues with the maintenance

Only true for issues with the maintenance, not where you bought the car from. I have already asked an official dealer about this case.

You asked him. Did you actually buy a car from an non-official dealer and tried to get the Porsche warranty for it? 

RC:

4. I'm pretty sure it is quite easy to buy a car from a Swiss dealer (as a french buyer), pay taxes and everything and then go back to the dealer when there are issues (used car = dealer who sold it actually needs to take care of the issues first). 

Again, the warranty is on the car, not the dealer. If you buy the car from a private person, do you run back to that person to claim warranty? Just saying 

Personal experience: I had an issue with a broken alternator on a 911 which was bought from a non-official dealer. I went by an official dealer, they checked what was wrong, they checked the warranty expiry date and replaced the alternator. No questions asked.

You were lucky. Not all official dealers are keen to deal with cars which haven't been bought from them or other official dealers. Unless of course there are no warranty issues and you pay cash. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4