Crown

savvy:

What I am reading here seems to boil down to two views:

1. I am the man Porsche AG wants me to be. I do what I am told. I fear all unknowns and fear drives my life. My primary concern is to attempt offload of any and all imagined risks, any financial cost is acceptable in this pursuit. Masters are to be obeyed.

2. I am my own man. I seek to follow my passion. Kool-Aid is my least favorite drink. I will avoid paying the Porsche Tax at every opportunity. I am driven to seek the best of what life has to offer and refuse to be fueled by irrational fears.

Some people fear freedom and seek to be controlled. From a psychological perspective I understand the concept.

@savvy: I understand and respect your view but, for reasons I have already explained regarding how Porsche GB handles its contractual terms, I don't share it. However, your post is condescending and insults the intelligence of people who think differently from you.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

savvy:

What I am reading here seems to boil down to two views:

1. I am the man Porsche AG wants me to be. I do what I am told. I fear all unknowns and fear drives my life. My primary concern is to attempt offload of any and all imagined risks, any financial cost is acceptable in this pursuit. Masters are to be obeyed.

2. I am my own man. I seek to follow my passion. Kool-Aid is my least favorite drink. I will avoid paying the Porsche Tax at every opportunity. I am driven to seek the best of what life has to offer and refuse to be fueled by irrational fears.

Some people fear freedom and seek to be controlled. From a psychological perspective I understand the concept.

Sounds more like a US Republican speaking... 

Don't worry...I'm on your side (politically speaking). 

I get it: You are a real and free spirited man because you modded your car.  

My definition of a real man is a little bit different though and has no connection to cars. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

pierre:

If someone buys this kind of car to keep it under a blanket in a heated garage and never touch it, I say it's heresy! Driving it from home to the next high-end restaurant or hotel is silly as well, but at least there's some (sort of) driving involved. Actually, I guess that the huge majority of the RS 4.0 are going to live that kind of sad life.

Now, if someone buys such a toy and fully enjoys it, that's great! And if some (well-thought/done) mods are needed to increase the fun factor, so be it!

So why does somebody sell such a car...which apparently he modded with love and passion (or not)? 

If I take you as an example (if I may)...what mileage does your modded 996 Turbo exactly have?  You are actually the best proof that I am right, you don't sell such a car after you put so much money and passion into it.

Lots of sports car and even more track drivers put too much emphasis on improving the hardware. I would improve my driving skills first, this makes more sense from my experience and not only my own.

So why not enjoy a perfectly capable stock car with a proper setup (chassis, wing, tires, etc.) and instead of putting big money into a car, I would use that money to improve my driving skills. Something which would benefit me even after I sell the car. 

Cheers. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC - Sounds more like a US Republican speaking...

that's it, I don't like Porsche politics trying to make me into a democratic Porsche owner.  I prefer the conservative approach to car ownership - well put RC, I could not have framed it better.  Sehr gut mein Herr.

There are two different types of owner who are commenting this thread.

The one who has his car for ' driving around' and is very cost conscious . That one needs and wants a working warrantee , so he has to stick to Porsche parts. And the most important thing to him is not to have any unwanted troubles.

 And the one who buys his car to track it  and wants it to make it the best possible ( Porsche is not at the top with every part they stick on our cars. They do make compromises and think about costs ) That one will change parts to improve it. And that's cool too. 

If you go to track events, you will see that the fastest guys have very  rarely  their Porsche ( or any other brands ) still stock . Rims are most of the time changed to lighter ones, suspensions are changed etc....

First thing I would change on my car  ( if It would become a track car ) would be the brakes !!! As they do not cope enough .

A member of this forum actually just sold his very moded Boxster yesterday. The dealer actually bought it , as he found the car to be so great 

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

If you go to track events, you will see that the fastest guys have very  rarely  their Porsche ( or any other brands ) still stock . Rims are most of the time changed to lighter ones, suspensions are changed etc....

These guys are also always the fastest ones, right? 

You can't generalize. I know so many GT3 RS (not 4.0) drivers who heavily modded their cars and who race their cars even in Club events but most of them, I would call "passionate amateur drivers" rather than "talented amateur drivers", if you get my point. I don't say that you can race your car without mods but most club or more serious track events have rules anyways, incl. regarding mods.

Thats not the point however, I think we are misunderstanding each other: The thread started with a GT3 RS 4.0 being sold on eBay and I said I wouldn't buy a heavily modded (aftermarket parts) car. If the owner would have decided to keep the car and track race it, I wouldn't have made a single comment. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC was saying that savvy's post 'sounded like it was coming from a US Republican' i.e. in tone and style, not that the aftermarket vs stock approaches are aligned to the US Republican vs Democrat battle. Our US Rennteamers should do us all a favour and keep US domestic politics out of a discussion about warranties and aftermarket modifications ! :)

--

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Lol, as of today people owning stock cars are considered Democrats. 

......And then the rebel colonists passed the Warren Moss Warranty Act in 1775,.. er 1975

Basically if you modify a car in the US its up to the Manufacturer to prove that any modifications, non standard parts etc.. actually, really, did contribute to or cause the problem that you seek to have the manufacturer cover under the factory warranty of the vehicle.

A manufacturer can broadly attempt to not comply with the Warren Moss Act, but he's just dancing until attorney XYZ  flattens him.

Would love to have a go in that! 

2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

I started out reading this thread thinking: "wow - modding a GT3 RS 4.0 - what an idiot!  In 10 years time someone will be going around trying to piece it back together in original condition again..."

I now completely understand Savvy's point of view and totally get it.  These cars are for driving - they're neither museum pieces or investments.

And there's nothing more condescending than a little winking smiley after making a point, so I'm not sure if it's fair to chastise Savvy for being a tad more colourful in his imagery. 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

+1 and then to allow one person to introduce politics into the discussion, but chastise the next person seems a bit off

"No wonder "only" 120k USD have been bid. 245k??? For a modded RS 4.0?  This guy is insane."

That was condescending. I thought I showed notable restraint in my responses given the sharpness of the stick to my eye.

I'm still waiting for Carrera to report on his LSD research? Perhaps busy reading the threads...no response either to my original questions to RC. So I will offer some facts:

• Porsche has used Rays wheels as an OE supplier for their race cars. The G12 centerlock wheels feature a knurled bead seat to prevent tire rotating on the rim. So when driving with gusto, you don't wind up with a shaking car afterwards because the wheels came out of balance. Weight rating per wheel (F or R) is 735kg - super strong, yet very light at 19/22 lbs f/r.
• Movit brakes are/were OE on some of the most expensive and high-performing cars in the world.
• Surface Transforms/Movit carbon/silicon/carbide rotors never wear out, can go from car to car to car yet the full system weighs less than Porsche OE steel system (the ST front rotors are 396mm / 380mm!)
• MovIt billet calipers have twice the deformation psi as the Porsche Brembo calipers and virtually eliminate the pad tapering problem that is so darn aggravating with OE brakes.
• Lithionics Lithium Ion battery shuts itself off if its voltage drops too low, saving enough energy before doing so to enable several engine starts upon reawakening. And employs a remote key-fob to activate by remote control the on/off functionality. How many here know what happens when your battery dies? Locked out of the frunk pal! Get you fusebox jumpers to get to the battery.
• Need I discuss the quality of Akrapovic? Seriously?

The thing that has fired me up was the public judgement and assignment of value by posters who seemingly know/knew nothing of the details of the mods. If you want to debate modifications and value propositions of each in a factual and analytical fashion I welcome that.  I will not accept a public berating from those who know not of which they speak.

The car is for sale because I enjoy the challenge of each particular project and always have an eye to the next one. If it does not sell, well then, I am in the enviable position of  continuing to drive it as much as I like, how I like. The world is rich with opportunity and joy for any free-thinking entrepreneurial individual.

I am in full agreement that many car owners will benefit first and foremost from driving instruction. Porsche Sport Driving School in the USA is my personal favorite, having attended it on three different occasions. As an SCCA credentialed Time-Trials and PDX driving instructor I know how my students have progressed to become safer, faster, more competent drivers.

Appreciate your knowledgeable reply, especially interesting reading about the Movit-brakes.

savvy:

"No wonder "only" 120k USD have been bid. 245k??? For a modded RS 4.0?  This guy is insane."

That was condescending. I thought I showed notable restraint in my responses given the sharpness of the stick to my eye.

OK, here's the thing: You didn't start this thread and I didn't know that you are selling the car...until you actually got involved into the discussion. 

This is like bashing Obama and then Obama himself joins the discussion, telling me how unfair and condescending this was.

No offense meant but people who propagate freedom of speech also need to learn how to take the heat. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

savvy:

The car is for sale because I enjoy the challenge of each particular project and always have an eye to the next one.

The initial thread starter didn't mention a word about this, so didn't you...until now. 

If you are looking for challenges, I may give you one: GT3 RSR...modded to over 800 hp. How does this one sound?  (and I am serious about it since one of our buddies has one...).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Budster:

I started out reading this thread thinking: "wow - modding a GT3 RS 4.0 - what an idiot!  In 10 years time someone will be going around trying to piece it back together in original condition again..."

I now completely understand Savvy's point of view and totally get it.  These cars are for driving - they're neither museum pieces or investments.

Of course the 4.0 is for driving...but why mod it if you don't really gain much from the mods? 

I now get the seller's reason (project, challenge...) and I envy him that he can afford to do that with a RS 4.0 but I wouldn't do it and those who actually own a GT3 RS 4.0, and I know at least half a dozens of owners, wouldn't do it either.

I would have never replied to this thread if the owner of the car would have actually showed off his car, including the mods.
I don't know if this is a language thing or a mentality thing or both but i stated clearly that I wouldn't buy such a car. The whole mods discussion and the reason for them started after that, initiated by the owner who sells it.

Actually the owner made my point: He is moving on, he isn't even driving the car anymore (or at least he doesn't want to). I guess I am too old (or too young?) to understand this or I just don't have enough money. For me, the GT3 RS 4.0 is a classic, a car which should be driven hard and as often as possible, incl. the track but otherwise, I wouldn't touch it. At least not with aftermarket mods. 

Maybe my English isn't that good?  Sorry about that then.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

savvy:

"No wonder "only" 120k USD have been bid. 245k??? For a modded RS 4.0?  This guy is insane."

That was condescending. I thought I showed notable restraint in my responses given the sharpness of the stick to my eye.

....

The thing that has fired me up was the public judgement and assignment of value by posters who seemingly know/knew nothing of the details of the mods .... I will not accept a public berating from those who know not of which they speak ...

@savvy: it's clumsy to lump together all the views you don't agree with and then tar them all with the same brush.

I was focussing on the warranty aspects only. RC was focussing on aftermarket mods per se, the originality of the car and the consequent impact on resale values. I haven't participated on those aspects. If you felt RC was being condescending on one strand of the discussion, that doesn't excuse or justify you adopting a condescending tone on another strand of the discussion.

I am a lawyer with 2 decades experience of practising English law. It goes without saying that I have a thorough understanding of English contract law, in particular, warranties and how such contractual terms are interpreted.

If I interpret the enforceability of a warranty a certain way, it is not because of fear. It is because I know the position under English law and, from my years of experience, I know how companies seek to wriggle out of honouring their contractual obligations given half a chance.

Other people are not as fearful or foolish as you might think at first glance. People should be able to disagree with you without being labelled pejoratively.

--

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Savvy - Easy and RC mean well.  They can't help it. 

For certain MOST of us are with you 100% - now how much $ for the 4.0 - PM me.

Leawood911:

now how much $ for the 4.0 - PM me.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I will assume you are not being condescending by that RC. I don't mock your purchase of the Panamara (talk about glass houses).

Prost

Leawood911:

Easy and RC mean well.  They can't help it. 

For certain MOST of us are with you 100% - now how much $ for the 4.0 - PM me.

Why are you speaking for me?

Hey, the last person I would want speaking for me is someone who believes in the conspiracies about Obama's birthplace  Just teasing

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

Leawood911:

Easy and RC mean well.  They can't help it. 

For certain MOST of us are with you 100% - now how much $ for the 4.0 - PM me.

Why are you speaking for me?
 

Easy, you were speaking for RC, and now I'm speaking for Leawood.  Perhaps someone can jump in quick and speak for me?

I love this forum: we argue so politely. 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Haha :)

FWIW I was clarifying how what I was saying was on a different topic from what RC was talking about so I was actually still speaking just for me :)

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Silliest thread I have seen in ages. The curators versus the drivers, whether European or US. Quite entertaining.

Do you drive it just to sell it before the warranty expires, or do you drive it until you kill it; or somethin inbetween?

Owners who don't void their warranties are not "curators" of items that are merely displayed in a museum. They drive (i.e. use) their cars just like other people. What they choose not to do is modify their cars. It's hard to discuss issues sensibly when distortion is the preferred method of debate.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Hey I started this thread - so there...  besides I was standing up for you two.  I think you are great guys (RC and EASY).  Just not as old and wise as me.

Easy - I don't care about his birth place. I am stunned that after all my focus on having TWO CITIZEN parents you would think I give a hoot about where he was born.  Only lack of objectivity  would make you miss my point so many times.  Allow me to be clear again -  If I accept EVERYTHING I have been told BY OBAMA and believe it I am left wondering who someone can be NATURAL BORN without having two citizen parents.  Just wanted to make that clear.

To somehow believe that the term natural born is not defined and it is the only word in the english language that eludes clarity is a sign of way too much cool-aid.  There have been documented efforts to cloud the definition and hide related supreme court cases - to alllow yourself to believe this is a word that is not defined or clear is like listening to Bill Clinton debate the meaning of the word 'IS' and be convinced of his sincerity.  Trust me, you could do worse than have me speak for you. I have your back.

  BTW his lawyers latest defense in a florida court was that he is not the official democratic nominee yet, so he can't be challenged on his citizenship or eligibility. How much more insane is that comparded to me just believing everything he tells me about his father. Think they are afraid?  Very...

Back to the 4.0 - I have the cash to make a reasonable offer.  I would certainly add a few more miles in a hurry.  Too often I have 'perfected' my cars only to get restless and move on so I know what this owner is doing all too well.  I would be nice to be on the receiving end of someones emthusiasm.  Having all the original parts makes this a no brainer.  Can't believe someone complained about not giving away the third set of wheels and tires.  lol

You know me.  It seems it could be bought for about what RC is paying for the Turbo S - which by the way is an incredible car.

Leawood if you buy that rocket ship...please either change the headliner or photoshop it to another color.

easy_rider911:

Hey, the last person I would want speaking for me is someone who believes in the conspiracies about Obama's birthplace  Just teasing

Good thing you're just teasing 

Otherwise, you might seem like a anti-fact-based Obama fanboy 

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

Leawood911:

I will assume you are not being condescending by that RC. I don't mock your purchase of the Panamara (talk about glass houses).

Prost

Apparently you never drove a Panamera Turbo S. 

I get it...US high performance cars need to have manual, two doors and all-season tires (oh wait, this is only you). 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4