Crown

I think the Porsche 991 Turbo will be like all the other 911 Turbo, a sporty GT.

The spot described by your numbers RC will be taken by the new model that will slot between the 911 and the 918, a direct competitor to the 12C, next 458 etc. and closer to the 300k euros price tag.

Futch:

I think the Porsche 991 Turbo will be like all the other 911 Turbo, a sporty GT.

The spot described by your numbers RC will be taken by the new model that will slot between the 911 and the 918, a direct competitor to the 12C, next 458 etc. and closer to the 300k euros price tag.

 

This is the problem with Porsche. Their GT-R competitors are in the supercar class in terms of price and therefore any impact is taken away. It is no good if the  GT2 RS or the new model you describe beats the GT-R. Porsche need an aspirational model that ordinary enthusiasts and fans of the marque could afford, like the 993 Turbo was in its time.

Why the 458 has never been compared with the GT-R in terms of NBR time? Because Ferrari is a supercar brand and no one who buys Ferrari even thinks of a Nissan. Porsche are a premium manufacturer now with the SUVs etc, just above Mercedes and BMW perhaps, and they need much stronger products at any given price bracket to be credible as a manufacturer of special cars.

"Form follows function"

Futch:

I think the Porsche 991 Turbo will be like all the other 911 Turbo, a sporty GT.

The spot described by your numbers RC will be taken by the new model that will slot between the 911 and the 918, a direct competitor to the 12C, next 458 etc. and closer to the 300k euros price tag.

 

Any news/confirmation of this car Futch?

Futch:

I think the Porsche 991 Turbo will be like all the other 911 Turbo, a sporty GT.

The spot described by your numbers RC will be taken by the new model that will slot between the 911 and the 918, a direct competitor to the 12C, next 458 etc. and closer to the 300k euros price tag.

 

This is exactly the problem: I expect from the rumored mid engined model over the 911 Turbo to be by far superior to the 12C, next 458 and so on. 

I know that my estimates for the 991 Turbo were "conservative" but still impressive. We are talking about a daily driver here, not an exotic car like the 12C or the 458.

Unfortunately I'm afraid that judging by the 991 Carrera S prices, the 991 Turbo will start closer to 160k EUR in Germany, incl. 19% VAT. This is almost 10k EUR more than the 997 Turbo. Ouch.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Spyderidol:

Futch:

I think the Porsche 991 Turbo will be like all the other 911 Turbo, a sporty GT.

The spot described by your numbers RC will be taken by the new model that will slot between the 911 and the 918, a direct competitor to the 12C, next 458 etc. and closer to the 300k euros price tag.

 

Any news/confirmation of this car Futch?

 Honestly no, just some internet rumors but they have been so strong I would tend to believe it. I think Muller the CEO has also mentionned doing a model that would slot between the top of the range 911 and the 918.

RC:

Futch:

I think the Porsche 991 Turbo will be like all the other 911 Turbo, a sporty GT.

The spot described by your numbers RC will be taken by the new model that will slot between the 911 and the 918, a direct competitor to the 12C, next 458 etc. and closer to the 300k euros price tag.

 

This is exactly the problem: I expect from the rumored mid engined model over the 911 Turbo to be by far superior to the 12C, next 458 and so on. 

I know that my estimates for the 991 Turbo were "conservative" but still impressive. We are talking about a daily driver here, not an exotic car like the 12C or the 458.

Unfortunately I'm afraid that judging by the 991 Carrera S prices, the 991 Turbo will start closer to 160k EUR in Germany, incl. 19% VAT. This is almost 10k EUR more than the 997 Turbo. Ouch.

 Indeed. And that's before you start picking into the options lists! Even on a Turbo, it is not difficult to a nice spec car with 30k eur worth of options.

A fully optioned 991 Carrera S is already around 150k EUR. This is just insane.

Why would I spend that much money on a Carrera S? I wait one year and I get the same car, used, for at least 40k EUR less.  Porsche was always about keeping it's value but if prices for the "regular" models reach incredible heights, I doubt that prices will stay on that high level. Looking at the used car lot at my dealer, I would say...not.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

A fully optioned 991 Carrera S is already around 150k EUR. This is just insane.

Why would I spend that much money on a Carrera S? I wait one year and I get the same car, used, for at least 40k EUR less. 

But if most people  think like that, where would the used cars come from in sufficient numbers to drop used prices?

Anyway I don't think the 991S needs €50k worth of extras. A €120-125k (German prices) gives a perfect 911. IMO the 991 is a very complete package now for all sorts of driving except large families. The only alternatives for the enthusiast are the AMG C class and the M3 which being based on mainstream models are cheaper.

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"Form follows function"

I don't know I optioned a 991 CarreraS as I would order it if I were in the martket for one now and it came out for 145,000€ and thats not going overboard with options.

When we do a theoretical configuration we tend to add everything including the Powerkit.

For example I wouldn't order Ceramic brakes and PDCC. Only those 2 options if included add 12k EUR to the price. Also I never liked full leather and the heavy multi-adjustable seats on a sports Porsche. There's another 6.5k EUR.

I would include most other useful things and also Special paint.

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"Form follows function"

Maybe I am wrong but I get the feeling that when the 911 was cheaper, the residual value was also a little bit better, simply because people are willing to pay xx.xxx EUR for a used 911 Carrera but not necessarily xxx.xxx EUR. 

So when a 911 Carrera S hit 120k EUR new, it sold for 95k or so used.

Now that it easily hits 130k EUR new, it still sells for 95k or so used.
 

I think you get my point.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I understand. Therefore the buyer from new must not overspecify the car, avoiding some expensive options. I think Ceramics and Powerkit might make the car more attractive to a potential used car buyer, so the car could be sold more quickly, but the first owner would only recoup only a fraction of the original cost. Same with special leather, stitching, the most expensive wheels  etc.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

I understand. Therefore the buyer from new must not overspecify the car, avoiding some expensive options. I think Ceramics and Powerkit might make the car more attractive to a potential used car buyer, so the car could be sold more quickly, but the first owner would only recoup only a fraction of the original cost. Same with special leather, stitching, the most expensive wheels  etc.

My dealer always advices me not to put too many specs into the car if I don't plan to keep it longer.

It makes his job easier when he has to sell this car. 

Most people over here (in Germany, don't know about other regions) don't care about power kits or PCCB, this would definitely be the wrong "investment" to keep the residual value up. Same goes to tons of leather.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Current 911 really got expensive. But it's not that much the base price, but the expensive options, that make the difference. I'm not talking about PCCB or X51 here, which of course cost you a lot. But all those technical goodies like PDK, PASM, PTV or Sport Chrono - which you really want - are responsible for the price hike. Together with the "traditional" options you'll end up much at a much higher price than you did with the predecessors. And this higher price will also lead to a bigger depreciation.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Rossi:

Current 911 really got expensive. But it's not that much the base price, but the expensive options, that make the difference. I'm not talking about PCCB or X51 here, which of course cost you a lot. But all those technical goodies like PDK, PASM, PTV or Sport Chrono - which you really want - are responsible for the price hike. Together with the "traditional" options you'll end up much at a much higher price than you did with the predecessors. And this higher price will also lead to a bigger depreciation.

I wish I could have said it that well... 

I don't get it: On a 991 Carrera S, PDK/PASM/PTV/Sport Chrono/etc. should at least be FREE, even if optional.

Performance options, with the exception of the powerkit and PCCB maybe, should be FREE of cost.

Adding all performance options already makes the 991 pretty expensive, especially the Carrera.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Weird: I think I got a bargain getting my GTS for ZAR1.2m (about $160,000 at the time).  Maybe I'm crazy, but there was simply nothing else I wanted, and there was nothing else for that money - or even 50% more - that I would have wanted more.

Well, maybe a GT3...

Seriously, what are the true alternatives at the same of a lower price..?  A C63 AMG is to me (and many other people) a tarted up C-Class Merc. Same for anything out of BMW or Audi.   I know RC will disagree, and maybe I'm a shameless brand-slave.   The only other option I was even remotely considering was an AM or Mazer at 50% more.  No hang on - actually I wasn't. 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

What % of Porsche profits come from the 911 model range? We know that a very small % (if any) comes from the Boxster/Cayman segment.

reginos:

When we do a theoretical configuration we tend to add everything including the Powerkit.

For example I wouldn't order Ceramic brakes and PDCC. Only those 2 options if included add 12k EUR to the price. Also I never liked full leather and the heavy multi-adjustable seats on a sports Porsche. There's another 6.5k EUR.

I would include most other useful things and also Special paint.

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"Form follows function"

No PCCB nor Powerkit, just how I would of ordered it if I were to do it now. No matter how I played with the option its would not go bellow 140-145k. Its wht Rossi says about all the sport options that should be included but are not and you have to get otherwise its a watered down 911.

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RC:

Maybe I am wrong but I get the feeling that when the 911 was cheaper, the residual value was also a little bit better, simply because people are willing to pay xx.xxx EUR for a used 911 Carrera but not necessarily xxx.xxx EUR. 

So when a 911 Carrera S hit 120k EUR new, it sold for 95k or so used.

Now that it easily hits 130k EUR new, it still sells for 95k or so used.
 

I think you get my point.

Very correct! I bought my 996 cab at 3 years old, fully specced, for a reasonable price, sold it 3 years later for x-money.

That moment i bought a new 997S cab (only with most necessary options, e.g no full leather ; drove it for 6 years and sold it with 69K on the clock. I got exactly the same amount for it than i did 6 years before for the 996 (with 98K on the counter). I'd the intention to buy a new 991S cab, but it costs 30K more than the 997 in 2005!

Assuming it depreciates like the 997, it means i would loose 30k more in 5 years, so i said, no thx!

I bought my R8 (3 years old) drive it for 3 years and search a 991 2nd hand.

Prices are going up so quick, but that wouldn't be a problem when used cars would follow the same direction.

Unfortunately this isn't the case.

965 3.3turbo/  993 targa / 996 cab /997S cab

Audi R8  //  Audi A5 S-line 3.0tdi Quattro/ RR 4.4i

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

When we do a theoretical configuration we tend to add everything including the Powerkit.

For example I wouldn't order Ceramic brakes and PDCC. Only those 2 options if included add 12k EUR to the price. Also I never liked full leather and the heavy multi-adjustable seats on a sports Porsche. There's another 6.5k EUR.

I would include most other useful things and also Special paint.

--

"Form follows function"

No PCCB nor Powerkit, just how I would of ordered it if I were to do it now. No matter how I played with the option its would not go bellow 140-145k. Its wht Rossi says about all the sport options that should be included but are not and you have to get otherwise its a watered down 911.

For the budget minded (and how many are not  not in the current economic climate in Europe at least ) I found that the 3.4 Carrera with basic spec e.g. No PASM, 19" wheels and no SC is a very good sportscar and as a fast as a 997.2 on the road. I would have only added LSD compared to the test car I drove and leave the leather dashboard out.

Subjectively the buyer might feel that he missed out because the S model exists plus the numerous extras available and have regrets for his choice of a basic model. But objectively I don't think that there are better real sportscars around for the price. Unless the buyer wants a fast coupe from the three premium German manufacturers, but this is something else.

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"Form follows function"

Right now, there are many many nice 997, incl. 997 Carrera GTS, available on the used car market in Germany. In a year or so, so will be 991 models. I would go for a slightly used 991, with some luck fully optioned for "little" money. 

Maybe I'm spoiled but after getting that C63 for that little money and being very happy with my decision, I just don't see the point of spending a fortune on a brand-new car, unless of course I would lease it.

Even my wife started thinking that way: Instead of getting a brand new Macan Diesel next year, she may opt for a slightly used Cayenne Diesel. Cayenne used car prices should drop, once the Macan shows up and people start to switch. It will happen.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

It makes a lot of financial sense to buy used especially if you don't internd to keep the car for too long. However, there is a joy in specifying your own car and even waiting for it and I would add keeping it for many years like a companion. 

Most of the Porsche cars in our market are used from the UK (right steering) as savings are huge sometimes.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

However, there is a joy in specifying your own car and even waiting for it and I would add keeping it for many years like a companion. 

Of course, I love it, I understand it. On the other hand, I'm not that strongly attached to a certain car anymore like I've been in the past (maybe an age thing), so I'm not sure if this is worth paying a substantial premium.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

reginos:

 

I found that the 3.4 Carrera with basic spec e.g. No PASM, 19" wheels and no SC is a very good sportscar and as a fast as a 997.2 on the road. I would have only added LSD compared to the test car I drove

 trouble is, in the UK at least, you can't get LSD (PTV) unless you also spec PASM and 20" wheels.

same on the 981 ..

RC:

Right now, there are many many nice 997, incl. 997 Carrera GTS, available on the used car market in Germany. In a year or so, so will be 991 models. I would go for a slightly used 991, with some luck fully optioned for "little" money. 

Maybe I'm spoiled but after getting that C63 for that little money and being very happy with my decision, I just don't see the point of spending a fortune on a brand-new car, unless of course I would lease it.

Even my wife started thinking that way: Instead of getting a brand new Macan Diesel next year, she may opt for a slightly used Cayenne Diesel. Cayenne used car prices should drop, once the Macan shows up and people start to switch. It will happen.  

Something similar happened with me when I was doing some research on used Panameras.

I found two incredible Panamera V6 RWDs with PDK in Germany with just over 24K on the clock with just about every option ticked off except the sports exhaust system: one in mahogany metallic and the other in topaz, both with full leather black interiors, seat heating/ventilation front/rear, four-zone climate control, Burmester, reversing cameras, Entry & Drive, tow bars, sport chrono, adaptive air suspension, PDLS and full trims in yachting mahogany on the mahogany Panamera and carbon for the topaz one. Both of them could have been had from the mid-70000 EUR range! Seeing how a base Panamera V6 RWD manual starts at 77K+, these fully-kitted out ones were a steal... too bad they didn't last for long on the market.

I can see a similar trend taking place with the 991 and Cayenne/Macan... it's just a matter of time.

rulesdontapply

reginos:

It makes a lot of financial sense to buy used especially if you don't internd to keep the car for too long. However, there is a joy in specifying your own car and even waiting for it and I would add keeping it for many years like a companion. 

Most of the Porsche cars in our market are used from the UK (right steering) as savings are huge sometimes.

Now we've purchased our first used Porsche I don't understand why we haven't done it before. Alright, our 997S isn't exactly as we would have specced it from new, significantly no TPMS or electrically adjustable seats, but it's come with our preferred choice of paint colour, a 2 1/2 year Porsche warranty, four brand new tyres and brake pads so I can live with that having saved £40,000 from new price! 

Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"

Exactly my point... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I bought a 2+ year old 987.1 two years ago for a member of my family from a PC in the UK near Manchester with factory  warranty and very low mileage. In spite of spending 3 winters in the North of England the car was delivered to me as good as new in all respects including its difficult to maintain dark blue colour. The saving was enormous (note: the hefty local tax is also depreciated). However, if the car was for me I'd be fussy about missing some options and so I wouldn't be absolutely content in spite of the saving.  This doesn't mean I would discard this option when I want to change my own car. 

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"Form follows function"

RC:

Exactly my point... 

I figured out this little secret when I was 15 years old and bought my first Porsche - a 1972 914 that was seven years old and a total blast to drive.  One heck of a tough manual to learn on too!  Now you know why I love manuals.  Sadly a drunk driver destroyed that car four months later (me driving in the snow and Ice on Dec 28th, go figure)  and almost killed me in the process. 

Only 911 Porsches (6) since then - all of them used, all of them driven like I stole them and sold for just a bit less than I paid for them.  You can bet I know how and where to fix them in an efficient way after all these years.

It has been a brillian adventure driving 911s all my life and I must admit I enjoy sharing it with like minded Porsche drivers on this forum - THANKS TO ALL, and thanks for letting me be a bit abrasive (you know me - direct). 

Being born near Frankfurt in Sept of 1963 and being raised in Austria near Gmund has always made me a 911 Twin - so there will always be a 911 in my garage.  Sadly I doubt it will ever be a new one since I can buy so much more Porsche used.  Common sense and a strong Porsche addiction make used the only way to go, regardless of how many millions I have in the bank.

Looks like my next use one will be a certain GT3 4.0 with insane but vey savy upgrades...  I hope.

reginos:

I bought a 2+ year old 987.1 two years ago for a member of my family from a PC in the UK near Manchester with factory  warranty and very low mileage. In spite of spending 3 winters in the North of England the car was delivered to me as good as new in all respects including its difficult to maintain dark blue colour. The saving was enormous (note: the hefty local tax is also depreciated). However, if the car was for me I'd be fussy about missing some options and so I wouldn't be absolutely content in spite of the saving.  This doesn't mean I would discard this option when I want to change my own car. 

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"Form follows function"

There are so many used 987 and 997 available right now...you find something for every taste and preference. Even exotic colors and weird options. I bet that in at least 12-18 months, a similar situation will be available for the 991 and 981. GT3...Turbo...Cayman...Cayman Turbo...Boxster Turbo...whatever...Porsche builds more cars than ever and the used car markets will profit from that.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (at Porsche right now), BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4