Crown

I don't know how to embed the YouTube video, haha.

http://youtu.be/beutB6R0Zqg?hd=1

I still like the Zonda more than the Catfish...I mean Huyara. 

The next 760 will be built for Lewis Hamilton who ordered his with a manual transmission. 

Although they use MB engines, I wonder how Ron Dennis feels about his golden boy in a competitors product. :)

2 good minutes out of 12

In that context:

RC did you hear this ? LH ordered a manual !(couldn't resist )

BjoernB:

RC did you hear this ? LH ordered a manual !(couldn't resist )

 

Fantastic review and what a car this is...

racerx:

2 good minutes out of 12

And what exactly bothered you in the remaining 10?

Porker:

racerx:

2 good minutes out of 12

And what exactly bothered you in the remaining 10?

What a gorgeous car...

BjoernB:

RC did you hear this ? LH ordered a manual !(couldn't resist )

Because they differentiate between work and fun... 

Great cars.....here are some pictures of a Zonda R I took last August at The Quail in Carmel.

BjoernB:

RC did you hear this ? LH ordered a manual !(couldn't resist )

 

Give him some years...to get wiser. 

On a more serious note: His daily drivers are AMG models, so maybe he wanted something different for a change.
 

At least I have a C63 AMG like LH...do you? 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Adam R:
The Zonda F and R are, in my opinion, among the most beautiful cars ever created. The attention to detail, like ensuring the carbon fiber patterns match up is astonishing.

I concur, especially with the ZR.

Which altogether makes me scratch my head when I look at the Huyara.

Zondas, best looking kit cars. Maybe a tad too busy in the styling department trying to incorporate a zillion different design elements. The interior could have better finishing also.

To me, doesn't matter how much they cost, they don't make their own original engines, so strictly speaks they are not a full manufacturer like Ferrari or Porsche or even McLaren. Pagani is in the same group of tuners/kit cars makers like Saleen and to a certain extend Ruf, Alpina, etc.

I know most of you don't agree with that point :) It's just my personal opinion.

I see your point, but then again, as a small manufacturer with limited resources playing in a market where as a small manufacturer a few unsold units = bankruptcy, for cost reasons you'd want to stick close to what you know and can best execute throughout the entire design, prototype, testing, revision, and manufacturing process. For Mr. Pagani, that's car design and substructure - not engines.

Ferrari doesn't build and sell customer spec road car engines nor does Lambo to my knowledge. BMW does occasionally. Judd only does race engines. Cosworth, meh. Ford or Chevy based small or long blocks would have worked since there are hundreds of builders in the US who will build you an engine based on these designs, parameters and performance set to your spec - but I don't think Pagani really wanted the Zonda to sound like a C5 Vetter or NASCAR. :) And I'm sure Mr. Pagani would never go for a Japanese engine inside his beautiful motorcar.

I like the Zonda Cinque and tri-color more than R and F. Just gorgeous 

IMO, best hyper car. 

ONUR

11 E92 M3 CP 

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Whoopsy:

Zondas, best looking kit cars. Maybe a tad too busy in the styling department trying to incorporate a zillion different design elements. The interior could have better finishing also.

To me, doesn't matter how much they cost, they don't make their own original engines, so strictly speaks they are not a full manufacturer like Ferrari or Porsche or even McLaren. Pagani is in the same group of tuners/kit cars makers like Saleen and to a certain extend Ruf, Alpina, etc.

I know most of you don't agree with that point :) It's just my personal opinion.

I agree even more, some of there exteriors are way over done and some interiors look like they were specced by Liberace. Let's face it the only reason they are so well liked is the engine sound! The howl @7:50 and the backfires, that's it. And like you said that sound is coming from Mercedes. It's a similar difference between my custom exhaust on my 928 and a showroom porsche. Sometimes I wonder why certain manufacturers don't get it. Ferrari gets it. Sound is the clincher.

pride355:

I like the Zonda Cinque and tri-color more than R and F. Just gorgeous 

IMO, best hyper car. 

+1 ! The Cinque is just amazing. 

racerx:

Let's face it the only reason they are so well liked is the engine sound! The howl @7:50 and the backfires, that's it.

So,

you are saying that people that were clever enough to earn that money were stupid enough to buy the car for the engine sound alone? 

Pagani is very individual in their customer relationship, design and craftsmanship. One cannot compare it to the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini for their market position alone. If people dislike the engine supplier, so be it. At least in the 760 the engine has reached a level of performance that should be hard to fault. I would be curious if the heavy drivetrain impairs the handling of the car. That would be a shame of course.

The continuous carbon weave over the entire car shows the attention to detail, something that most other manufacturers would sacrifice. 

The expressive design is very individual, the first cars have not had the same surface quality of major competitors but they have improved significantly. Even if Pagani speaks about the parallel path of arts and science centuries ago it shows that he is an engineer and not a trained designer since his solutions do not follow the common paths established in current car design.

very well said - Paganis are a piece of art and cannot be compared to any other car - the level of attention is phenomenal - and in my opinion far away from being a kit car. I also like the explanation of Harry with their different philosophies - whereas the "Huayra" is the Turbo the 760 is the GT3RS.... 

Ferdie:

racerx:

Let's face it the only reason they are so well liked is the engine sound! The howl @7:50 and the backfires, that's it.

So,

you are saying that people that were clever enough to earn that money were stupid enough to buy the car for the engine sound alone? 

Pagani is very individual in their customer relationship, design and craftsmanship. One cannot compare it to the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini for their market position alone. If people dislike the engine supplier, so be it. At least in the 760 the engine has reached a level of performance that should be hard to fault. I would be curious if the heavy drivetrain impairs the handling of the car. That would be a shame of course.

The continuous carbon weave over the entire car shows the attention to detail, something that most other manufacturers would sacrifice. 

The expressive design is very individual, the first cars have not had the same surface quality of major competitors but they have improved significantly. Even if Pagani speaks about the parallel path of arts and science centuries ago it shows that he is an engineer and not a trained designer since his solutions do not follow the common paths established in current car design.

Not really. Ferrari has the Enzo and the Enzo replacement in that sector and rest assured that the latter is going to be a lot quicker and more technologically advanced and special than anything Pagani has to offer. I even like the Aventador more than the new catfish (Huayura?)!

Pagani is a very low volume manufacturer, mass production of panels would not be cost effective for them, so they are already hand made anyway, it doesn't take much extra time to align the weave patterns. But it's a very nice finishing touch.

For the engines, there are a few engineering firms that could fill the need, Lotus Engineering comes to mind and I think it could be a good fit. A Pagani is not a heavy car, but that AMG V12 is super heavy. Maybe a much lighter Lotus designed engine, whatever the configuration V8, V10, V12, could be the ticket to give the car that final finish to be ranked a true supercar. Zonda weights what, 2700lb? Not inconceivable that a lightweight engine could shave 150-200lbs off that.

McLaren F1 did the custom contract engine with BMW M, and it's a very very low volume, just over 100 cars. That volume is very doable for Pagani if they spread the engine on more than a generation of cars.

But to me there is one more criteria, that's heritage, racing heritage. Pagani doesn't have it YET, it's still a young brand that I wouldn't let it slide for a while.

Mate,

I don´t think you have ever placed a cfk or gfk weave in the mold. 

I am not in the appropriate income bracket so far to be considered a frequent customer by Pagani but the car is stunning. As I said above, it is stunning for different reasons than their competitors. To me, it allures with qualities that, just as Aston Martins, are not primarily related to performance.

Of course! The only knowledge I have on laying carbon fiber is watch I see on TV shows

But seeing how they lay the weaves by hand one layer at a time, it really isn't too much extra work to check the weave and align them in an arrow formation.

Having said all that, I have to admit my son is a huge Zonda fan, he even has a big poster up on his wall.

Whoopsy:

Pagani is a very low volume manufacturer, mass production of panels would not be cost effective for them, so they are already hand made anyway, it doesn't take much extra time to align the weave patterns. But it's a very nice finishing touch.

For the engines, there are a few engineering firms that could fill the need, Lotus Engineering comes to mind and I think it could be a good fit. A Pagani is not a heavy car, but that AMG V12 is super heavy. Maybe a much lighter Lotus designed engine, whatever the configuration V8, V10, V12, could be the ticket to give the car that final finish to be ranked a true supercar. Zonda weights what, 2700lb? Not inconceivable that a lightweight engine could shave 150-200lbs off that.

McLaren F1 did the custom contract engine with BMW M, and it's a very very low volume, just over 100 cars. That volume is very doable for Pagani if they spread the engine on more than a generation of cars.

But to me there is one more criteria, that's heritage, racing heritage. Pagani doesn't have it YET, it's still a young brand that I wouldn't let it slide for a while.

Do you happen to know the weight of the Zonda's AMG V12? My guess is that it's comparable to the V12s from Ferrari and Lamborghini. I HIGHLY doubt an engine with similar power and torque could be produced to weigh 150-200 lbs less. And why would someone choose a Lotus engineering engine over AMG? AMG happens to make some exceptional motors. People are talking about Pagani cars like they are just for show. Remember, the Zonda F laps the 'ring in 7:27, imagine what the 760RS can do.

If my memory serves me right, the AMG V12 is the oldest among AMG's engines, I think it's a combination iron and aluminum block, hasn't switched to the new process, unlike the all aluminum V8s. Then there is the beefier blocks, have you see how BIG an AMG engine block is? Have a look at the 6.2 V8 and compare that with say the V8 from 430/458. The Ferrari engines, fully dressed looks quite a bit slimmer even account for the smaller engine size, there is no spare metal in the whole block.

Then there is the turbo chargers and intercoolers and all their associated plumbing and fixtures. These are all absent from Ferrari and Lamborghini V12s. More added weight.

Pagani are super light weight compared with other cars so they do not need as much low end torque as the Mercedes AMGs, the added torque is just going to overload the rear wheels and kills acceleration time from stop or low speed.

I loved AMG engines, I missed the 55K in my CLS55 the most to be honest. But I mentioned Lotus simply because they do outside contract work, unlike AMG who only deals inhouse with Mercedes. Porsche Engineering could be another choice.

So a clean sheet design along the Ferrari architecture, NA engine that makes power up top with minimal torque down low would be a great match for Pagani. It's doesn't have to be a V12, could be a V10 or a V8. But you get my drift.

Yes Zonda is super fast around the ring, but can it last? A GT-R is fast around the ring too, but only for a lap or 2, it doesn't have the endurance to run the same lap time lap after lap. A Porsche GT3RS or a Ferrari Scuderia maybe a bit slower on a single lap, but they are race proven and can pretty much lap at the same pace for 24hrs straight without any problem. That's racing heritage and pedigree, something Pagani is still lacking.

Whoopsy:

If my memory serves me right, the AMG V12 is the oldest among AMG's engines, I think it's a combination iron and aluminum block, hasn't switched to the new process, unlike the all aluminum V8s. Then there is the beefier blocks, have you see how BIG an AMG engine block is? Have a look at the 6.2 V8 and compare that with say the V8 from 430/458. The Ferrari engines, fully dressed looks quite a bit slimmer even account for the smaller engine size, there is no spare metal in the whole block.

Then there is the turbo chargers and intercoolers and all their associated plumbing and fixtures. These are all absent from Ferrari and Lamborghini V12s. More added weight.

Pagani are super light weight compared with other cars so they do not need as much low end torque as the Mercedes AMGs, the added torque is just going to overload the rear wheels and kills acceleration time from stop or low speed.

I loved AMG engines, I missed the 55K in my CLS55 the most to be honest. But I mentioned Lotus simply because they do outside contract work, unlike AMG who only deals inhouse with Mercedes. Porsche Engineering could be another choice.

So a clean sheet design along the Ferrari architecture, NA engine that makes power up top with minimal torque down low would be a great match for Pagani. It's doesn't have to be a V12, could be a V10 or a V8. But you get my drift.

Yes Zonda is super fast around the ring, but can it last? A GT-R is fast around the ring too, but only for a lap or 2, it doesn't have the endurance to run the same lap time lap after lap. A Porsche GT3RS or a Ferrari Scuderia maybe a bit slower on a single lap, but they are race proven and can pretty much lap at the same pace for 24hrs straight without any problem. That's racing heritage and pedigree, something Pagani is still lacking.

 

I think you're basing a lot of your opinion on conjecture. What "looks" heavy does not have to be. Yes an combo iron aluminum block is heavier than an all aluminum one, but I doubt it's significant, definitely not 100 lbs, probably less than a 40lb difference. The fact that the car is so much lighter than its competitors is a strong indication that the engine is not unduly burdensome, but again this is conjecture. FYI the Zonda has no turbos or intercoolers, just a shit ton of power and torque. The Huayra uses turbos, but the car remains a lightweight by comparison.

Various reviews of the Zonda have praised the car for its drivability and linearity of power and performance. I don't think we should bash (or unduly praise) Pagani cars based on our assumptions. Based on the words of people who have driven the cars, they are absolute masterpieces. 

REALZEUS:

Ferdie:

racerx:

Let's face it the only reason they are so well liked is the engine sound! The howl @7:50 and the backfires, that's it.

So,

you are saying that people that were clever enough to earn that money were stupid enough to buy the car for the engine sound alone? 

blah-blah-blah

 

Not really. Ferrari has the Enzo and the Enzo replacement in that sector and rest assured that the latter is going to be a lot quicker and more technologically advanced and special than anything Pagani has to offer. I even like the Aventador more than the new catfish (Huayura?)!

A lot of smart people have little wealth and a lot of not so smart people have wealth. But I don't think you can draw any conclusions about someone based on their ability to buy a car. I would definitely not call anyone stupid who would want to hear that sound whenever it pleased them. In fact I have always said that Sound was one of the most important criteria for car choice almost equal to looks. Ferrari have proven that model over decades.

Without this engine, sound and performance, Pagani wouid occupy the same category as many other similar companies such as spyker, koenigsegg, and a half dozen more. Their quality as nice as it is does not equal the likes of the AM One-77 or the Mclaren F1. see a little comparo here -- http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20153701/Re_Aston_Martin_one77/page1.html#p20153701

Some interesting comments here about the Zonda.  I wonder how many people here have actually driven one (I know I haven't).  It's worth a reminder that evo voted the Zonda F no.1 in its Oct 2009 review of the Top 100 Driver's Cars of the past 50 years.  That's high praise coming from a very credible source, so I guess it's gotta be more than just a pretty face with a big AMG engine.