Crown

Whoopsy:

http://grrc.goodwood.com/road/news/grr-read-test-verdict-evo-october-2014

 

I am guessing the fat lady has sung?

Just read the article, the Porsche wins! And I really rate evo journalists. This is amazing. That it is the best all rounder I was expecting, that it's just as fun on the track on the track I'm amazed. That it's better on the road as in, more exploitable, brilliant. 

What a car!

Futch:

Whoopsy:

http://grrc.goodwood.com/road/news/grr-read-test-verdict-evo-october-2014

 

I am guessing the fat lady has sung?

Just read the article, the Porsche wins! And I really rate evo journalists. This is amazing. That it is the best all rounder I was expecting, that it's just as fun on the track on the track I'm amazed. That it's better on the road as in, more exploitable, brilliant. 

What a car!

Futch, the 918 deserves an owner/driver/collector like you! You should add one to your garage asap.

The LaF is a different kind of thoroughbred and therefore no overlapping.

--

"Form follows function"

Joost:
Well, to be honest, I think the Lala and the 918 are actually two of a kind, brilliant road cars, but maybe too heavy to be real track cars, whereas the P1 seems to be more track-oriented from what I read from Futch's and other reviews... or am I really far off now?

The heavy 918 being faster than Gumpert Apollo on both NBR and Hockenheim, has a different opinion I guess?

--

"Form follows function"

Joost:
Well, to be honest, I think the Lala and the 918 are actually two of a kind, brilliant road cars, but maybe too heavy to be real track cars, whereas the P1 seems to be more track-oriented from what I read from Futch's and other reviews... or am I really far off now?

You are quite far off. The P1 is not as light as McLaren claimed. At best it's only 150kg lighter than a 918 could be less. It's also not as powerful as McLaren claimed. It pretty much relies on the gas motor alone, the e-motor only does torque fill duties and never really contribute all of it's torque output, it's only there as a place holder until the big turbos fully spooled up, unlike in the 918 where 100% of the electric torque is there for the whole rev range, that's a big torque deficit to the P1. One reason McLaren never released their engine output graph.

Primary reason why I canceled the P1 and focus on the 918, the P1 is a a fantastic car by itself but when compared with the competition it is kind of a hack job.

I thought the article gave a split decision. For track they rated the P! marginally better but on the road the 918. Overall they gave it to the 918 given its ease for driving performance.

Futch, I have to ask. If you only had one last drive of all the cars you own which would it be?

Whoopsy:

Joost:
Well, to be honest, I think the Lala and the 918 are actually two of a kind, brilliant road cars, but maybe too heavy to be real track cars, whereas the P1 seems to be more track-oriented from what I read from Futch's and other reviews... or am I really far off now?

 

You are quite far off. The P1 is not as light as McLaren claimed. At best it's only 150kg lighter than a 918 could be less. It's also not as powerful as McLaren claimed. It pretty much relies on the gas motor alone, the e-motor only does torque fill duties and never really contribute all of it's torque output, it's only there as a place holder until the big turbos fully spooled up, unlike in the 918 where 100% of the electric torque is there for the whole rev range, that's a big torque deficit to the P1. One reason McLaren never released their engine output graph.

Primary reason why I canceled the P1 and focus on the 918, the P1 is a a fantastic car by itself but when compared with the competition it is kind of a hack job.

I think Lala and the P1 are real world around 1500kgs. That's still a lot lighter than the 918 which is around 1680 I think. 

The weissach pack for me is not really worth it because you save 35 kgs I think but we would all add back aircon and nav radio and front lifter wouldn't we? Especially since the car is so useable. So you really save 20 kgs I'd say, ie the wheels and some carbon bits. I'd choose the normal version. I like it more and more especially since this is a car you would really drive. But to me, it's still highly priced for a Porsche and I would really like to see where prices are going in a couple of years. 

I bought my GT second hand, 6000km in 2009 but with a huge discount and now it's going up, slowly but surely. 

Track performance wise, I think the 918 is as fast if not faster than the other two cars but the real problem is that it would only be over a limited number of laps because of the extra weights, the tyres and brakes would give up quickly. 

Ultimately it's the most road biased of the three, Porsche has proven it can be ultra quick over a hot lap but it remains a road car. That's my opinion. 

Nick! Super hard question and the answer changes everyday!!!

Today, I think the carrera GT on supersport or cup tyres, with the roof off and an empty furka pass. Or grosscklockner pass.

My top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

Futch:

 

My top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

 

Not the F40 

MKSGR:

Futch:

 

My top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

 

Not the F40 

I don't know the F40 as well as the others to be honest. Its enormous turbo lag is part of its charm but also an issue on greasy and wet roads and the brakes are very 80s. Its a legend but I'd prefer the more modern cars quoted above for an ultimate drive. 

Futch:

MKSGR:

Futch:

 

My top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

 

Not the F40 

I don't know the F40 as well as the others to be honest. Its enormous turbo lag is part of its charm but also an issue on greasy and wet roads and the brakes are very 80s. Its a legend but I'd prefer the more modern cars quoted above for an ultimate drive. 

 

I see... But remember: you have nothing to lose in this ultimate drive  

MKSGR:

I see... But remember: you have nothing to lose in this ultimate drive  

Well, yes, but you want it to last as long as possible, since it is the ultimate drive. No one wants to crash out in turn 1.

Futch:

 

My top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

 

The F1? That would have been my answer if I am only allowed to keep one.

Futch:

Track performance wise, I think the 918 is as fast if not faster than the other two cars but the real problem is that it would only be over a limited number of laps because of the extra weights, the tyres and brakes would give up quickly. 

 

 

Tires would be the only concern. Remember almost half of the braking on the 918 is generated by the regen motor, so in reality the brake rotors itself is being used about half the time. A CGT would probably used up its brakes more in the same time frame.

P1 might also have tires problem as the extra downforce ultimately gets transmitted to the tires. While the Laf and the P1 weights less than the 918, they will be going just as fast if not faster on straights and will need to use 100% of their brakes while 918 only be loading them up 1/2 as much. Well maybe not the Laf as it also has regen braking on the rear axle so it will use less actual brake potential than the P1.

Franciose, if I had the last dollar to bet on regarding your answer I would have placed it on the CGT. You have always showed a passion for the car. It makes me happy because I have had the opportunity to drive the CGT many times. But for my mediocre driving skills, I am sure I would have appreciated the car even more. 

Nick, if you haven't driven a CGT you owe it to yourself to drive one. You might get hooked.

Futch:

 top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

 

ONUR

THE BEST CAR EVER 

11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

Whoopsy:

Futch:

Track performance wise, I think the 918 is as fast if not faster than the other two cars but the real problem is that it would only be over a limited number of laps because of the extra weights, the tyres and brakes would give up quickly. 

 

 

 

Tires would be the only concern. Remember almost half of the braking on the 918 is generated by the regen motor, so in reality the brake rotors itself is being used about half the time. A CGT would probably used up its brakes more in the same time frame.

P1 might also have tires problem as the extra downforce ultimately gets transmitted to the tires. While the Laf and the P1 weights less than the 918, they will be going just as fast if not faster on straights and will need to use 100% of their brakes while 918 only be loading them up 1/2 as much. Well maybe not the Laf as it also has regen braking on the rear axle so it will use less actual brake potential than the P1.

Interesting comment on regen braking. So it's actually engine braking correct?

downforce is good, the more downforce you have the less you use your tyres. Brakes no because you'll be arriving faster into corners. 

The P1 in track mode should theoretically be the best on a circuit thanks to its GT3 like downforce. 

with Lala braking is adequate, after only 6 laps in a row the VDA on the left screen told me slow down. Ok silverstone has got some huge braking several times a lap but still that's only about 15 minutes of continuous driving. 

Whoopsy:

Futch:

 

My top three CGT, Lala, 4.0 and LFA. 

Shit that's four!

 

 

The F1? That would have been my answer if I am only allowed to keep one.

The F1 is wonderful to own but not for a final drive kind for car. 

The gearbox need warming like a race car, the brakes needs warming like a race car and the turning circle is ridiculous like a race car. 

Actually it is a race car. 

Futch:

 

Interesting comment on regen braking. So it's actually engine braking correct?

downforce is good, the more downforce you have the less you use your tyres. Brakes no because you'll be arriving faster into corners. 

The P1 in track mode should theoretically be the best on a circuit thanks to its GT3 like downforce. 

with Lala braking is adequate, after only 6 laps in a row the VDA on the left screen told me slow down. Ok silverstone has got some huge braking several times a lap but still that's only about 15 minutes of continuous driving. 

Not exactly, the engine doesn't really 'brake' the car via engine compression, it's the electric motors, can't really think of a good description, but electromagnetic braking come close. The e-motors acts like generators while braking, so the electric coils inside provide the braking force via the resistance against the turning of the armature driven by the axles, in turn generate electricity to recharge the batteries. The e-motor in the LaF works the same way, but only driven by the rear axle for obvious reason. Generally this is called regen braking. Porsche tuned the system to provide up to 0.5g of braking force using the regen function, the actually disc brakes kicks in after the initial 0.5g up to I think the max of 1.3g or whatever the max g, Walliser talked about it but it slipped my mind atm. It's this that takes the longest to tune for the 'feel'. Porsche solved that problem by using a reservoir to store the initial rush of brake fluid during the regen braking part, then bleed them back into the system to activate the physical brakes.  Regen braking is capable to provide more than 0.5g, but the more g generated the more amperage generated and hence the need for thicker and heavier wires. 0.5g is also at the top end of brake force during street driving, Porsche has maximized the regen function for the electric range on the road.

In your LaF, the front brake is conventional, it's the rear brakes that gets the help from the electromagnetic force. One way Ferrari was able to preserve the so called brake feel. Ferrari didn't disclose their electromagnetic braking force, I had to imagine they will be less than the 0.5g Porsche is using, so the LaF should be using more of the physical brakes. Did the VDA says your front brakes are too hot or all 4 brakes?

Electromagnetic braking is quite difference than physical brakes as you can't really physically locked up the axles like conventional brake discs.

In the P1 the rear wheels are decoupled in braking via the transmission clutch and the engine drives the e-motor to recharge, so the rear wheels are actually free wheeling. The P1 should also benefit from the air brake's help. Someone describe when lifting off on a high downforce car, it's like throwing an anchor and the car really slow quite dramatically just from the aero drag, is that what you get on your race cars?

Anyway, 3 different companies making 3 different hybrids and 3 different ways to brake. 

Futch:

 

The F1 is wonderful to own but not for a final drive kind for car. 

The gearbox need warming like a race car, the brakes needs warming like a race car and the turning circle is ridiculous like a race car. 

Actually it is a race car. 

 

If I have one, I would even be buried in one. That's THE MOTHER OF ALL final drives. Haha.

nberry:

Nick, if you haven't driven a CGT you owe it to yourself to drive one. You might get hooked.

I have had I think 3 occasions to buy one, I keep getting side tracked, 1st was was when they were selling in the low 300s, I spent the money on the deposit for the 918 instead. 2nd time was before I went to Stuttgart, found one but after talking to some people at Weissach, they say don't as the 918 is better in all ways. 3rd was just before I bought the Speciale, was ready to wire money in the afternoon but I made the mistake of stopping by Ferrari in the morning.

I drove one quite a few years ago, it was actually a Gemballa one, I keep fighting the auto-throttle, can't get used to it and never quite trust it, needless to say it was a losing battle. I still kind of wanted to buy one, but it seems now I want a 959 more than a CGT if I were to buy another Porsche halo car.

Whoopsy:

Futch:

 

Interesting comment on regen braking. So it's actually engine braking correct?

downforce is good, the more downforce you have the less you use your tyres. Brakes no because you'll be arriving faster into corners. 

The P1 in track mode should theoretically be the best on a circuit thanks to its GT3 like downforce. 

with Lala braking is adequate, after only 6 laps in a row the VDA on the left screen told me slow down. Ok silverstone has got some huge braking several times a lap but still that's only about 15 minutes of continuous driving. 

 

Not exactly, the engine doesn't really 'brake' the car via engine compression, it's the electric motors, can't really think of a good description, but electromagnetic braking come close. The e-motors acts like generators while braking, so the electric coils inside provide the braking force via the resistance against the turning of the armature driven by the axles, in turn generate electricity to recharge the batteries. The e-motor in the LaF works the same way, but only driven by the rear axle for obvious reason. Generally this is called regen braking. Porsche tuned the system to provide up to 0.5g of braking force using the regen function, the actually disc brakes kicks in after the initial 0.5g up to I think the max of 1.3g or whatever the max g, Walliser talked about it but it slipped my mind atm. It's this that takes the longest to tune for the 'feel'. Porsche solved that problem by using a reservoir to store the initial rush of brake fluid during the regen braking part, then bleed them back into the system to activate the physical brakes.  Regen braking is capable to provide more than 0.5g, but the more g generated the more amperage generated and hence the need for thicker and heavier wires. 0.5g is also at the top end of brake force during street driving, Porsche has maximized the regen function for the electric range on the road.

In your LaF, the front brake is conventional, it's the rear brakes that gets the help from the electromagnetic force. One way Ferrari was able to preserve the so called brake feel. Ferrari didn't disclose their electromagnetic braking force, I had to imagine they will be less than the 0.5g Porsche is using, so the LaF should be using more of the physical brakes. Did the VDA says your front brakes are too hot or all 4 brakes?

Electromagnetic braking is quite difference than physical brakes as you can't really physically locked up the axles like conventional brake discs.

In the P1 the rear wheels are decoupled in braking via the transmission clutch and the engine drives the e-motor to recharge, so the rear wheels are actually free wheeling. The P1 should also benefit from the air brake's help. Someone describe when lifting off on a high downforce car, it's like throwing an anchor and the car really slow quite dramatically just from the aero drag, is that what you get on your race cars?

Anyway, 3 different companies making 3 different hybrids and 3 different ways to brake. 

Fascinating stuff, really,

on Lala the VDA only showed front brakes overheating. Bear in mind I was literally jumping on them at the end of hangar straight and coming into maggots. Car is very stable on braking because it uses a small wing that pops up to stabilise the rear. It's awesome and it works. The downforce for a road car is also noticeable and pretty impressive, notably through abbey and farm complex, there the car is very very impressive. 

Those new age braking systems are amazing. Really interesting stuff. 

for racing cars yes that is correct for certain cars, namely the 2012 RSR generates a lot of aero and you can feel it when you lift off the throttle, although I wouldn't describe it as dropping an anchor but you slow down for sure. The sweet spot is high downforce and low drag and the 458 GTE is very good at that. 

Whoopsy:

nberry:

Nick, if you haven't driven a CGT you owe it to yourself to drive one. You might get hooked.

 

I have had I think 3 occasions to buy one, I keep getting side tracked, 1st was was when they were selling in the low 300s, I spent the money on the deposit for the 918 instead. 2nd time was before I went to Stuttgart, found one but after talking to some people at Weissach, they say don't as the 918 is better in all ways. 3rd was just before I bought the Speciale, was ready to wire money in the afternoon but I made the mistake of stopping by Ferrari in the morning.

I drove one quite a few years ago, it was actually a Gemballa one, I keep fighting the auto-throttle, can't get used to it and never quite trust it, needless to say it was a losing battle. I still kind of wanted to buy one, but it seems now I want a 959 more than a CGT if I were to buy another Porsche halo car.

The CGT is the father of the 918 and it truly is very engaging to drive. I just read an interview of rohrl where is says that the first ever 918 mule was a CGT with 300kgs of extra weight and special tyres, that validated the tub and the tyres.  Just shows what a fabulous chassis the GT was. The noise of the V10 alone is music! Get one, it is epic and complements the 918. Proper Racing pedigree and first and last V10 Porsche ever. 

I never understood the whole thing about the clutch, within 100 km it's a forgotten issue. Yes it's a pain in traffic jam but once you're going it's the best manual box ever, it's so fast!

watch Marc basseng lap the GT at nurburgring on YouTube and you will see what I mean about speed of shifts. 

The car clocked 7'22 on michelin supersport. I'm sure it can go down to 7'15 on cup 2. Not bad for a 10 years old car. 

Whoopsy:

nberry:

Nick, if you haven't driven a CGT you owe it to yourself to drive one. You might get hooked.

 

I have had I think 3 occasions to buy one, I keep getting side tracked, 1st was was when they were selling in the low 300s, I spent the money on the deposit for the 918 instead. 2nd time was before I went to Stuttgart, found one but after talking to some people at Weissach, they say don't as the 918 is better in all ways. 3rd was just before I bought the Speciale, was ready to wire money in the afternoon but I made the mistake of stopping by Ferrari in the morning.

I drove one quite a few years ago, it was actually a Gemballa one, I keep fighting the auto-throttle, can't get used to it and never quite trust it, needless to say it was a losing battle. I still kind of wanted to buy one, but it seems now I want a 959 more than a CGT if I were to buy another Porsche halo car.

I love the 959. But  its tech is completely dated. 

Actually the 918 is half CGT, good and half 959, in the sense that it is so complicated technologically that in 10 to 20 years time, no on will bother or know how to look after them. Today it is remarkably difficult to repair let alone to maintain a 959. When it came out, it was ultra sophisticated and today it is so dated. Its adjustable suspension are a nightmare, it uses special magnesium wheels that you can't find anymore and porsche more often than not doesn't have OEM spares. I know because I bought a comfort car and it costs me dearly to refurbish it and it was a bit of a nightmare.

I'm selling it without even having driven it because I ended finding a sport version which is the one to collect, lighter and simpler and a lot rarer. 

Get a 959, no doubt. Plus it has racing pedigree, and it is going up in value big time! But buy wisely. 

My point is of all three hypercars, the 918 is the most fascinating but also the most complex and the one that relies the most on battery tech. What if in ten years battery has moved on so much that it renders the 918 obsolete?

i desire one really badly, but I really want to see first which way they are heading in terms of value and reliability. 

I have a feeling that in 5 years, all three of these cars will have been equaled by base models in most realistic usage.

Tech moves fast and this is the beginning of what will trickle down to the normal cars in the next generation. All of that extra power is really just pushing the top end. With even a modest amount of low-end additional instant torque derived from a hybrid set-up, we'll probably be seeing similar performance in the vast majority of speeds.

noone1:

I have a feeling that in 5 years, all three of these cars will have been equaled by base models in most realistic usage.

Tech moves fast and this is the beginning of what will trickle down to the normal cars in the next generation. All of that extra power is really just pushing the top end. With even a modest amount of low-end additional instant torque derived from a hybrid set-up, we'll probably be seeing similar performance in the vast majority of speeds.

I agree. In the Ferrari the ow end torque is just as impressive as the top end power. 

I hope they will trickle down the 918 interior, it is awesome. 

Yellow looks just right on 918

At this angle and light it looks like gun-silver...

Click for full size

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Futch:

 

on Lala the VDA only showed front brakes overheating. Bear in mind I was literally jumping on them at the end of hangar straight and coming into maggots. Car is very stable on braking because it uses a small wing that pops up to stabilise the rear. It's awesome and it works. The downforce for a road car is also noticeable and pretty impressive, notably through abbey and farm complex, there the car is very very impressive. 

Those new age braking systems are amazing. Really interesting stuff. 

for racing cars yes that is correct for certain cars, namely the 2012 RSR generates a lot of aero and you can feel it when you lift off the throttle, although I wouldn't describe it as dropping an anchor but you slow down for sure. The sweet spot is high downforce and low drag and the 458 GTE is very good at that. 

Figures it's gonna be the front rotors only, but only after 6 laps? Might want to give Ferrari a heads up. The rear doesn't do as much braking duty due to physics, plus with the help of regen braking the actual brakes probably being used very little even with the air brake to move the cg back a bit.

I don't believe you have driven the finished 918, you really should give it a try. Clear your mind about what people have written about it and the pre-conceived idea about the car just from reading the specs. You could be pleasantly surprised.

It will be quite different than the CGT for sure, Weissach engineers said as much.

Futch:

 

I love the 959. But  its tech is completely dated. 

Actually the 918 is half CGT, good and half 959, in the sense that it is so complicated technologically that in 10 to 20 years time, no on will bother or know how to look after them. Today it is remarkably difficult to repair let alone to maintain a 959. When it came out, it was ultra sophisticated and today it is so dated. Its adjustable suspension are a nightmare, it uses special magnesium wheels that you can't find anymore and porsche more often than not doesn't have OEM spares. I know because I bought a comfort car and it costs me dearly to refurbish it and it was a bit of a nightmare.

I'm selling it without even having driven it because I ended finding a sport version which is the one to collect, lighter and simpler and a lot rarer. 

Get a 959, no doubt. Plus it has racing pedigree, and it is going up in value big time! But buy wisely. 

My point is of all three hypercars, the 918 is the most fascinating but also the most complex and the one that relies the most on battery tech. What if in ten years battery has moved on so much that it renders the 918 obsolete?

i desire one really badly, but I really want to see first which way they are heading in terms of value and reliability. 

 

It's the tech that fascinate me, I am a super geek at heart. To me the 959 is a showcase milestone in Porsche history, it's tech has gone into a lot of the road cars that comes after, I see the 918 the same way. The CGT is a completely different animal, it's not a tech heavy showcase car but a properly engineered street car that was conceived as a race car initially. 

I have had casual inquiries about the 959, they are indeed at a much higher prices than I thought they would be. Canepa in the US modified a few to make it more livable, i.e. the suspension and wheels. But they also tuned up the engine too and I didn't really want that.