Crown

Thanks for the pics. I thought you want something less flashy ? 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the Brombacher exhaust for the Panamera Turbo isn't street legal in Germany but it is possible, with minor mods, to get a similar but slightly less loud sound from the original sport exhaust of the PTS. You just need to make sure that the flaps stay open all the time.  This has only a minimal influence on torque in the lower rev range, power should be the same. However, I heard the PTS exhaust live a while ago and I'm not sure it needs to be any louder. The V8 blob blob is pretty noticeable and I can't say the exhaust is quiet. Not at all. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

 A 5 series BMW is unremarkable by itself, so the exterior color isn't that important. A 5 series has the stealth mode as a standard.

But I am not sure if I want for the PTS to give up torque for the benefit of another (better) sound. It would be better if the flaps could be influenced manually, so the driver can decide at his own preferences

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Conny997:

Here are some pics from the BMW M5. What do you guys think about the colour "Montecarlo Blue" for the M5?
Too flashy? Sporty enough?

I would personally order the M5 in Montecarlo Blue, remove the M badges and it will look amazing. 

If they ever add AWD it could be my next car. 

2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2

The demand for AWD for the M5 is pretty high as far as I heard, so I wouldn't exclude the possibility that BMW will make it happen. I just think they rushed the introduction of the M5 because the "old" M5 was badly outdated and they needed another top sedan again before Porsche, Audi and Jaguar starts to eat up M GmbH's customer base. Just a guess though but it would make sense.

As to the color: The blue is surely very flashy and I don't think that even ordinary people won't recognize a "special" car. Of course a 5 series stays a 5 series and there are tons of these over here in Bavaria, so there is indeed a stealth factor involved.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Do we need more evidence of the advantage of 4WD? Just considering the first test:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/bmw-m5-vs-nissan-gtr/

 911 Carrera 3.2 - Cayenne Diesel

Mikla:

Do we need more evidence of the advantage of 4WD? Just considering the first test:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/bmw-m5-vs-nissan-gtr/

 Oh dear, owned by the GTR....

throt

"I didn't do it"

OK, comparing a sportscar to a sedan is kind of lame in my opinion but in this case, it is actually indeed a good example why AWD can be an advantage. I'm pretty sure that if the M5 would be available with AWD, this car would hit 100 kph in under 4 seconds. I'm also pretty sure that for the price difference vs. the Panamera Turbo S, almost 50k EUR with similar options, I would have gone for the M5 instead.

I also don't understand why somebody would prefer the M5 over the GT-R for example without having a family. No offense meant but the M5 just doesn't make sense for somebody without a family. I would choose the GT-R without a second thought...if it wouldn't have that hideous fixed rear wing. Nissan doesn't get it: The look of a car is important too and I doubt that serious sports cars lovers will love that Playstation look. I don't. The price tag however is amazing, I would get a fully optioned brand new GT-R for 90k EUR. Very tempting but I just can't get used to that hideous rear wing.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Mikla:

Do we need more evidence of the advantage of 4WD? Just considering the first test:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/bmw-m5-vs-nissan-gtr/

Not very helpful this test. They compared a sportscar with sedan. Don't understand the sense in doing this besides its only kinda car promotion for Nissan. The M5 is the competitor of the AMG E 63 and the Panamera Turbo. The Nissan GT-R is the direct competitor to the Porsche 911 Turbo S. Would you ever compare a 911 Turbo S with the M5 or E63 AMG? 
Both sedans would stand with no chance in spotry categories as tested from Autocar. And if I would have to decide between an Nissan GT- and the 911 guess which car I had chosen. 

He drives an M5 

Sebastien Loeb in is M5 (F10)

Mikla:

Do we need more evidence of the advantage of 4WD? Just considering the first test:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/bmw-m5-vs-nissan-gtr/

This had nothing to do with 4WD. A RWD 458 is quicker than a GTR. All this test showed is that the GTR is a supercar, whereas the M5 a fast saloon.

The 458 is quicker because it is much lighter than the GT-R. The 458 would be faster (acceleration) with AWD, despite the slightly higher weight but thats a different story.

The weight of the GT-R and the new M5 is quite comparable, even if the M5 is slightly heavier and the GT-R has slightly less power (on paper).

I don't understand why people are so skeptical regarding AWD, it is amazing, especially if your name isn't Walter Röhrl. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I (and the rest of the world - see all the dragsters) beg to differ. AWD gives an initial advantage off the line but above say, 60 mph, it is a diasadvantage as it saps power! Moroever, the weight penatly is great! So, good for 0-60, but bad for 0-160 mph and through the gears acceleration!

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FERRARI RULES!!!

Dragsters and pretty much every other racing body outlaw AWD because of their inherited advantage in traction. And with the new computing power of modern cars, cornering advantage too with computerized micro management in tire traction at each corner, witness the pig aka GT-R flying around corners at unreal speed.

After traction cease to be a problem off the line, yes the extra weight will be a drag literally on acceleration, but lap time will be gain back again around corners with superior traction.

Did I mention AWD superiority in wet condition even when racing?

Conny997:

Mikla:

Do we need more evidence of the advantage of 4WD? Just considering the first test:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/bmw-m5-vs-nissan-gtr/

Not very helpful this test. They compared a sportscar with sedan. Don't understand the sense in doing this besides its only kinda car promotion for Nissan. The M5 is the competitor of the AMG E 63 and the Panamera Turbo. The Nissan GT-R is the direct competitor to the Porsche 911 Turbo S. Would you ever compare a 911 Turbo S with the M5 or E63 AMG? 
Both sedans would stand with no chance in spotry categories as tested from Autocar. And if I would have to decide between an Nissan GT- and the 911 guess which car I had chosen. 

Good point. But for straight líne acceleration, it is reasonable to compare them. Close power to weigjt ratio, traction makes a difference.

 911 Carrera 3.2 - Cayenne Diesel

Conny997:

Here are some pics from the BMW M5. What do you guys think about the colour "Montecarlo Blue" for the M5?
Too flashy? Sporty enough?

 

 

 

Are you kidding, this Montecarlo Blue is almost as sweet as the BMW Carbon Black. The above is my favorite 5er color! Stunning

REALZEUS:

I (and the rest of the world - see all the dragsters) beg to differ. AWD gives an initial advantage off the line but above say, 60 mph, it is a diasadvantage as it saps power! Moroever, the weight penatly is great! So, good for 0-60, but bad for 0-160 mph and through the gears acceleration!

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FERRARI RULES!!!

Have you never wondered why AWD is outlawed in most professional racing series ? You can tune an AWD car in a way that you get maximum traction on the straight line and under certain driving conditions but still the behavior of a 2WD car. Weight wouldn't be an issue since many professional race cars drive around with (mandatory) additional weight anyway. AWD is a huge benefit but unfortunately many drivers seem to forget that it can't defy physics. I learned it the hard way when I slipped over all four wheels out of a curb and I was lucky nothing happened. This was over 26 years ago, modern AWD cars usually don't do that anymore. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

May I remind you that AWD was tried in F1 and failed spectacularly? Those cars were punished by their RWD opponents! Even nowadays track day cars  are most of the times RWD. Case in point, the RS 911s and all the hardcore Ferraris! I rest my case!

REALZEUS:

May I remind you that AWD was tried in F1 and failed spectacularly? Those cars were punished by their RWD opponents! Even nowadays track day cars  are most of the times RWD. Case in point, the RS 911s and all the hardcore Ferraris! I rest my case!

The 911 RS models were a pretty bad example. I won't explain why, I think this is self-explanatory if you think hard. 

As to F1 cars: Are you kidding me ? The last AWD F1 AWD car was built 41 (!) years ago, I assume you realize how much technology, especially AWD technology, has advanced since ? 

Theoretically, with nowadays technology, you could build a F1 car equipped with a fully computerized AWD and traction control system which could be adapted to any track on this planet and would probably annihilate the competition because the driver would only have to steer and to accelerate, even the shifting could be done automatically. Don't underestimate automated controlling technology, compared to modern passenger planes like the Airbus A380 for example, the F1 cars are Middle Age technology.  Mostly because of certain rules and of course because I doubt that many F1 fans would love to see such a technology used in the cars.

Look at PDK and manual for example, there is nothing manual does better...with the exception of the macho feel maybe. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Your assertions regarding 4WD are unfounded and unbacked! I am just going to state that Ferrari went official by saying that 4WD is not a transmission method suited to hardcore and track driving, hence it won't be adopted on its super sports models. I will leave you at that and won't respond to anything else since you seem to disregard all evidence. 

RC:

REALZEUS:

May I remind you that AWD was tried in F1 and failed spectacularly? Those cars were punished by their RWD opponents! Even nowadays track day cars  are most of the times RWD. Case in point, the RS 911s and all the hardcore Ferraris! I rest my case!

The 911 RS models were a pretty bad example. I won't explain why, I think this is self-explanatory if you think hard. 

As to F1 cars: Are you kidding me ? The last AWD F1 AWD car was built 41 (!) years ago, I assume you realize how much technology, especially AWD technology, has advanced since ? 

Indeed. Turbocharged engines in F1 took a long time to develop properly and they have ruled until they became forbidden, so I don´t believe in any inherent drawback. I was also under the impression that RWD is mandatory in F1 racing. Someone must´ve forgotten the impact AWD had in rally WDC decades ago or DTM racing in the 90ies. Funny enough that a. it was Audi both times that introduced the system and b. almost all relevant competitors switched to the same drivetrain subsequently. 

As has been debated above, the joy of AWD is only obvious if one enjoys the superior traction. If one would want to find the limit of the car, a rearwheel-driven car will be easier approachable, especially if it is an M car. Faster? No... More entertaining? Yes...

The quickest vehicles on earth, be it F1 car in tracks, dragsters on straights or whatever are RWD. Happy New Year ppl!

Let's keep our hearts honest here. although i undeniably prefer RWD to AWD, it's already very well known thing that AWD gives you the unfair advantage on a track and that was the reason it was banned from motor racing. Not because it's inferior unfortunately.

Having said that, it may come as a surprise, that todays' fastest cars on a track are actually FWD (usually hatchbacks) which in the hands of an experienced driver become a lethal weapon and venom for much stronger cars. this has been discussed and confirmed on many racing forums and professional drivers were always coming along with such surprising disclosure. 

Ferdie:

Someone must´ve forgotten the impact AWD had in rally WDC decades ago or DTM racing in the 90ies. Funny enough that (a) it was Audi both times that introduced the system; and (b) almost all relevant competitors switched to the same drivetrain subsequently. 

As has been debated above, the joy of AWD is only obvious if one enjoys the superior traction. If one would want to find the limit of the car, a rearwheel-driven car will be easier approachable, especially if it is an M car. Faster? No... More entertaining? Yes...

VAG has certainly made significant investments in exploring the relative benefits of AWD over the years...

REALZEUS:

The quickest vehicles on earth, be it F1 car in tracks, dragsters on straights or whatever are RWD. Happy New Year ppl!

You are completely forgetting the motorsport rules mate. F1 banned AWD a lot time ago.. so have all the others.

Look how much the Audi Quattro gained back in the 70s. It was out of this world, the traction advantage of AWD that is. To think that a similar traction advantage is to be had on asphalt must be logical without any evidence. Coupled with modern technology, it'll destroy RWD forever. Think half a minute on the Nurburgring kind of advantage etc. Don't forget we all love the RWD feel here apart from some that need it for daily use for safety.. RC, a little rain doesn't count

The BMW E30 enthusiasts have a little poke-fun war with the Audi crowd....

...haha, nice pic

For me the AWD/RWD question is very clear. I see the "world" in two categories to share: 
With AWD is the best solution for powerful sports cars and sedans (and SUV of course) while RWD is a lot of fun for performance funcars like C63, SLSAMG, M3, M5, etc. These cars are just not really suitable for all weather conditions but best for the daily kick...

But over all there's no necessary discussion (imho) that AWD provides a huge traction advantage under ALL conditions. 

REALZEUS seems to forget the difference between fun and performance. You can't have always both, going sideways for example will always make you slower on most tracks, unless you are a rallye driver on a mission. 

As to the advantages AWD vs. RWD...what car did you own lately ? Just curious.

Here is a very nice M5 review from german GRIP (sorry, mates...German only):

One interesting comment from the video review: "This car goes always sideways...".

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (April 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

The next Enzo is going to asnwer your questions lads!

You sound very much like a troll. The fact that ferrari's top model uses only RWD doesn't say anything. Dragsters? what does a dragster have in common with an m5???

It is a proven fact that a modern AWD has superior traction, be it on a normal road or on a rally course, with minimal weight penalty but you keep denying it

I think we should worry more about our driving skills instead of 50 extra kilos from the AWD system.

REALZEUS:

The next Enzo is going to asnwer your questions lads!

I will meet it with my Turbo on a rain day and see which one is faster.

Agent991:

I think we should worry more about our driving skills instead of 50 extra kilos from the AWD system.