Crown

Hey All,

First of all my very best wishes to everybody for a super 2012, my all your automotive & other dreams come true!!

Now to my question: leaving aside brand preferences, how would you rate a BMW M5 vs a Panamera Turbo in terms of performance, price, etc? I like the Pana but there's a V2 coming soon and the BMW does have the moniker of stealth looks + monstrous performance.

Your views most appreciated 

To me, the M5 is very good value for money, but no BMW can touch Porsche in terms of brand value, recognition and engineering excellence. Everything depends on the size of your wallet. 

On the other hand, as you noted - new Pana is coming within a year (but maybe later where we are), so it could be a difficult choice if you are not completely into Porsches. Then go with the M5 and save some money (and time)...

Good luck.

Money is always a consideration nowadays, unfortunately. If it wasnt I would buy the Ferrari FF. But it is, and I'm in a similar dilemma to RC, in that I need to choose between the two in terms of being subtle & under the radar as far as not looking flashy in front of business associates in particular & society/public in general. I was seriously considering the Cayenne Turbo but then my wife prefers cars to jeeps + I already have an X5 as a daily driver.

Thanks for your post, though...you are absolutely right, to me it looks like the M5 has an edge for my specific usage & taking into account price differential

Coincidentally, some info on the FL Panamera (and its sales success) and a M5 Test

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260650/

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/260650/

"Form follows function"

Upsa:

Hey All,

First of all my very best wishes to everybody for a super 2012, my all your automotive & other dreams come true!!

Now to my question: leaving aside brand preferences, how would you rate a BMW M5 vs a Panamera Turbo in terms of performance, price, etc? I like the Pana but there's a V2 coming soon and the BMW does have the moniker of stealth looks + monstrous performance.

Your views most appreciated 

1. M5 has better performance (0-200 kph) than Panamera Turbo but not as good as Panamera Turbo S

2. A German car magazine made a track comparison between the M5 and Panamera Turbo S and the Turbo S won by a very tiny margin. Still impressive for a car which is slightly heavier than the M5

3. For daily driving, the Panamera Turbo has the advantage of AWD, especially in rain and snow but also on dry pavement. For track racing, the RWD of the M5 is actually only an advantage in the right hands (pro drivers). Amateur drivers will always be faster in the AWD Panamera Turbo

4. The price tag of a Panamera Turbo is, considering some basic options, much higher than the one of the M5. The M5 is the much better value if you don't take in consideration the AWD.

My verdict: If you want to have M5 performance in the Panamera, you need to get the Turbo S. Otherwise, the M5 is slightly faster from 0-200 kph and of course at higher speeds. Price-wise, the M5 is a real bargain and if you live in a region with almost no rain or even snow, the M5 is a pretty good choice.

I decided to go for the Panamera Turbo S because of the overall package and performance. I also live in a region with rain and at least 2-3 months per year snow. The M5 however is an excellent deal if you can live with the RWD and the slightly worse performance vs. the Turbo S. It also has a stealth look vs. the Panamera.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Upsa:

Hey All,

First of all my very best wishes to everybody for a super 2012, my all your automotive & other dreams come true!!

Now to my question: leaving aside brand preferences, how would you rate a BMW M5 vs a Panamera Turbo in terms of performance, price, etc? I like the Pana but there's a V2 coming soon and the BMW does have the moniker of stealth looks + monstrous performance.

Your views most appreciated 

Very interesting discussion here since I have to decide myself at the moment also between a Panamera Turbo S or a Cayenne Turbo and now I have to decide on a BMW M 5 in addition.
My wife loves BMW and especially the 5 series. And she’s fallen in deep love to the M since she saw the car in person.
In my view the Panamera create a more exclusive impression, but on the downside that attracts more attention. But no doupt, the AWD is a real advantage, very helpful if you’re living in the south of Germany.

The BMW however looks very much more modern and he is it in fact. That he looks like a 520 diesel with sport package, is more of an advantage. The price is 60.000,-€ lesser, compared to the Panamera Turbo S. Thats a lot of money and worth to think about.

Certain gadgets such as Speedlimit Info, Headup Display, RTTI (real time traffic info), iDrive Controller, lane assist, soft close, and much more, you can’t get in a Panamera, not even for money.  I'm currently not sure how my decision will be.

in the AutoMotor&Sport edition Dec 15th they compared the M5,E63 and Panamera Turbo against eachother - and the Porsche came out 3rd , 2nd Merc and 1st M5.

Very interesting.....thanks!!

BjoernB:

in the AutoMotor&Sport edition Dec 15th they compared the M5,E63 and Panamera Turbo against eachother - and the Porsche came out 3rd , 2nd Merc and 1st M5.

Have you seen the M5 performance in the AMS test ? I've read two previous reviews from other car magazines and the best time I've seen was 12.9 seconds from 0-200 kph. In the AMS test, the M5 achieved 12.2 seconds. It also seems to be a fact that AMS always uses old performance figures in reviews, so to save money (or time or whatever), they don't test the car under the same conditions but take previous test figures and use them. What doesn't sound too important (they tested it, right ?), it makes a huge difference, especially on turbo charged cars. If they tested the Panamera Turbo at 30°C outside temperature and the M5 at 10°C outside temperature, the power difference can already make a huge difference.

14.9 seconds form 0-200 kph for the Panamera Turbo is quite bad, all reviews I've seen so far had figures below 14 seconds. 

The handling review figures are also somehow weird since they contradict the performance figures from older reviews (talking E63 AMG vs. Panamera Turbo now but also Panamera Turbo S since the Panamera Turbo actually has the same chassis to my knowledge).

I don't say there is something bogus going on, AMS is Porsche-friendly (and BMW-friendly ) but I just think they didn't test the cars at the same time, which can make a huge difference in performance. 

Regarding the M5 being a bargain: No doubt about it. Like Conny997 said, the price difference is huge and since the M5 is more in the Panamera Turbo S than in the Turbo league, the price difference is even bigger.

I will be honest with you guys: If the M5 had AWD, I'm not sure I would have gone for the Panamera Turbo S and I'm not kidding. However, a car with so much power, a car I move my family in and a car I'm using as a daily driver, including vacations to Austria (skiing) in deep winter time, such a car needs to have AWD. You should see the weather over here right now where I am, right now I have to meet my family at a cable car and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to pick them up because there is already huge snow on the street and the cable car station is pretty high up in the mountains, the road has a 6% inclination and I've already seen a couple of cars returning because they couldn't make it, mostly 2WD models...I think.  This may not be important to somebody living in Dubai or Florida but for me, this is very important. I know that the Panamera is no SUV but even AMS mentioned in their test review that the M5 has traction problems on wet surfaces and you really don't want to turn off ESP on the M5 when it is wet. Even with the AWD of the Panamera, this can be a challenge.

Another advantage of the M5, like Conny997 mentioned it, is the stealth look. In black or a darker color, most people won't notice that this car has 560 horses. In Germany, definitely a very good thing.

To make it easier for you: No snow, barely rain, no need to stand out from the crowd...go for the M5.

If you want maximum possible performance in a sedan, combined with excellent safety under almost all driving conditions and a little bit of attention (depending on color choice)...go for the Panamera Turbo S.

Oh...according to reviews, the steering feel on the Panamera Turbo/S is the sportiest and direct one but make no mistake, the M5 seems to be very fast too, despite the slightly synthetic steering feel (according to reviews, I haven't driven it yet, winter time...).

In a car magazine, the M5 came second after the Panamera Turbo S in a track test but by a very tiny margin. I doubt however that an amateur driver can be that fast with RWD, especially on a public street. The AWD will be always an advantage...unless of course your name is Walter Röhrl. 

I know it is a difficult decision but if money is not important, I would choose the Panamera Turbo S. Otherwise, the M5 is a pretty good choice but just don't forget that 560 horses in a RWD car aren't always fun. Before you take the plunge, do a test-drive in a M5.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Thanks RC! No weather issues for me so its looking like an M5 but not without a test drive

Upsa:

Thanks RC! No weather issues for me so its looking like an M5 but not without a test drive

Clever decision.  I really don't understand why BMW doesn't at least offer a xDrive option for the M5. It shouldn't be too difficult and even if they charge 10k EUR more for it, it would still be a nice alternative to the Panamera Turbo.

The "Pajun" (the smaller Panamera) may be a nice M5 competitor in 2-3 years but right now, to be honest, the M5 doesn't even have a real competitor because it offers so much for such a great price. Still...no AWD is a deal breaker for me and some other interested people I know.

Oh, I forgot the engine/exhaust sound: There are several reviews claiming that the new M5 has a great V8 sound but a friend who works for BMW (not M GmbH though) claims that he heard the M5 and it sounds very similar to the X5M, maybe with a slightly deeper growl. Pay attention because if it sounds like the X5M, you will hate it sooner or later. The Panamera Turbo with PSE (Porsche Sport Exhaust) offers an amazing V8 sound, same with the Turbo S (PSE is a standard option).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

The M5 test here:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/BMW-M5-4.4/260568/

and something about the engine sound:

Incredible that Porsche can sell the Turbo S Panamera at some 65% more than the M5!!! This proves the power of the Porsche brand and perhaps some corner cutting on the part of BMW. For example in the Autocar test it is mentioned that the M5 brakes suffered severe fade after 10 laps of the test circuit. I'm sure Porsche wouldn't allow that to happen whereas most probably BMW picked up the best brakes available from their large parts bin.

Personally, if I wanted a super saloon I would get the M5 and use the money saved on a good, even if pre-owned sportscar like the Carrera S. Unless, AWD was a must.

"Form follows function"

Well, since the Panamera Turbo S would be my only (family) car, AWD is indeed a must for me.

Despite that, you are right, the Panamera Turbo S is very expensive but you forget one thing: The Panamera is supposed to be a 7 series competitor and not a 5 series competitor. The rear room of the Panamera is amazing, even adults feel like in 7th heaven. This is not the case in the M5 but I agree that I doubt that many Panamera buyers got the car actually for the huge interior room. 

On the other hand, the Panamera Turbo S has AWD, an impeccable quality, the interior is much more appealing than on the M5 (kind of typical boring BMW interior) and in the hands of an amateur driver, the Panamera Turbo S is unbeatable, on the street and on the track. Does this justify that much money more ? I don't know. I would probably go for a M5 if it had AWD. 

Porsche kind of exaggerated with the Panamera price tag and this could bite them in the a.. as soon as the economy slows down in the typical Panamera markets. I also have to confess that I'm kind of disappointed with the many performance options one actually has to pay on the Panamera Turbo. This car should have all the performance options as standard, including the sport exhaust. The Turbo S of course has everything but at a huge premium. This is something I never liked about Porsche. I also can't understand why a car for almost 170k EUR doesn't have PCCB and Burmester as standard options. This is ridiculous.

Right now, I have no choice. If I would live in a region with warm weather, I may have chosen the M5 but I'm still not sure. When it comes to spirited driving, the AWD still has a huge advantage in the hands of an amateur driver. I remember how many tricky situations I had in my former E55 AMG or even in my wife's M3 Cab because of the RWD. Never had one in my 997 Turbo...the AWD is just another safety feature. I know that a real pro driver would probably be faster in the RWD car or at least as fast as in the AWD car but let's be serious: How many of us consider themselves pro drivers ?

Still...Porsche is charging way too much money for their cars, the 991 is another example. This works as long as there is a market but when the economy slows down and/or the competition gets stronger, things can change fast.

I actually think that after the introduction of the M5, Panamera Turbo and Panamera GTS sales will be hurt, especially in countries like the US and Germany, where money still "counts". 

Your arguments were actually the reason why I've chosen the X5M over the Cayenne Turbo but to be honest, the X5M got boring fast. Very nice high performance truck, stealth look, technically reliable but the sound sucks big time and the interior kind of sucks too.

Speaking of engine/exhaust sound: I know that BMW used an electronically generated sound but while it may sound great from the inside, I'm not so sure about the outside. Judging by my X5M and all tuner attempts to improve the sound of this engine, I doubt that the M5 sounds any better than my X5M...from the outside. Pathetic, sounding like a V8 from the inside and like a tuned up 4-cylinder from the outside, this just doesn't cut it for me. IF true, I haven't heard the M5 yet.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

The M5 is a great car but the Panamera Turbois simply on a higher class level than the M5 when considering the entire package. Panamera is still a bit expensive though for what you get, but the more expensive the car is the less you get in return for your money, thats the same with all manufacturers, just that the Pan seems like its a bit expensive even for Porsche standards. Still the Panamera Turbo would compare to a hypothetical M7 or something like that, not an M5. Just my personal view of it anyway 

Carlos from Spain:

The M5 is a great car but the Panamera Turbois simply on a higher class level than the M5 when considering the entire package. Panamera is still a bit expensive though for what you get, but the more expensive the car is the less you get in return for your money, thats the same with all manufacturers, just that the Pan seems like its a bit expensive even for Porsche standards. Still the Panamera Turbo would compare to a hypothetical M7 or something like that, not an M5. Just my personal view of it anyway 

I fully agree, Carlos but still...the effective price difference is at least 40k EUR and this is a lot. On the other hand, the Panamera seems to be a pretty reliable car, my dealer claims that he barely sees Panamera at the repair shop.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

True, and will also hold value better AND doesn get outdated in looks and "specialness" as quickly as an M5 

Can you please comment on the X5M brakes compared to your previous Cayenne Turbo?

Below par brakes (for the class of vehicle they compete in) has been a BMW M Division weakness for many years now. The new M5 is not unaffected according to the Autocar test.

"Form follows function"

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

RC - if you made yr decision why don't u look into 2nd hand ? Without doing big search I found one already 80k below list with 6000km.... I personally believe this car will loose it's value rather fast - and let's say 50% over the years at least is a lot of money comming from NP....

http://www.autoscout24.ch/Search/Detail.aspx?lng=de&nav=7&vehtyp=10&SearchType=AS24&make=12937&allmakes=AS24&typename=panamera+turbo+s&index=1&vehid=266215

BjoernB:

RC - if you made yr decision why don't u look into 2nd hand ? Without doing big search I found one already 80k below list with 6000km.... I personally believe this car will loose it's value rather fast - and let's say 50% over the years at least is a lot of money comming from NP....

http://www.autoscout24.ch/Search/Detail.aspx?lng=de&nav=7&vehtyp=10&SearchType=AS24&make=12937&allmakes=AS24&typename=panamera+turbo+s&index=1&vehid=266215

Thanks.  Problem is: The car has to replace my Carrera GTS Cab and I got a very good lease offer from Porsche Financial, I don't think I could actually afford buying the Panamera Turbo S. Only drawback of this deal: I have to keep the Turbo S for at least 4 years, which could be a mental challenge if the Panamera facelift proves to be better than the claims I've heard so far.

To be honest: I wouldn't buy a car in this price range, I did it once (Cayenne Turbo S) and had the worst resale value experience of my life. Never again. Lease offer is great, so I take it. Four years isn't that bad, at least I have to stick to one car. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

reginos:

Can you please comment on the X5M brakes compared to your previous Cayenne Turbo?

Below par brakes (for the class of vehicle they compete in) has been a BMW M Division weakness for many years now. The new M5 is not unaffected according to the Autocar test.

The X5M is actually an awesome car, why should I lie ? I'm a diehard Porsche fan but I really liked this high performance SUV a lot, it feels and drives very sporty and the amount of money I saved by not going for a Cayenne Turbo instead is really substantial. If my wife would actually like this car, I would buy it from BMW when the lease ends next year in April. Unfortunately my wife wants something smaller and with a lower fuel consumption, so the X5M isn't really the right SUV for her. It will be very likely replaced by a Cayenne or Cajun Diesel.

The X5M brakes are good but not what I would call Porsche "class". On hot days, driving with full load (family, luggage), the brake starts to fade, especially after a couple of high speed runs on the Autobahn. Still...pretty impressive for a SUV and for a BMW. My wife's M3 Cab is much worse in that domain (BMW apparently forgot to adapt the M3 Cab brake to the additional 200 kg of weight ).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Seeing your preferences of sleek under the radar performance I vote the M5 as well.

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

RC:

BjoernB:

RC - if you made yr decision why don't u look into 2nd hand ? Without doing big search I found one already 80k below list with 6000km.... I personally believe this car will loose it's value rather fast - and let's say 50% over the years at least is a lot of money comming from NP....

http://www.autoscout24.ch/Search/Detail.aspx?lng=de&nav=7&vehtyp=10&SearchType=AS24&make=12937&allmakes=AS24&typename=panamera+turbo+s&index=1&vehid=266215

Thanks.  Problem is: The car has to replace my Carrera GTS Cab and I got a very good lease offer from Porsche Financial, I don't think I could actually afford buying the Panamera Turbo S. Only drawback of this deal: I have to keep the Turbo S for at least 4 years, which could be a mental challenge if the Panamera facelift proves to be better than the claims I've heard so far.

To be honest: I wouldn't buy a car in this price range, I did it once (Cayenne Turbo S) and had the worst resale value experience of my life. Never again. Lease offer is great, so I take it. Four years isn't that bad, at least I have to stick to one car. 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Carlos from Spain:

True, and will also hold value better AND doesn get outdated in looks and "specialness" as quickly as an M5 

In the end, the M5 has to pull itself up from the burden of being a hot-rodded 518.  The Panamera Turbo has no such bottom end to drag down its feeling of being special.  How many taxis look like a Panamera?  And, if any Panamera were used as a taxi, would anyone think "Oh, there goes a typical taxi", or would they think, "Wow, look at that Panamera taxi!"?

If anyone remembers the Chevrolet Cosworth Vega, the same idea applies.  The engine was a marvel, but the car remained recognizable as a bottom-feeder, rust-ridden Vega.  There is something of the oxymoron in evidence here.

--

Mike

2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T

Well...you asked for it. Panamera Turbo...Taxi. 

Don't worry...this was just a car modded by a german car magazine for fun. The really used it for a day as a taxi to get the feedback from passengers but there is no Panamera taxi in Germany...not yet. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

W8MM:

Carlos from Spain:

True, and will also hold value better AND doesn get outdated in looks and "specialness" as quickly as an M5 

In the end, the M5 has to pull itself up from the burden of being a hot-rodded 518.  The Panamera Turbo has no such bottom end to drag down its feeling of being special.  How many taxis look like a Panamera?  And, if any Panamera were used as a taxi, would anyone think "Oh, there goes a typical taxi", or would they think, "Wow, look at that Panamera taxi!"?

Exactly, they M5 may be great value for money compared to a Panamera because it shares platform with a mainstream mid-sized sedan and that saves a lot in costs, since its a... "sport upgraded" mid-sized sedan. But that also has the drawback that its image is shared as well, so many on the streets that people get used to its looks very quickly, becomes common and mundane, also these type of sedans change conpletely with each new version that the outgoing model looks completely oudated afterwards, the  there is the fanily resemblance to lower models like 3-series, etc... all this rubs off on the M5 as well. Not so with the Panamera, they are not a comon site, there is no low mass produced common denominator nor lower end family members with similar family traits, facelifts and new versions don't radically change the looks, etc. its just stays "special" for longer. Its another classs or concept. Thats part of what you pay for in that extra 40k IMO. Not to take away from the M5, its a great car, but its not all advantages to the same performance with the lower pricetag.

--

RC, regarding your disappointment with the depreciation on your Cayenne Turbo S, have you accurately calculated this loss against what you would have spent on lease payments?  For example, in my case my 2009 Cayenne Turbo S cost $130 K, and is now worth $75K after three years.  That's a "loss" of $55K, but if I had leased it my payments over three years would have been around 60K total.  Whether you lease or buy, the U.S. tax deductions are about the same. 

The only real advantages I see of a lease over a purchase are (1)  that a lease does not tie up as much money on the front end; and (2) you don't have to hassle with selling your purchased car when you are done with it.   There may also be a lower purchase tax to pay on a lease as well, as you pay only on the leased amount, not the full purchase.

I would love feedback on my views, as I am considering leasing or buying a car soon. 

The lease has certain advantages for me:

1. I can always choose if I want to put my car on the business or not. When I buy, I have to decide...private or business. If I buy the car for me, not my business, I "loose" the 19% VAT...which is a huge amount of money on such an expensive car. Huge disadvantage when I want to sell this car later on.

2. I always try to get a good lease deal, depending of course on the lease company. I try to get a low initial payment and low monthly rates but a huge residual value. Since I never buy my cars after the lease ends, I couldn't care less about the residual value since I make a km (mileage) lease contract which only takes in consideration the mileage and the status of the car when I return it. Of course the lease company doesn't always play along (low initial payment, low monthly rates) because with a huge residual value, they can't sell the car afterwards for this kind of money. Somehow however, I always managed to get the deal I wanted for various reasons (patience, negotiation, special deals, etc. etc. etc.).

3. Since I don't have a huge sum of money tied up by buying the car, I can invest the money on the stock market. I'm pretty talented (or just lucky ?), so I usually double the money in 2-3 years, sometimes earlier (the current crisis is pretty good for traders...if you don't get greedy). Taking in consideration that the lease is for 4 years, you can imagine how much money I can make by actually NOT buying the car. 

4. The Cayenne Turbo S was 145k when I bought it, I sold it for 54k. After three years and with only 50000 km. A loss of 89k EUR in three years, this is just insane.

5. My dealer (I hope he doesn't read this ) wants to make the deal...badly. I started talking to him over a month ago but he still has no signature under a lease contract. He wants the deal, so he is going to make it happen. I'm happy with his offer but with some luck...  Rushing into deals is never cheap, the initial lease offer was pretty bad since my dealer claimed that there is no special deal for the Panamera yet. Apparently, he was wrong. 

I know that many people are buying their cars but for me, this is no advantage. I would have bought the 997 GT3 RS 4.0, this is a car you keep for 10 or 20 years, just as a toy. I couldn't afford it, so I didn't do it. Any other car, I keep 3-4 years, maybe 5 and thats it. I don't really get attached to cars like other people. I like the cars but when they are old, they have to go. I am attached to family and people though, this is something completely different. Cars are things for me, even if I enjoy them with my full heart. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Thank you RC, very comprehensive response.  I will keep you posted on my lease or purchase decision...

RC:

I try to get a low initial payment and low monthly rates but a huge residual value. 

Don't you still bear the residual risk, so lowering the initial payments is only reducing your cash flow burden - and increasing your carrying (interest) cost..?

Can you claim VAT on a passenger vehicle in Germany..?  If so, is it only if it's a lease?  (Otherwise the VAT issue would be irrelevant: you'd pay the VAT over to the dealer and claim it back in your next return - either all upfront if buying it cash, or with each payment on a monthly lease)

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)