Crown

Budster:

Well, at least you know you've had about every question put to you on this and you've had your decision-making pushed to the limit.

It's been a fun thread - enjoy the count-down to the Cayenne!

 

 

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Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Nothing has been written in stone yet, I take my time. Judging by the reaction of my kids (and surprisingly my wife too), I think it is going to be the Cayenne Turbo. It is also funny: I had the Cayenne parked next to my office for a couple of hours and nobody actually mentioned it. A good sign... 

The Panamera Turbo S is still on my mind though, maybe I give it another shot with the kids... 

It is a pity I already have the Carrera GTS...the "returned" Cayenne Turbo is such a sweet deal...amazing, I could easily retrofit the powerkit if I badly want it. Still thinking about it... 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I almost pressed you on that "returned" one, thinking the same thing, but I realised that the GTS lease deal would be an insurmountable hurdle (I can't imagine that the average person would really need a powerkit on a turbo, but then again you're not the average person!)

I must admit, the ride height of SUVs is very enticing for the kids, and despite the compromise you make in dynamic driving (esp cornering (and come on - you have to admit it is a compromise)), it's a great place to be as a driver too. 

By compromise I mean in a straight unfair apples vs. pears driving comparison between the two cars - not to diminish the fact that the Cayenne is the best SUV and the Panamera is the best...

...not sure what it's the best of, but it's better than the far more expensive Rapide...

(But I still like that Masarati Quattroporte...)

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

... Judging by the reaction of my kids (and surprisingly my wife too), I think it is going to be the Cayenne Turbo. It is also funny: I had the Cayenne parked next to my office for a couple of hours and nobody actually mentioned it. A good sign... 

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 RC,

you are dooooone - case closed - the most senior in your family business has decided already... ...well, that's also the way it works in my family......but, I trust that is certainly no new intel for ...

By the way, the reason for writing this post was, whether or not you had a burmester in the loaner ? (if yes, how was it ?)

Yes, I had Burmester in the loaner and it sounded amazing but it is difficult to find a good comparison. It sounds better than the HiFi Professional system (most expensive available HiFi system for the X5) in my X5M, thats for sure. I also loved the exhaust/engine sound, this is how a V8 has to sound. The V8 sound in my X5M is pathetic.

I also loved the carbon in the loaner, very nice for the Cayenne Turbo.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

God, I just LOVED the center stack/console, look so high tech and modern. The carbon fiber trims makes it look even more luxurious.

Whoopsy:

God, I just LOVED the center stack/console, look so high tech and modern. The carbon fiber trims makes it look even more luxurious.

You can't even imagine how much I liked this car. Dealer sells it at a huge discount but I can't get it because I need to do a follow up lease on the Carrera GTS.  

Thankfully, Porsche agreed to "fix" this issue for me, they will allow me to get out of the GTS lease contract earlier if I lease a new Cayenne Turbo Powerkit or a Panamera Turbo S. The ball is now in my corner...I have to take a decision...fast. The Panamera Turbo S has a 3-4 months delivery time, the next Cayenne Turbo production slot is available for April(!) 2012. Earliest. Ouch.

One thing is for sure, no matter if Cayenne or Panamera but I will get a carbon interior. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Thanks RC  for your Panamera impressions, and the reaction from the wife and kids.  My wife and kids (16 and 10) had the very same reactions when I mentioned I was considering a Panamera.  " We like the high sitting position in the Cayenne, and it is so comfortable."  And they have not even sat in a Panamera yet, but they are initially against it.

I am testing a Panamera tomorrow (without wife and kids) and will really focus on seating position in front and back.  But damn I am sure tempted by the Panamera Turbo S for me--the sleek look, the power, the paddle shifing, elegance, etc.  I was really leaning toward it but I honestly am concerned, like you are, with wife and kids' reactions.  We travel a lot together, and their happiness does influence me.   Cannot afford and do not need a Cayenne and a Panamera.

If I don't go for the Panamera, I doubt I will get another Cayenne to replace my current CTS. I love the car, but want a different experience.   Maybe I will wait until my daughter goes to college (two years) then get the Panny...

My head still tells me to get the Panamera Turbo S, superior handling, superior performance and everything but my heart is actually with the Cayenne Turbo, I can't help it. I also worry a little bit about a possible facelift. If I go for the Panamera Turbo S, I would need to keep the car at least for four years. It is very likely that there is going to be a facelift during this period of time and I can't really say that I love how the Panamera looks. I got warmed up to it, no doubt about it but I still don't consider the Panamera to be an attractive car by any means. To sum it up what a car journalist once told me when I asked him about his initial impressions (he was my "partner" when test-driving the Panamera during an official event): "This car is so ugly but boy is it fun to drive..." I wouldn't call the Panamera ugly but the Corvette front and the hunchback rear don't really make me happy from a design point of view. I know that many people like the Panamera because they know it is expensive and a car used by millionaires and billionaires around the world but I don't know many people who would say: "Boy, this is such a beautiful car." Porsche certainly created some controversy here and I doubt it was intentional. 

The Cayenne is no beauty queen either but it blends in with other SUVs and SUV crossovers pretty well and even if there is going to be a facelift, it won't change the Cayenne design dramatically. On the Panamera however, every clever change could actually improve it's looks a lot, so I would be afraid to end up with a car which isn't at all attractive anymore...if the facelift is as good as I hope it would be.

Btw: Apparently, Panamera sale figures have dropped substantially in Germany, which is no surprise. People start to worry again about a recession and about the Euro, the Panamera just isn't the right car for difficult (economic) times. It portrays wealth in a very offensive way (according to various media sources over here) and this is just plain wrong right now (I couldn't care less but people care...). The Cayenne is a SUV and people seem to hate SUVs but in black, without badges (and only the Hybrid badges in the rear and on the sides... ), it is OK, people won't really bother noticing it, especially since the new Cayenne looks a little bit "Japanese" and more like a crossover SUV from the distance. This is also another reason I want to stick with the normal brake system and not PCCB, it is just too flashy.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC,

I don't know where you live - my location is Frankfurt, which means, I would need a car I could really use as a daily driver everywhere. Perhaps it may not be so much of a problem to other RT-members elsewhere, but "Frankfurt" also means narrow streets and sometimes old narrow parking lots, where, for the latter one will find a lot of nice markings of every colour on the walls...Therefore, if I could contribute something in addition to all the driving aspects already mentioned - my car would be a Cayenne and not the Panamera all the way just because of the size of each vehicle. It is not that I would be a coward to drive the car in narrow streets, but there are these moments when you come from work or else you are tired or/and distracted and then......just my 2cts.

I understand and agree with many of your points RC.  I am not so fond of the Cayenne update look, especially the tail lights and the slanted front end.  I do like the interior more than mine, but not so much that I would make a change from my current 2009.

I probably like the Panarmera design more than you do.  In the flesh it comes together and is very unique and powerful, especially the turbo versioms.  If it were not for my wife and kids' reactions, I would buy the Turbo S without hesitation over the Cayenne.  We shall see--I constantlyl confuse myself!

RC,when do you expect Panamera facelift for turbo S?  For Cayenne Turbo?

Yesterday evening I had a opportunity to take seat in an Aston Martin rapide.

Very nice - inside much smaller then Panamera, more luxury feeling. From outside the car looks even small. Sound great. 

In short I would describe it as a smaller Panamera - Pajun in size. 

So RC, why not such a car?

Just a joke.

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

ALDO:

 

Just a joke.

Thanks god you weren't serious about it. 

I don't like the Rapide design too much, it looks kind of weird in a way, even if it is more stylish than the Panamera design. Performance however is something I wouldn't want to compromise with and the Rapide can't even keep up with a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit (straight line, can't say much about curves). 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

d997h:

RC,

I don't know where you live - my location is Frankfurt, which means, I would need a car I could really use as a daily driver everywhere. Perhaps it may not be so much of a problem to other RT-members elsewhere, but "Frankfurt" also means narrow streets and sometimes old narrow parking lots, where, for the latter one will find a lot of nice markings of every colour on the walls...Therefore, if I could contribute something in addition to all the driving aspects already mentioned - my car would be a Cayenne and not the Panamera all the way just because of the size of each vehicle. It is not that I would be a coward to drive the car in narrow streets, but there are these moments when you come from work or else you are tired or/and distracted and then......just my 2cts.

 

I fully agree with you but you should know that, surprisingly, there isn't much difference in size between the Cayenne and the Panamera, the Panamera is slightly longer (not by much though) but not wider if I'm not wrong.

However, the higher seating position of the Cayenne is much better for city driving, I fully agree.

Right now, I'm 70% inclined towards the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit and only 30% towards the Panamera Turbo S but I want to take the family for another ride in the Panamera, so maybe it will change.

So far however, I think it is going to be the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit. Black, black interior with red stitching (everywhere) and carbon incl. carbon steering wheel, black painted Cayenne Sport Edition wheels and...I'm working on it (Exclusive department)...black painted brake calipers (no kidding). Of course I will also get the whole performance stuff like PDCC and PTV Plus.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Wonderbar:

RC,when do you expect Panamera facelift for turbo S?  For Cayenne Turbo?

Panamera facelift is rumored for 2012, Cayenne facelift is rumored for 2013 or 2014.

Cayenne Turbo S apparently will come 2013 and not 2012.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:...black painted brake calipers (no kidding).
 

I like it - reverse snobbery - the opposite of painting red ones yellow!!

But please forget about the hybrid badge... 

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

RC:

.... I still don't consider the Panamera to be an attractive car by any means. To sum it up what a car journalist once told me when I asked him about his initial impressions: "This car is so ugly but boy is it fun to drive..."

...the Panamera just isn't the right car for difficult (economic) times. It portrays wealth in a very offensive way (according to various media sources over here) and this is just plain wrong right now (I couldn't care less but people care...)....

...which reminds me what it might be like to date Uma Thurman.

But I still would...

Budster:

RC:...black painted brake calipers (no kidding).
 

I like it - reverse snobbery - the opposite of painting red ones yellow!!

But please forget about the hybrid badge... 

Oh...there will be a hybrid badge, no doubt about it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Christian, even though you have explained why the Cayenne over the Panamera I still think you may regret it if you go ahead with it. The Panamera TS will be such a blast and somewhat different to a Cayenne. See the Panamera in the flesh the other week and was shocked how much I like it. The kids will get use to the ride height and sure end up loving it.

Regarding your customers, yes as I stated before, I can relate to this, but, are you sure you would get negativity from the choice of the Panamera ?, badge it with a diesel . Jealously is a PITA.

throt

"I didn't do it"

throt:

Christian, even though you have explained why the Cayenne over the Panamera I still think you may regret it if you go ahead with it. The Panamera TS will be such a blast and somewhat different to a Cayenne. See the Panamera in the flesh the other week and was shocked how much I like it. The kids will get use to the ride height and sure end up loving it.

Regarding your customers, yes as I stated before, I can relate to this, but, are you sure you would get negativity from the choice of the Panamera ?, badge it with a diesel . Jealously is a PITA.

Even if I badge the Panamera with a Diesel badge, it is still a Panamera. I don't know why but whenever I put the word Panamera in my mouth, people seem to think that this is some sort of Rolls Royce or whatever.  Even my tax advisor was deeply impressed when I told him about my intentions, his words were "are you sure you can park this car in front of your business?". Well...no.

Best example: muss nur teuer genug sein! ab 200.000 öro reissen die bonzen der PAG die kübel aus den händen

​This is a comment about the Panamera from the largest german Porsche forum. Translation: It just has to be expensive enough! Over 200000 EUR, the rich ("Bonzen" actually means filthy rich in a very negative sense) will rip them off Porsche's hands

Bottom line is: While I surely would get a Panamera if I would live in Munich or Frankfurt or even in Stuttgart, I wouldn't get it where I live now. Unless of course I would use the car for everything with the exception as a daily driver (incl. driving to the office).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

OK, black brake calipers aren't available anymore from Exclusive (for the Cayenne Turbo).  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Budster:

RC:...black painted brake calipers (no kidding).
 

I like it - reverse snobbery - the opposite of painting red ones yellow!!

But please forget about the hybrid badge... 

Oh...there will be a hybrid badge, no doubt about it. 

Might as well create something new, slap both the Diesel and Hybrid badge on, make it a 'Diesel Hybrid".

Hi RC.  I spent some time today driving a new Panamera Turbo (Black/Black).  It is a stupendous car--that about sums it up for me.  In person, with the spoiler extended, I think the design is truly powerful, unique--far more attractive than in photos.  I could have camped out overnight just to keep looking at it.

The power is linear and constant, nothing snappy, but damned impressive.  The car has basically the same engine as my Cayenne, but the lighter weight and better aerdynamics make the car noticeably faster.  I didn't come close to finding its portential.

All of that said, I truly appreciate yoiur dilemma about which car to choose--a Cayenne Turbo or the Panamera Turbo S.  The Cayenne is a fabulous family car.  It has that wonderful "command" driving position and height, great visibility all around, better luggage space and off road vacation ability.  It is a family car first--albeit a stunningly powerful one--with lots of wonderful add ons.  On the other hand, the Panamera Turbo S is a personal car first, with some famly add ons (four doors, hatchback, comfort and easy drivability when you choose).  Or put another way the Cayenne has practicality first, then passion.  The Panamera has passion first, then practicality.

I am not telling you anything you don't already know, but I while I think you will like the Cayenne enormously, you will deep down wish you had the Panamera.  And that's not a bad thing, especially in your business and community context.   As trite as the Rolling Stones song is, there is some  truth to the lines "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you just might get what you need."  And I admit to being torn just like you.  My wife and kids love the family aspects of the Cayenne, and don't want a change.  But in the end, when it comes down to it, I will probably go for the Panamera and hope my passion is infectious.

Damn Porsche--I doubt I will ever understand its appeal for me....

-

Ciao Christian

As i said before go with the Cayenne Turbo,you will never regret!

But,can you make us a little and short report on the difference between your X5M and the Cayenne Turbo you drove in performance and handling?

Thanks

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo

Super Darius:

Ciao Christian

As i said before go with the Cayenne Turbo,you will never regret!

But,can you make us a little and short report on the difference between your X5M and the Cayenne Turbo you drove in performance and handling?

 

Thanks

The weather was pretty bad, so I couldn't do any real performance driving but there are four things I actually like more on the X5M:

1. Acceleration from standstill (kickdown): The X5M accelerates instantaneously, the Cayenne Turbo still has a tiny lag before it starts off (both cars had their sportiest "setting" like M button and Sport button activated). 

2. Acceleration (no kick down) during driving: The Cayenne Turbo has a tiny lag compared to the X5M, the X5M feels almost like a N/A car without a turbo. No kidding. Again: Sportiest settings active.

3. X5M steering is very direct, Cayenne Turbo steering is lightly less direct but not by much but it makes the X5M actually feels lightly lighter than the Cayenne Turbo (which is lighter)

4. X5M chassis feels stiffer, in comfort mode (EDC turned off) you can barely feel the bumps in the street but it is still stiff, the Cayenne Turbo kind of feels a little bit like a ship, the suspension is kind of soft and it goes "up" and "down", if you get my drift. In sport mode however, both feel very stiff.

What I like about the Cayenne Turbo ?

1. Exhaust/engine sound, this is a real V8 sound, the X5M sounds really really bad, especially for a SUV

2. Interior: Very classy and refined, it feels like a glove but the X5M feels a lot bigger from the inside

I'm afraid that in the engine/throttle response department, I like the X5M more than the Cayenne Turbo. The X5M doesn't really feel like a turbo or a SUV. The Cayenne Turbo always shows a little lag.

The auto gearbox of the X5M is also very fast but sometimes very uncomfortable (you get a real "kick" from it in M mode), the Cayenne Turbo Tiptronic does the job much better in the comfort department, even in Sport mode.

I'm afraid in the engine/chassis department, the Cayenne Turbo can't beat the X5M but since I really want to drive at least ONE Porsche in the family, it has to be the Cayenne Turbo, I have no other choice. BMW M GmbH did a marvelous job with the X5M but the engine/exhaust sound takes half the fun away, no kidding.

Oh...somebody claimed that the 2012 Cayenne Turbo doesn't have that lag from standstill anymore: I'm afraid it still does, sorry. The X5M is always slightly ahead from standstill.

This video (sorry, it is in German) shows in a pretty spectacular way what both SUVs are capable of in the right hands. Unfortunately they made a mistake during the test: The claimed that the X5M ESP system couldn't be turned off completely and this is why the Cayenne Turbo actually won the track "competition" but apparently they didn't really know how to turn off the X5M ESP completely because there is a way and they should have asked M GmbH. A later comparison test actually showed that both cars are pretty much equal on the track when ESP is turned off.

You can also see how the X5M moves away from the Cayenne Turbo from standstill but after a while, the Cayenne Turbo catches up, both have an equal 0-200 kph performance time though, 16.7 seconds. With powerkit, the Cayenne Turbo is one second faster, thus 15.7 seconds. Pretty impressive for a SUV.

Also keep in mind that the cars in this video had winter tires and there was still ice and snow on the track. This video actually proves that SUVs are pretty fast, if driven by the right people. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=758k62f7amU

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Looking at this video (which is great fun with competent driving and some craziness) the Cayenne appears the more composed car especially in curves (and faster on the brakes that allows later braking in corners, if I understood the commentary well). The off the line advantage of the BMW is rather academic as the Porsche more than catches up.

Also next to each other the Cayenne, although no beauty itself, is the more attractive shape with more personality.

If I were RC, I'd definitely get the Powerkit on the Cayenne, so as not have any regrets later.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Looking at this video (which is great fun with competent driving and some craziness) the Cayenne appears the more composed car especially in curves (and faster on the brakes that allows later braking in corners, if I understood the commentary well). The off the line advantage of the BMW is rather academic as the Porsche more than catches up.

Also next to each other the Cayenne, although no beauty itself, is the more attractive shape with more personality.

If I were RC, I'd definitely get the Powerkit on the Cayenne, so as not have any regrets later.

Of course I get the powerkit, what do you think ? 

Btw: The Cayenne Turbo looks the "more composed" car in the video because they didn't manage to turn ESP completely off on the X5M. Which btw. is possible but they didn't know how, so they assumed that just pressing the ESP button does the job. Judging by my personal X5M vs. Cayenne Turbo performance so far (I had an encounter once and we also tried an early production CTT vs. the X5M), I wonder if the Cayenne Turbo in the video actually didn't have the powerkit ? 

Anyway: I want to have one Porsche in the family and I shouldn't complaint, the Cayenne Turbo is great.

Only problem seems to be the delivery time: My dealer's last April slot has gone and the next one he has is in June 2012. I'm actually thinking about getting a 2013 Cayenne Turbo because June is already pretty late and 2013 production should start in July or so.
I'm also still thinking about the Panamera Turbo S...but the facelift is close, so I'm not sure.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

"I'm also still thinking about the Panamera Turbo S...but the facelift is close, so I'm not sure" --RC

I spoke to my dealer.yesterday about the timing of the Panamera facelift, and he said not until 2014.  He says he is already getting allocations for 2013 for the current line, so that would not be happening if facelift was coming in 2013.  Do you have other information? 

On your Panamera vs. Cayenne decision, why not keep the X5M as your family hot rod, then get the Panamera?  Maybe I am missing something...

Wonderbar:

On your Panamera vs. Cayenne decision, why not keep the X5M as your family hot rod, then get the Panamera?  Maybe I am missing something...

RC cannot park the Panamera on his drive and his work location.

throt

"I didn't do it"

Thanks for the comparison RC!

So,the BMW goes like the Porsche maybe also better,but the Porsche is THE Porsche

997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo