CloseCarlos please check if your test car has the "Power Steering Plus" (option 658) and comment on it It's good if you compared to a car w/o this option.
IMO this option is totally unnecessary on a car of this size/weight and character.
"Form follows function"
Dec 10, 2011 6:39:43 PM
Dec 10, 2011 7:19:12 PM
reginos:
Carlos please check if your test car has the "Power Steering Plus" (option 658) and comment on it It's good if you compared to a car w/o this option.
IMO this option is totally unnecessary on a car of this size/weight and character.
Yes it does, and you can feel that in maneuvering like parking the steering becomes lighter, and at speed it stiffens up, but I cannot compare it with one without it as this is the only car available in this dealership's region. What I can say is that it doesn't seem to hinder steering feel nor general handling.
Dec 10, 2011 7:21:33 PM
I found the roof of the rear seats to be low, then again I haven't sat on the rear seats of my 997S in ages so maybe its the same. Can anybody measure the height from the rear seats to the roof in a 997 for me? once from the foward edge of the rear seat vertically to the roof, and another measurement from the back of the rear seat to the roof. I don't have a 997S since I lefty mine in the dealership when I picked up the 991. TIA.
Dec 10, 2011 7:51:00 PM
Dec 10, 2011 8:13:05 PM
Carlos from Spain:
I don't have a 997S since I lefty mine in the dealership when I picked up the 991.
Carlos: Did you trade your 997S for this 991 or just testing it?
Testing a new car is a hard thing, to actually find the reality. One's mind is overwhelmed for the new thing and it takes a while to sink into the car and become one with it. Often first impressions do not last.
I suggest you pick a few roads - curvy, wide sweepers, for high-speed handling and others mountain curvy, tight for low speed, high-G handling. Do each stretch more than once, back and forth, concentrate on dynamics, both suspension and steering. You and I are interested in feeling and feedback. Test the WB increase for the classic 911 dance going fast through a slalom/esses. Have fun!
_________________________________________________________________
"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.
Dec 10, 2011 8:33:27 PM
Alex18_996CC:
Carlos we are a seriously waiting your full report !!
, may be after real madrid and barcelona match ??
How did you like it ??
I'm writing it right now as we speak, its going to take me a while to finish 
but hopefully will be ready by begging of the week 
Dec 10, 2011 8:42:58 PM
Carlos from Spain:
reginos:
Carlos please check if your test car has the "Power Steering Plus" (option 658) and comment on it It's good if you compared to a car w/o this option.
IMO this option is totally unnecessary on a car of this size/weight and character.
Yes it does, and you can feel that in maneuvering like parking the steering becomes lighter, and at speed it stiffens up, but I cannot compare it with one without it as this is the only car available in this dealership's region. What I can say is that it doesn't seem to hinder steering feel nor general handling.
Thank you! This is good news.
"Form follows function"
I have driven the 991S yesterday for two hours and must say I am very, very much impressed. This car is in a totally new league as far as 911's go. I find the styling superb; interior a major step forward (making the 997.1 almost look ancient). It is a different breed of 911, but still very 911. (I also own a Panamera and get a lot of attention; driving this brand new model arund Holland for two hours; nobody paid attention; just another 911..)
Driving the 991 is a dream. The car is much more stable; the suspension is surprisingly comfortable at low speeds on uneven roads (suspension in "normal" mode); I liked the steering very much (car had "steering plus"); light but direct. All in all this car and its feel is much more nature. And yes you can drive a 991 like a Panamera Coupe (in a way). However push the Sport Plus button and keep revs at 5000rpm+ and the phenomenal gearbox (gear change is lightning fast) and sports exhaust makes you feel like driving a Ferrari 458 (but this one won't burn down!). Fantastic!
Anyhow I have ordered one on the spot; 991S; PDK gearbox; Braunanthrazit Metallic with black Carrara 20" wheels; exterior chrome trim; Interior in black leather with adaptive sportseats; PCM and lots of other small stuff. Build slot is beginning of March.
I am excited!
Dec 10, 2011 8:51:46 PM
ADias:Carlos: Did you trade your 997S for this 991 or just testing it?
Testing a new car is a hard thing, to actually find the reality. One's mind is overwhelmed for the new thing and it takes a while to sink into the car and become one with it. Often first impressions do not last.
I suggest you pick a few roads - curvy, wide sweepers, for high-speed handling and others mountain curvy, tight for low speed, high-G handling. Do each stretch more than once, back and forth, concentrate on dynamics, both suspension and steering. You and I are interested in feeling and feedback. Test the WB increase for the classic 911 dance going fast through a slalom/esses. Have fun!
I'm just testing it, I have no plans right now to change the 997S-20mm, maybe next year.But I needed to know now how the 991 turned out compared to the 997, which don't get me wrong, I love and enjoy so much even after 80,000 miles, since after all the 991 is what the future has lined up for us and depending on how the 991 turned out that would influence when I would be making the change (next year or later), I can't keep the 997 for ever, lets face it, its not a classic like a 993 or 964 that you would want ot keep forever, and I use my 911 for daily driving which is not compatible with that.
As to testing the 991, as you know personally we have some great roads for testing here, its were I take all the Porsches I test (some city, some highway, and mountain roads). Today was wet but went out in the morning and afternoon again nevertheless and its also good for testing some aspects as well, tomorrow is going to be a sunny day and 15ºC so I will also test in the dry then. I will be thorough as I usually try to be in the roadtests, but bear in mind Tony I'm not Senna, I'm just another member doing my best at sharing personal impressions 
Dec 10, 2011 9:07:08 PM
Carlos from Spain:I can't keep the 997 for ever, lets face it, its not a classic like a 993 or 964 that you would want ot keep forever, and I use my 911 for daily driving which is not compatible with that.
The " keepers " from each generation are usually obvious . In 25 yrs time, the 997.2 's Blue Speedster , GT3 RS 4.0 and maybe the GT2 RS , if bought today and stored away unused , will be the collectors' auction " money cars " for this outgoing series, IMO.
The rest just become serial "used cars " , depreciating for 15- 25 yrs , then stabilizing , then inching up slowly only if in very good condition , bought by " everyday " folks who like older interesting cars for sunny weekend use.
MKW:
The " keepers " from each generation are usually obvious . In 25 yrs time, the 997.2 's Blue Speedster , GT3 RS 4.0 and maybe the GT2 RS , if bought today and stored away unused , will be the collectors' auction " money cars " for this outgoing series, IMO.
I'll bet you that in 25 years an RS 4.0 will be worth MUCH more than a Blue Speedster (even though the Speedster has a higher sticker price). I think that car is a blatant rip-off of the buyers (sorry if I offended any owners).
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs). Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello
Dec 11, 2011 6:45:01 PM
MKW:
The " keepers " from each generation are usually obvious . In 25 yrs time, the 997.2 's Blue Speedster , GT3 RS 4.0 and maybe the GT2 RS , if bought today and stored away unused , will be the collectors' auction " money cars " for this outgoing series, IMO.
The rest just become serial "used cars " , depreciating for 15- 25 yrs , then stabilizing , then inching up slowly only if in very good condition , bought by " everyday " folks who like older interesting cars for sunny weekend use.
Whats the point though? There's virtually never been any Porsche thats actually been a good investment, they are for driving, it's just that some lose less money than others.
Even 959/CGT are only about/under list price still. About the only real collector model that has made money is the 73 RS and that took nearly 40 years.
Guy:About the only real collector model that has made money is the 73 RS and that took nearly 40 years.
There are many more models of Porsches that are worth far more than their original purchase prices (and several have appreciated more than the 73RS). BTW, the original price of a 73RS was $12k and they were worth more than that far less that 40 years later (I think less than 10).
73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs). Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello
Wow, do I wish I agreed with you about Porsches being a bad investment--but sadly I cannot. There are some exceptions. I bought my 904GTS in 1971 for $4900, then put about $20K into a fine restoration, and sold it in the early 1980s for $80K. That was top of the market then, but less than one year later they were going for $600K to a million.
The above message was typed shortly before I leaped into a rattlesnake pit...
Dec 12, 2011 6:58:44 AM
Grant:
Guy:About the only real collector model that has made money is the 73 RS and that took nearly 40 years.There are many more models of Porsches that are worth far more than their original purchase prices (and several have appreciated more than the 73RS). BTW, the original price of a 73RS was $12k and they were worth more than that far less that 40 years later (I think less than 10).
I didn't mean it took 40 years to be valuable (I wrote that badly!), what I meant was that most of the very few Porsches that are worth more than their new price (adjusted for inflation) are very old.
Which models of Porsche from the last 20-30 years now trade above original list when adjusted for inflation. The 993GT2 is about the only one I can think of and that's mainly because it was not only a great car, but was produced in very small numbers at the time.
Porsche are just not collected like Ferraris are. The 959 which had as it contemporaries the F40 and 288GTO yet still struggles as an investment, there are 5x as many F40s made, yet they trade for 2-3x the price of the 959. The 288 has about the same volume and trades for 3-4x the price also.
Guy:I didn't mean it took 40 years to be valuable (I wrote that badly!), what I meant was that most of the very few Porsches that are worth more than their new price (adjusted for inflation) are very old.
Which models of Porsche from the last 20-30 years now trade above original list when adjusted for inflation. The 993GT2 is about the only one I can think of and that's mainly because it was not only a great car, but was produced in very small numbers at the time.
Porsche are just not collected like Ferraris are. The 959 which had as it contemporaries the F40 and 288GTO yet still struggles as an investment, there are 5x as many F40s made, yet they trade for 2-3x the price of the 959. The 288 has about the same volume and trades for 3-4x the price also.
Isn't that a great thing? It allows us to drive and enjoy our Porsches without having to agonize about not putting too many miles on them, and without having to treat them like investments 
KMM:
Guy:I didn't mean it took 40 years to be valuable (I wrote that badly!), what I meant was that most of the very few Porsches that are worth more than their new price (adjusted for inflation) are very old.
Which models of Porsche from the last 20-30 years now trade above original list when adjusted for inflation. The 993GT2 is about the only one I can think of and that's mainly because it was not only a great car, but was produced in very small numbers at the time.
Porsche are just not collected like Ferraris are. The 959 which had as it contemporaries the F40 and 288GTO yet still struggles as an investment, there are 5x as many F40s made, yet they trade for 2-3x the price of the 959. The 288 has about the same volume and trades for 3-4x the price also.
Isn't that a great thing? It allows us to drive and enjoy our Porsches without having to agonize about not putting too many miles on them, and without having to treat them like investments
I agree entirely. And even after adjusting for inflation, you'd have to then compare the real return to other asset classes before concluding their position as an investment. The very rare example of any car being a proper investment with a decent real return (remember they have no yield) is only identified after the fact. Any if you have the luxury of hindsight, you could make money out of anything!
Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)
Budster:I agree entirely. And even after adjusting for inflation, you'd have to then compare the real return to other asset classes before concluding their position as an investment. The very rare example of any car being a proper investment with a decent real return (remember they have no yield) is only identified after the fact. Any if you have the luxury of hindsight, you could make money out of anything!
The concept of buying any car as an investment is only valid as an argument to justify it to our wives. 
Just hope she doesn't read any stupid lifestyle magazine articles about jewellery being a good investment.
fritz
KMM:
Isn't that a great thing? It allows us to drive and enjoy our Porsches without having to agonize about not putting too many miles on them, and without having to treat them like investments
I completely agree, I've always treated cars as being worthless when I've bought them, then anything returned on sale as a bonus. That way I can enjoy the car, use it for whatever and whenever I want and never feel bad about it.
That said a friend bought an F40 7 years ago when I spent about the same amount on a 996GT2 plus Ruf Nardo conversion and he's now sat with a car worth about 5x what mine sold for..... oh well....
On Order: 991 C2S Basalt Black/Black - PDK, PSE, SPASM, SportChrono, etc.
Sold: 997.2 C2S Meteor Grey/Black - PDK, PSE, LSD, SportChrono, etc.
Sold: 997.1 C2S Black/Black - PSE, PCCB, -20mm/LSD, Short-shifter, SportChrono, etc.
Hey guys,
I am not really active here in terms of posting but whenever the times comes for a new Porsche, this is the place to go to. I very much appreciate the tons of usefull information here and thank you so much all the contributions the active members make.
Yesterday; I had the chance to drive the 991 S, PDK and I would like to share my impressions.
But first a short history of Porsche and me - for reference: 997.1 4S with PSE => loved the car, the look, the steering, plenty of power, the sound. Only complain: suspension was too hard and too noisy for the bad city roads i spend most of my time on. So the facelift came and I went for the 997.2 Carrera, no S, no 4, no PSE. Suspension was a bit softer but not more comfortable! Too soft - in fact - to feel sporty at times and still hard and loud bang noises and jolts in my back over some holes and tram train tracks. Sound was surprisingly good after a few month even without the PSE, the PSE testdrive car totally disappointing as there was a barely noticeable differences to the normal exhaust. Also liked the 2 wheel drive better then the 4S as the it was more fun to drive in my opinion. A negative change on the other hand was also something they did to the front track wheels, they changed the postion to the car to make it more stable but it gave a weird feeling when doing u-turns. Overall I thought the 997.2 was not really better than the 997.1 which was a bit disappointing.
So along comes the 991: have been following it on here and every other available source, watched hundreds of videos, saw it at IAA in Frankfurt etc. I was excited: I liked the look and the reviews sounded great. Many of the things I did not like in the 997, mainly the suspension were supposedly fixed. So I could not wait to drive it. Yesterday I finally did ...
So what was my first impression? To be honest, I was a bit underwhelmed. Did I expect to much? Do I wanted to love it to much? maybe ...
So what's to like:
still love the ext look, especially the side and the front, the back on the other hand from a very straight view looks not as good as on the pics, but maybe the grey colored car I had does not bring it out as nice as a white ext color. I really like the new lamp design, the bulging not flat glas part - like an old watch. Superb.
Love the inside, i dont mind the panamera similarities, everything looks and feels more quality. Not hugely better than the 997.2 like some wrote but overall a bit nicer. Quite like the new door closing sound and feel. Really nice!
The best part about the 991 in my opinion is the new chassis and suspension. That is how the 997 should have been already. Just great. Brilliant in fact. Comforable over bad roads and yet not soft. I could even drive it in Sport mode in town, something I could do with the 997 only for seconds before I could not stand it anymore. Huge progress. Turn in is better, 200 km/h + driving in a straight line as vastly better. More stable, steering is less nervous here also - just more confidence inspiring.
Also better: the sound outside: louder, especially in sport, much louder at high revs, just more sporty and closer to the 997.1 then the 997.2 in my opinon.
Whats not to like?
a) Sound inside => is a mixed bag, it really does sound a bit artificial from the back seat opening, somehow it just not sound like really coming from the enginge and the car. more like coming from the back loudspeaker. Of course it doesnt but there was a hint of that in my head. Not a deal breaker but not perfect. Question: does anybody know whether the PSE (my test car did not have it) disables the sound composer? that would be my preference and better in my opinion.
b) Steering => I am sorry but it is not as good as the 997.2 steering which was already a bit worse then the 997.1 steering but the loss is bigger this time then from the switch from 997.1 to 997.2; again not a deal breaker it works fine and is certainly no Audi steering but I am sure I will miss the 997 steering in the 991, in fact I would be willing to spend 2000 Euro just for keeping the old one.
c) PDK, well I am just not an automatics guy I guess, so take this with a grain of salt. I never had one before, only in test drives. From my very limited experience I do not see such a huge improvement from the 997.2 PDK to the 991 PDK as some reviews said. In fact there are still things which annoy me: automatic mode => my test car did not have Sport Chrono so I could not test Sport plus, but in Sport and Normal PDK still shifts too early for my taste. Even worse and rather embarrasing: if you step on it, then it goes down 2-3 gears, revs really high, huge sound effects for all bystanders and takes off like a rocket. Some people may like that but for me its just embarrasing in town and it is not something I feel I am controlling. Another thing I didnt like: going 40 km/h in 4th gear, step on the gas and it goes to 1st gear, reving close to the limiter, toons of torque in wet conditions. HELLO??? what were they thinking? going down to maximum of second would be great and you would still be in plenty of torque area having some room before the next shift. That in fact is the problem in my view - the automatic goes always for the fastest solution, i.e. shifting a gear too low for my taste to the the last 500 rpm of the power band and then of course shift up right away again just a slipt second later. The result is a whinning and screaming enging, instead of a much more civilized shift to lets say a 4500-5500 rpm area where there is plenty of torque also and the sound is nice as well. I am sure its a tiny bit slower but i would like it so much more. But maybe its just me ...
In manual mode, much better of course, as I can control the shifts BUT since sometimes I accidently pressed the gas over the limit and came into kick down mode, AGAIN it shifted automatically a gear down even though I was in manual. Just annoying! So overall again unfortunately the PDK is not for me, especially considering the about 6000 Euro more I would have to pay to be happy with it. Sport Chrono (2000) I would have to take with the PDK (3500) which I am not taking without - as well as the higher price for the sport steering wheel due to the paddles (500).
d) a minor thing, maybe it can be changed or programmed but I noticed that the Display next to the Rev Counter (which by the way is brilliant with a great resolution) changes brightness quite a bit. I could not really pinpoint it but sometimes I thougth it got much brighter when I got slow or when i shifted or stopped ... not sure. Maybe somebody knows more about it. It just turned way to bright at night sometimes. Minor thing ... just strange that the main screen does not behave like that so it feels odd.
e) Maybe it was the PDK, maybe a combination of many little things - all taken together but at times I felt like being at home driving a car on Forza Motorsport 4. Actually sometimes not so far away from a Ferrari 458 driving experience, which although the 458 has an even better sound, has an even better turn in and of course is quicker. Overall the 991 is leaning into that direction a bit. Not sure that is good or bad, as I like the 458 a lot but maybe just a bit Porsche atypical compared with history and tradition. I remember the evo review 458 vs. Porsche GT3 RS and the Porsche won because of its analog nature and involvement. I am missing a little bit of that in the 991.
Final Verdict: I will buy one for sure, just for the suspension and chassis alone, its so good. I will very probably get a manual again and I also will not pick the PDCC, it was not on the test car and I did not miss it a bit, very little roll on sport setting anyway. For sure will get the PSE and hope that it overrides the sound composer. Will pass on the Chrono as it makes really more sense with the PDK and not so much without. PADEM as part of chrono: cannot comment as the sport chrono was not in the test car and I have never driven a GT3 but i did not miss anything when doing sharp turns or slalom.
Is the 991 the perfect car - my perfect car? No. My perfect car would be the 991 with 997.1 steering and the enging from the 997 GT3 RS 4.0. so far not part of the car configurator :-)
Will I be happy with it - I am sure I will.
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