Crown

Grant:

RC:

10 laps is a bit extreme for amateur fun driving, don't you think ? 

When I go to open track days (almost every Friday here), I often drive until I need more fuel (small 12 gallon tank).  Somewhere around 45 minutes for the average session - then refuel and do it again (and again)...

I am often tired after 1/2 day (cheaper rates), but sometimes I do this for a whole day and can have 3 hours of hot lapping in a day.

My friend with a Corvette often needs new tires (brand new slicks) just after lunch - mine last for 10 days of this (and my brake pads last even longer - rotors were changed after 5 seasons and were still thicker than spec).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Grant, that is amazing! Sounds too good to be true! 10 half day sessions til new tyres are needed, you use Cups? On what car? Must be very light.

A Carrera S is  great car to discover on the track but I think its tyres and weight would penalise it over regular trackdays useage.

BTW, there's an excellent magazine in France called Flat 6 and apparently, the rumor is that all launch 991 cars were wearing Pirellis because Porsche feels the Michelin Supersport (which incidently was developed on the 997 and 991) doesn't deserve the N rating yet.

Reason: It is TOO sporty!

Budster:
I just don't get sunroofs. Even in South Africa they are IMO a waste of time: simply too noisy. I only ever used the tilt function to create some ventilation - anything more is just annoying...

It depends who makes them. On the Maserati QP, even when closed, they are extremely noise. Very poor design.

I've always loved them on 911s bc they are very discreet, silent when closed but of course yes noisy above a certain speed, but to cruise along I think it's nice.

And of course in tunnels with PSE on!

MKSGR:

 

Did you already test drive the 991  Just asking as you might should do this before forming such a view 

As said I have not and prefer to hold off until the winter tyres come off. Otherwise, not sure why my observations would be different. I commented on the looks and apperance - no need to drive it for that  
--
Off enjoying my car...

I think the Porsche type of sunroof that was carried over from the original 60s cars was there for ventilation purposes at a time when cars didn't have a/c and climate control or even face level ventilation. They were used instead of opening the windows. They were too small for anything else.

Nowadays they are redundant. I wouldn't order a sunroof on a 911 even if I lived in the darkest climate.

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

TEE:

Finally the new Panamera Coupe is here  if the engine would not be in the back one could even call it the new 928
Personally, I dont like the direction this is going. the 911 is losing its sporty feel and look - of course thanks to the good engineering work even my mom can now lap the Ring in 7:40
Real shame. perhaps I am an old school Porsche driver who still likes driver involvement.

I think Porsche do this on purpose in order to be able to offer a whole range of 911s. A Carrera for your mother and a GT3 RS for you.

 

I know its a matter of personal preference but I don't like sunroofs myself. The make a lot of noise, the end up rattling, they are too small to give any feeling of actual openess, the decrease headroon, they add weight to the roof the furthest point from the center of gravety, if they open to the outside they are really ugly, etc. The only thing they were usefull for was for lifting the rear part a bit for ventilation but with mdern climate controls thats not even usefull anymore. After having it in the 996, I ticked the sunrrof delete option in the 997S.

Gnil:

I had a 991 Carrera S PDK for 90 minutes today.

The weather was not great,  with some wet rods and as I got the car at 15:45, there was the end of day traffic.

I am not going to comment too much about the exterior look, exept that I do find the front pumper/intakes/blinkers to be a flaw in the design . No harmony, unnecessary gimmick ( the black plastic that is towards the center of the car in front intakes ) , and the blinkers still would fit better a lexus then a Porsche. The line that goes to the outside after the blinkers is also not my taste and does not suit the car to me . I bet the 991.2 will fix this , just as it did with 997.1 to 997.2

Here is a comparaison:

 

 

The new shape of the lights is nice.

As to the inside, it is nice and feels more luxurious  and spacious , but I am still not a fan of the big central tunnel. I do find it intrusive . The PDK gear lever does also hide some of the buttons, as it is now so high. As RC has said, Porsche should make a smaller and more sporty looking lever. I bet this will also be a new option on 991.2

The back is also a bit too tamed to me, maybe with the ducktail option the car will look more sporty.

Now the driving impressions :

The car feels immediately more ' luxurious' as the chassis/suspensions filters all bumps  and roads joints/holes ...whatever.  I was driving the car mainly in sports mode with the suspension setting in hard , and that was still much softer ( or should I better say , more comfortable ) then normal PASM mode on my 997 with sport chassis.

I tried the car on very bumpy roads, where usually everything shakes and I have to hold tire on the steering wheel, but with the 991, nothing of this. The car stays in his line, and filters all the bumps.  A sporty driver might be a bit disappointed, but the wife will surely appreciate  On the highway, it was extremely smooth.

The understeer has gone !!!!!!!!!!! That is now so different. One can enter tight corner with much greater speed then with the 997, and the car just rolls around the corner . Very nice ! Through round a bouts it is also so much faster.

The down part is that as one can enter with much more speed into the curb, the back tends to slide  also faster . ( It happened to me twice on the wet roads  ) But generally the car is easier to drive fast , more confidence inspiring as the front feels planted , and generally all is more neutral. New customers will like that. The older ones might regret a bit that slow enter,  then waiting to have all the weight on the back wheels , feel it glued to the ground, and accelerate out of the curb.  But I was definitly felt I was faster with the 991 on the slippery roads then with the 997.

 

I forgot to mention the sound : it is now loud, and you can hear all the ' burps and grawl' when you lift the foot front he accelerator.  At some stage I did actually feel the sound was nearly too much , as you can hear the ' echo chamber' and that makes the sound nearly a bit artificial ( which it actually is )

The engine does pull better then in my 997.2 and feels more torkey , but that is not the main difference.

The brakes bite better .

The steering is still very precise, but is also very ' soft' and ' comfortable ' . You feel the road but you do not feel the rocks on the roads anymore. Again, new customers will love it, older ones might regret the steering of the 997.1  ( the 997.2 already lost some to the feed back )

The new PDK is faster and better tuned.

So, to me, generally, this car has not made me want to go and order it , as I did not feel I was gaining much compared to my 997.2 .

If you are looking for more stability, easier driving, more comfort, more ' luxurious' feel, and being faster at the same time, the this car is for you.

As I had anticipated....... I am looking for something more ' raw'  . I will not jump on the Carrera S 991, unless the car with all the sport options will feel different.

Otherwise I will wait for the GT3 to make my choice.

 

Hi Gnil,

Thank you for this honest report..its the first independent review..I really liked it - since its more natural and doesnt have this typical journalist touch. Many thanks

Your report confirms a bit what I suspected..the 991 is not such a great leap as promised by some..but it all depends what words one uses..some people called this car a revolution...for me revolutions in the automotive industry cannot really exist anymore..the change from carburetor to injection was a revolution, the use of ABS etc...but today there a just refinements..the 991 is a refinement of a 997 - nothing more and nothing less. Just drive a Golf 5 and Golf 6..the differences are not  big...in fact very small

Regarding the 991 GT3, that will not be available for customers before 2014 (this I have in written form from Porsche)..in the mean time..just get 997.2 GT3...but I agree that this car is not the best for the swiss winters..but for swiss summer roads...huh..nothing more perfect than hearing a GT3 "kreeping up" the San Bernadino Pass

TEE:

Finally the new Panamera Coupe is here  if the engine would not be in the back one could even call it the new 928
Personally, I dont like the direction this is going. the 911 is losing its sporty feel and look - of course thanks to the good engineering work even my mom can now lap the Ring in 7:40
Real shame. perhaps I am an old school Porsche driver who still likes driver involvement.

I also dont like the new trend that all cars are designed so similar - inside and out - sure it saves costs but what is the point

 

Sorry, really wanted to like the car - perhaps the test drive will change my view in the spring

 

 

--
Off enjoying my car...

The 991 Carrera S is much faster (and easier to drive) than the 997 Carrera S and you compare it with a Panamera Coupe (which btw. hasn't even made public yet ) ?

Have you driven the Panamera Turbo S ? I highly recomend it. It will change your view about sports cars forever.

Again...we are talking about sports cars, not race cars, maybe we should draw a clear line here.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Gnil:

@P-J : I was actually wondering where you are. Nice to see youa round !

Thanks, Gnil  Too much work and business trips...I'll be in Geneva next March - would be great to meet you and Cram for a beer and some gasoline talk

public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road  : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

Boy of boy - I feel like having stepped in a hornets’ nest

I appreciate and acknowledged that the 991 is faster and EASIER to drive than the 997 - hence the reference to my mom

Let me state again, I wanted to like the car as the rest of you. But overall I am disappointed what Porsche is doing with its cars and the 991 in particular. It’s becoming mainstream, appealing to the masses – and I understand why.

Of course the engineers still achieve magic with these cars and I am sure they are all great to drive. But see what is happening with the new Lambo and Mclaren - fast great cars but most people step out feeling underwhelmed for lack of "emotional involvement".

I am not looking for an everyday car to flaunt the traffic jams. I look for an A to A toy. Yes the make still the best sports cars ala 4.0l RS – which I would buy if I could. In my eyes the 911 is slowly blending into a Panamera design and losing its own identity. Never understood the corporate look that car firms are aspiring to these days. On first look all Audis, BMWs and Mercedes look the same to me. And now Porsche. Even Ferrari seems to have the urge now too. I guess it is all in the spirit of costs.

As for the Panamera coupe, it will likely be a lot of 911 under the hood. I still have Porsche running through my veins but rather than get excited about the future – I for one have started to cherish the past. Ferry and his men have built some great cars in the past and only the modern comparison is really showing what great machines and heritage they build in the last decades. As for the Panamera, no, I have never driven it, never felt the urge. Personally, I don’t like the way it looks and I cannot identify myself with the car no matter how fast it goes.

Perhaps the best analogy to what is happening in cars is to see what is happening with skiing. Today, with the carving ski development and the drive to eliminate all bumps from the slopes, it seems that everyone is a master skier. Everyone is now also having to wear a helmet as speeds and lack of controls are leading to big accidents. Understanding and learning the fundamentals is no longer required to get you down the hill...
--
Off enjoying my car...

Carlos from Spain:

I know its a matter of personal preference but I don't like sunroofs myself. The make a lot of noise, the end up rattling, they are too small to give any feeling of actual openess, the decrease headroon, they add weight to the roof the furthest point from the center of gravety, if they open to the outside they are really ugly, etc. The only thing they were usefull for was for lifting the rear part a bit for ventilation but with mdern climate controls thats not even usefull anymore. After having it in the 996, I ticked the sunrrof delete option in the 997S.

+1 . I ticked the delete option on my 997.1 . I did not on my 997.2 . I will on my next one . It does not bring anything. I barely use it.

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

GTlover:

Your report confirms a bit what I suspected..the 991 is not such a great leap as promised by some..but it all depends what words one uses..

Don't get me wrong. There is a big difference between the 997 and the 991, but not the kind of difference that makes me want to jump on it as the difference is mainly in making the car easier to drive / drive fast and more ' comfortable' .

The understeer has gone. That is  actually quite a step  and the interior is also a big step into more ' luxury' feel

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Porsche-Jeck:

 

Gnil:

@P-J : I was actually wondering where you are. Nice to see youa round !

Thanks, Gnil  Too much work and business trips...I'll be in Geneva next March - would be great to meet you and Cram for a beer and some gasoline talk

Absolutly . Looking forward to that . And for once you will be in my backyard 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

TEE:

Boy of boy - I feel like having stepped in a hornets’ nest

I appreciate and acknowledged that the 991 is faster and EASIER to drive than the 997 - hence the reference to my mom

Let me state again, I wanted to like the car as the rest of you. But overall I am disappointed what Porsche is doing with its cars and the 991 in particular. It’s becoming mainstream, appealing to the masses – and I understand why.

Of course the engineers still achieve magic with these cars and I am sure they are all great to drive. But see what is happening with the new Lambo and Mclaren - fast great cars but most people step out feeling underwhelmed for lack of "emotional involvement".

I am not looking for an everyday car to flaunt the traffic jams. I look for an A to A toy. Yes the make still the best sports cars ala 4.0l RS – which I would buy if I could. In my eyes the 911 is slowly blending into a Panamera design and losing its own identity. Never understood the corporate look that car firms are aspiring to these days. On first look all Audis, BMWs and Mercedes look the same to me. And now Porsche. Even Ferrari seems to have the urge now too. I guess it is all in the spirit of costs.

As for the Panamera coupe, it will likely be a lot of 911 under the hood. I still have Porsche running through my veins but rather than get excited about the future – I for one have started to cherish the past. Ferry and his men have built some great cars in the past and only the modern comparison is really showing what great machines and heritage they build in the last decades. As for the Panamera, no, I have never driven it, never felt the urge. Personally, I don’t like the way it looks and I cannot identify myself with the car no matter how fast it goes.

Perhaps the best analogy to what is happening in cars is to see what is happening with skiing. Today, with the carving ski development and the drive to eliminate all bumps from the slopes, it seems that everyone is a master skier. Everyone is now also having to wear a helmet as speeds and lack of controls are leading to big accidents. Understanding and learning the fundamentals is no longer required to get you down the hill...

Hi TEE,

To many things you write I can only say..I will never give away my 997 GT3 and GT2..well - maybe just one these..bu the "real last Porsche"..will be in my Garage as long as I can drive a car..

About the skiing...good example..in fact the carving ski has dramatically increased the number of accidents. lets thope the 991 doesnt do the same ..OK..joke..

Gnil:

GTlover:

Your report confirms a bit what I suspected..the 991 is not such a great leap as promised by some..but it all depends what words one uses..

Don't get me wrong. There is a big difference between the 997 and the 991, but not the kind of difference that makes me want to jump on it as the difference is mainly in making the car easier to drive / drive fast and more ' comfortable' .

The understeer has gone. That is  actually quite a step  and the interior is also a big step into more ' luxury' feel

Hi Gnil,

Yes..of course I read what you wrote...but Im like you..for 10% more comfort, for 5% more speed, for 3% improved fuel efficiency I would not turn in any 997 S..besides the panamera intererior is not my cup of tea.

Regarding understeer: for me this is often exxagerated..if you drive a 997 normal in normal road conditions you dont feel much of it..only if you go faster and faster you will feel this..so 90% of the 911 buyers will probably not feel this difference..or?

thanks again:)

PS: Im happy to see that there is finally some snow in the alps...I was already worried about my ski holiday..

GTlover:

PS: Im happy to see that there is finally some snow in the alps...I was already worried about my ski holiday..

So was I, until last sunday there was not one drop . Between yesterday and this night we should get 30 cm in the mountains . It's a start.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil/Cram love the review. It does make a difference when long time Porsche owners provide their insight to a new model. It certainly has considerable more influence with me in helping me making a decision as to whether to buy the car.

TEE:

 I still have Porsche running through my veins but rather than get excited about the future – I for one have started to cherish the past. Ferry and his men have built some great cars in the past and only the modern comparison is really showing what great machines and heritage they build in the last decades. 
 

Yeah, how about a Singer Porsche as the ultimate...?  Old world 60's looks and charm meets modern (well, 997) technology..?

--

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

Budster:

TEE:

 I still have Porsche running through my veins but rather than get excited about the future – I for one have started to cherish the past. Ferry and his men have built some great cars in the past and only the modern comparison is really showing what great machines and heritage they build in the last decades. 
 

Yeah, how about a Singer Porsche as the ultimate...?  Old world 60's looks and charm meets modern (well, 997) technology..?

--

Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)

I am crazy about Singer Porsches, the ultimate 911!!!!

Stinger's are indeed compelling concepts - but somehow I struggle with the overall concept

I rather save for a 3.0 RS

GTlover:

To many things you write I can only say..I will never give away my 997 GT3 and GT2..well - maybe just one these..bu the "real last Porsche"..will be in my Garage as long as I can drive a car..

About the skiing...good example..in fact the carving ski has dramatically increased the number of accidents. lets thope the 991 doesnt do the same ..OK..joke..

 

I heard this "real last Porsche" when the 993 was replaced by the 996 and look where we are now... 

I really don't understand why people love to wallow in nostalgia ? 

For me, a real Porsche is the one which is fast as hell. So I rather prefer a 991 Carrera S over any older 911 any time. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

GTlover:

To many things you write I can only say..I will never give away my 997 GT3 and GT2..well - maybe just one these..bu the "real last Porsche"..will be in my Garage as long as I can drive a car..

About the skiing...good example..in fact the carving ski has dramatically increased the number of accidents. lets thope the 991 doesnt do the same ..OK..joke..

 

I heard this "real last Porsche" when the 993 was replaced by the 996 and look where we are now... 

I really don't understand why people love to wallow in nostalgia ? 

For me, a real Porsche is the one which is fast as hell. So I rather prefer a 991 Carrera S over any older 911 any time. 

Hi RC,

well, regarding the "last real Porsche"...I was a bit exagerating...but since the GT3/GT2 engine will not be built in such a way anymore...it is indeed the last of these series with GT1 engine block...well..nostalgia...its always nice - isnt it?:)

By the way, if you wanna have a Porsche which is fast as hell - better get a Carrera GT or GT2/RS or GT3RS..or even a GT3 997.2..all of these being faster then the 991S..

So now you even got a free advice from me on your future car...

Gnil, thanks for your feedback. How do you compare the engine sound your 997.2 PSE vs 991 PSE ? I really liked what I´ve read till now about the 991, the fact it´s confortable doesn´t bother me at all, I use my car for big distances so the added confort and refinment are welcome. I love the new interior & exterior design, the new wheels look great too, so for me this car is a total winner over my 997.2, only remarke is power as it doesn´t seem to have much more punch that the 997.2 S

J.Seven

Agree with you RC, but I will say that getting a fast as hell Porsche always has me looking ahead to the next faster than hell Porsche.  For example, my 2009 Cayenne Turbo S is fast as hell, but damn if I am not dreaming obsessively about a Panamera Turbo S.  Geez, I am sick--but love the my disease...

I also respect tradition and currently own two wonderful 356 examples.  But while fabulous, they present a whole new set of concerns--storage, safety, upkeep, rare part replacement, total lack of practicality.  Oh, woe is me...

Wonderbar:

Agree with you RC, but I will say that getting a fast as hell Porsche always has me looking ahead to the next faster than hell Porsche.  For example, my 2009 Cayenne Turbo S is fast as hell, but damn if I am not dreaming obsessively about a Panamera Turbo S.  Geez, I am sick--but love the my disease...

I also respect tradition and currently own two wonderful 356 examples.  But while fabulous, they present a whole new set of concerns--storage, safety, upkeep, rare part replacement, total lack of practicality.  Oh, woe is me...

Same here but unfortunately I can't always afford the next generation "fast as hell" Porsche. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

I heard this "real last Porsche" when the 993 was replaced by the 996 and look where we are now... 

Well, a well maintained  993 is more valuable than a 997.1 and in a year or so more valuable than a 997.2 .

But what is a 996?  

2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2

RC:

Wonderbar:

Agree with you RC, but I will say that getting a fast as hell Porsche always has me looking ahead to the next faster than hell Porsche.  For example, my 2009 Cayenne Turbo S is fast as hell, but damn if I am not dreaming obsessively about a Panamera Turbo S.  Geez, I am sick--but love the my disease...

I also respect tradition and currently own two wonderful 356 examples.  But while fabulous, they present a whole new set of concerns--storage, safety, upkeep, rare part replacement, total lack of practicality.  Oh, woe is me...

Same here but unfortunately I can't always afford the next generation "fast as hell" Porsche. 

Hi RC,

Youre not alone...most of us have the same Problem..

But coming to "power for money"..if you want to have the newest fasion toy - then you need to get a 991S..but if you want "fast as hell" for 991S money - then the 991S is probably the worst choice..just a few examples who will for the same 991S money sinply dust it:

1) 997.2 GT3RS - GT3

2) 997 GT2

3) new Corvette

4) new Nissan GTR (although I would never take this into consideration)

5) used Gallardo etc

6)...etc..

So - there are choices my friend..coming to me - I will always rather choose a bit more performance..even if the car is  a bit older..+ with all the choices I have listed one would certainly loose a lot less money than with the 991

take care, 

Futch:

Grant, that is amazing! Sounds too good to be true! 10 half day sessions til new tyres are needed, you use Cups? On what car? Must be very light. 

 Yes, the custom 73RS replica is only 860kg and it uses inexpensive 15" Toyo RA-1 (street/track tire - much more progressive than MPSC).  Brakes are big (from a 930 Turbo).  Laptime is identical to a friend (Porsche Club driving instructor) in his 997 GT3 RS 3.8, also with steet/track tires.  Nostalgia is alive and well

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

The Singer is a fantastic car, but I just think it has too many weight adding gimmicks. No secret though the older cars are the most found to here, look at, and experience. They may not be the fastest, but they are the best! As of right now, the 993 is sort of the middle child between all the generations, and probably the best. It has the best balance of sportiness, reliability, and versatility. It also looks astonishing! 

I really don't think the most important quality in a Porsche is being fast as hell (even though they are). I think the most important quality is being an absolute blast to drive. Because lets face it, you're never going to get to go fast as hell, but you'll always be driving the car.

With that said, the 991 is certainly still a real Porsche, as it is still probably one of the best driving experiences on the market. 

Gnil:

Now the driving impressions :

I tried the car on very bumpy roads, where usually everything shakes and I have to hold tire on the steering wheel, but with the 991, nothing of this. The car stays in his line, and filters all the bumps.  A sporty driver might be a bit disappointed, but the wife will surely appreciate  On the highway, it was extremely smooth.

But generally the car is easier to drive fast , more confidence inspiring as the front feels planted , and generally all is more neutral. New customers will like that. The older ones might regret a bit that slow enter,  then waiting to have all the weight on the back wheels , feel it glued to the ground, and accelerate out of the curb.  But I was definitly felt I was faster with the 991 on the slippery roads then with the 997.

The steering is still very precise, but is also very ' soft' and ' comfortable ' . You feel the road but you do not feel the rocks on the roads anymore. Again, new customers will love it, older ones might regret the steering of the 997.1  ( the 997.2 already lost some to the feed back )

As I had anticipated....... I am looking for something more ' raw'  . I will not jump on the Carrera S 991, unless the car with all the sport options will feel different.

A review written by someone who knows sports cars. The 911 is now a GT. But, some of us already knew that - key geometry/design changes were bound to guarantee the outcome.

_________________________________________________________________ 

"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.