Crown

if you can drive quick on track in the wet, your even faster in the dry.....smooth smooth smooth, very good practice wet track driving and normally sorts the good drivers out form the average

Let me repeat; you have to be fucking nuts to drive spirited in rain and wet roads. You are the type of people who I want to avoid while driving.

FWIW, I have driven with gusto on wet roads and I know what I am talking about. Those of you who believe you have full control of a car under wet conditions are deluding yourself. Wetness hides oil spots, deep wet road areas, imperfections in the road and so on. Throw in rain and you have an accident waiting to happen.

Tracking a car in the rain and wet roads present different challenges. I can understand why some will do it but again I ask why? You will be slower, often much slower, so what is the point? I know, I know it will make me a better driver.

Sorry Nick, but if you are not able to judge the available grip in the wet and are not able to drive accordingly, and therefore drive extra slow and insecure because of the rain, then you would be the driver I would like to avoid in the rain.

And if you think you hace "full control" in the dry, then thats IS an accident waiting to happen. Drive according to the situation, no more or less, a wet asfalt is just on of many variables you have to consider, like trafic, the vehicle you are driving, the visibility, type and condition of tramac, etc...the world doesn't stop just because the road gets wet to the point that you wouldn't even care about how the car handles in the wet.

On the contrary, from a safety point of view, it would even be more important than in the dry, and I'm what you and what everyone with minimal experience in driving knows is that, in terms of safety its not only about how you are driving that determines your safety on the street, but also your sorroundings (other drivers around you, unforseen circumstances, mechanical problems, etc), and it may come a time when you may need that wet handling when trying to avoid an accident in the wet. So your argument that you don't care about grip and handling in the wet because you drive slow is a flawed one unless you never take out your car when its wet.

--

nberry:

Wetness hides oil spots, deep wet road areas, imperfections in the road and so on. Throw in rain and you have an accident waiting to happen.

 

I agree  If you want to drive fast in the wet only the track is suitable for this.

Johnmonkey:

if you can drive quick on track in the wet, your even faster in the dry.....smooth smooth smooth, very good practice wet track driving and normally sorts the good drivers out form the average

I agree totally. And let me refer this conversation to Garth Stein's novel on life and racing, The Art of Racing In the Rain. He uses the skills and concentration needed to drive in the rain as a metaphor for getting through the hard parts of life with your head still on straight. Think about Jenson Button in the Montreal rain. Soon to be a movie by Patrick Dempsey, starring and driving. Also has a dog named Enzo, who actually tells the story.

--

"I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."

reginos:

Rossi:

But...
Wet handling (Pirelli P Z Zero) was only 1.46,1, some 16 sec worse than the 997, which may explain some of the good ring times.

I've checked the 997.2 test and the very good wet handling time was done on Pilot Sport Cup "N0".

I cannot imagine that the 991 chassis is inherently worse in the wet compared to the older car.

 

I got my copy of this SportAuto edition only today.

The "wet handling mystery" is no mystery at all...

The asphalt temperature was just about 11°C in case of the 991s - but more like 25-35°C in the Supertests of McLaren, GT4RS 4.0 etc.

Thus, the poor wet handling result is primarily the outcome of the adverse track conditions. No need to worry about the capabilities of the car 

nberry:
Wetness hides oil spots, deep wet road areas, imperfections in the road and so on. Throw in rain and you have an accident waiting to happen.

Tracking a car in the rain and wet roads present different challenges. I can understand why some will do it but again I ask why? You will be slower, often much slower, so what is the point? I know, I know it will make me a better driver.

Nick, Nick, Nick...

first of all are we talking about track or street driving? Do you know why, in the rain, some of the better F1 drivers outshine their competitors even if driving an inferior car? Because in these conditions, the driver makes a much bigger difference. Whether you like to track your car in the rain or not is up to you. It certainly is a bigger challenge, there is no doubt about it. More dangerous? If you make a mistake you are very likely to crash, no matter if it´s in the dry or in the wet.

The troublesome issue is the current state of sport tires which feature very little grip under certain circumstances (low tire temperatures, low-friction tarmac, standing water) and I mean very little grip. This is an issue that will arise both on track and street and the differential of great dry grip and bad wet handling is much bigger than on your average daily driver with more versatile tire thread and compound. Add to that the comparatively low weight and wide tires of a sportscar and the drive in the wet will be much more challenging.

Therefore we are not talking about performance driving in the wet as you are trying to imply in your comments, we are discussing about relevant safety potential in your tires.

A Lotus racing in the rain. It's gets wet about a minute in.

"I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."

MKSGR:

reginos:

Rossi:

But...
Wet handling (Pirelli P Z Zero) was only 1.46,1, some 16 sec worse than the 997, which may explain some of the good ring times.

I've checked the 997.2 test and the very good wet handling time was done on Pilot Sport Cup "N0".

I cannot imagine that the 991 chassis is inherently worse in the wet compared to the older car.

 

I got my copy of this SportAuto edition only today.

The "wet handling mystery" is no mystery at all...

The asphalt temperature was just about 11°C in case of the 991s - but more like 25-35°C in the Supertests of McLaren, GT4RS 4.0 etc.

Thus, the poor wet handling result is primarily the outcome of the adverse track conditions. No need to worry about the capabilities of the car 

Thank you for checking.

And the 997.2 test with the much better wet time was published in 08/2008 (test end of June, July most probably) with the higher ambient and track temperatures.

--

"Form follows function"

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

You probably are one of the few to track their cars in the rain. My comment was directed to everyday travel. If you are sane, you don't do spirited driving on wet roads. Handling for safety on wet roads is a different matter. I doubt very much people buy a car because it is faster when roads are wet.

Maybe you are not used to rain were you live but rain is not driving on a frozen lake. If you drive spiritedly in the dry, you can drive spiritedly in the wet just as well, its just that spiritedly in the rain is slower than in the dry in order to keep the same safety buffer as in the dry. You can have fun and enjoy driving in the wet just as well, I have may times, not only that, when commuting or everyday travel, you don't buy a Porsche to have to drag yourself like a snail in the rain. What is not sane is driving at the same speed in the wet as in the dry. But you don't leave your Porsche in the garage just because its raining, its all about adapting the driving to the situation and circumstances. So whether for fun or everyday travel, wet performance is still very important for Porsche owners. 

And even if you drive extremely slow in the rain, you still want your Porsche to handle well in the wet and should consider it to be important, because you may be dragged into in a dangerous situation by other drivers or circumtances in the rain nevertheless and it can mean the difference between having an accident and getting away free. That is unless you never take out the Porsche in the rain, in which case you would be a minority of owners.

couldnt agree more..driving a car with such wide tires on the rain is always delicate..

MKSGR:

reginos:

Rossi:

But...
Wet handling (Pirelli P Z Zero) was only 1.46,1, some 16 sec worse than the 997, which may explain some of the good ring times.

I've checked the 997.2 test and the very good wet handling time was done on Pilot Sport Cup "N0".

I cannot imagine that the 991 chassis is inherently worse in the wet compared to the older car.

 

I got my copy of this SportAuto edition only today.

The "wet handling mystery" is no mystery at all...

The asphalt temperature was just about 11°C in case of the 991s - but more like 25-35°C in the Supertests of McLaren, GT4RS 4.0 etc.

Thus, the poor wet handling result is primarily the outcome of the adverse track conditions. No need to worry about the capabilities of the car 

Hi MKSGR,

well - yes and no - do you think the difference of 8 seconds to the 997.2 could be explained by these 10C difference..? not to mention 16 seconds to the 997.1?

Plus - I just looked at an old Sport Auto test on the 997 GT2 - it was done in november 2009 - like the 991 -also in november - and it did a 1:29,7...again huge difference.

If you ask me - Porsche "cheated" a bit on this test - well cheating is maybe not the right word - but the did everything to lower the time in the dry - knowing that it have devastating results in the wet (hoping - nobody would recognise it anyway)

I bet you if you, if you  would put the michelin on the 991 - you would loose 2-3seconds in the dry but gain back these 8seconds to the 997.2..I would have preferred more such an "honest" result.

If I would buy I would certainly refuse to take it with these Pirelli tires..unless I move to dubai or arizona..

A small % of owners drive their cars on the track. Nevertheless, track performance is a good indication of what to expect from a car on the road in the engine and chassis departments. Therefore, since we all drive in all kinds of weather it's important to know our cars' characteristics on a wet track too, even though we might not take unreasonable risks on the road. We don't drive at suicidal speeds in the rain but OTOH we don't like to tiptoe home like grandmothers.

If Porsche fitted tyres heavily biased towards dry weather characteristics (like P Zero) to the SA test car in order to reduce the laptimes and in so doing they ignored wet performance, it is wrong IMO. Most prospective buyers of Porsche sportscars know already  that the cars are very fast in the dry and warm, so that a few seconds here or there wouldn't make much difference.  It is the tricky wet weather characteristics of the Porsche sportscars most prospective buyers are worried about and the recent  test times don't give much reassurance to them.

Unless, Porsche assume that their customers have many cars to choose from depending on the time of year and even the time of  day

--

"Form follows function"

GTlover:

MKSGR:

reginos:

Rossi:

But...
Wet handling (Pirelli P Z Zero) was only 1.46,1, some 16 sec worse than the 997, which may explain some of the good ring times.

I've checked the 997.2 test and the very good wet handling time was done on Pilot Sport Cup "N0".

I cannot imagine that the 991 chassis is inherently worse in the wet compared to the older car.

 

I got my copy of this SportAuto edition only today.

The "wet handling mystery" is no mystery at all...

The asphalt temperature was just about 11°C in case of the 991s - but more like 25-35°C in the Supertests of McLaren, GT4RS 4.0 etc.

Thus, the poor wet handling result is primarily the outcome of the adverse track conditions. No need to worry about the capabilities of the car 

Hi MKSGR,

well - yes and no - do you think the difference of 8 seconds to the 997.2 could be explained by these 10C difference..? not to mention 16 seconds to the 997.1?

Plus - I just looked at an old Sport Auto test on the 997 GT2 - it was done in november 2009 - like the 991 -also in november - and it did a 1:29,7...again huge difference.

If you ask me - Porsche "cheated" a bit on this test - well cheating is maybe not the right word - but the did everything to lower the time in the dry - knowing that it have devastating results in the wet (hoping - nobody would recognise it anyway)

I bet you if you, if you  would put the michelin on the 991 - you would loose 2-3seconds in the dry but gain back these 8seconds to the 997.2..I would have preferred more such an "honest" result.

If I would buy I would certainly refuse to take it with these Pirelli tires..unless I move to dubai or arizona..

I think the result can be explained by the low temperature indeed. Don't look too much at test results from 2009 - the tires have developed a lot since then. Fact is, all current high-performance cars come with these new tires which are more focused on dry-track use 

Many of you are missing the point. Driving in the rain and on wet streets requires caution. This thread began to attack the 991 because its track times on a wet track was a little slower than expected. From that many of you concluded the car was flawed or had inadequate tires. My point is to draw conclusion about a car performance from a test on wet track is misplaced. 

We all agree performance in the rain or wet track is determined by the ability of the driver and tires just as it would in on snow or ice. So why is that relevant to 99% of the buyers and owners of 991 who would never attempt spirited driving in the rain or slick roads?

nberry:

This thread began to attack the 991 because its track times on a wet track was a little slower than expected. From that many of you concluded the car was flawed or had inadequate tires. My point is to draw conclusion about a car performance from a test on wet track is misplaced. 

We all agree performance in the rain or wet track is determined by the ability of the driver and tires just as it would in on snow or ice. So why is that relevant to 99% of the buyers and owners of 991 who would never attempt spirited driving in the rain or slick roads?

Nick,

you are excluding two vital elements here. The grip level and behaviour of a tire is not only related to performance but also to safety. Braking performance, no matter in the dry or in the wet, is not necessarily relevant for performance driving since none of us will deliberately perform an emergency stop in daily traffic. It is important though that the tire does perform well in case you need it. The character of the tire, how it transmits the limit of adhesion, its dependency on temperatures, its hydroplaning performance and the grip difference between dry and wet tarmac does not necessarily lead to faster or more dangerous driving but to an increased safety margin in these conditions. As I said above, most sportscars are comparatively light yet feature wide tires, coupled with performance-oriented weight distribution and suspension setup, all of this can lead to more challenging handling characteristics than necessary or suitable.

Furthermore, the factors deciding about a tire´s performance in dry and wet conditions are quite opposite to each other. The improved dry grip of performance tires comes at the expense of wet performance or longevity. We are not talking about a slight reduction in performance but, due to different depth and pattern of the tread as well as compound, you are sometimes forced to follow the trucks on the right lane of the highway as those tires perform that bad in wet conditions. Hence my question above whether you ever made that experience...

With the wrong tyres you could have a huge accident in the rain even at the relatively low speeds of 100-120 km/h or even during a short burst of acceleration to overtake a slower car. Hydroplaning due to standing water could lift you off and end up in a terrible crash at any highway speed.

Max performance tyres have a tread depth of 7mm when new and much tighter tread pattern for maximum dry road handling. Given these features, some are better in the rain (like Bridgestone RE050A ) than others (like P Zero and the older Pilot Sport with the Rib pattern, before the PS2). The former type is safer for driving in mixed conditions even if it is slower in the dry and warm.

I would choose the former type for strictly road use. If I tracked my car, I would fit an alternative set of appropriate tyres for the purpose. Porsche are wrong fitting their cars with an one-dimensional type of tyre in order to create impressions, especially since they produce a global car that is not differentiated between geographical areas.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

With the wrong tyres you could have a huge accident in the rain even at the relatively low speeds of 100-120 km/h or even during a short burst of acceleration to overtake a slower car. Hydroplaning due to standing water could lift you off and end up in a terrible crash at any highway speed.

Max performance tyres have a tread depth of 7mm when new and much tighter tread pattern for maximum dry road handling. Given these features, some are better in the rain (like Bridgestone RE050A ) than others (like P Zero and the older Pilot Sport with the Rib pattern, before the PS2). The former type is safer for driving in mixed conditions even if it is slower in the dry and warm.

I would choose the former type for strictly road use. If I tracked my car, I would fit an alternative set of appropriate tyres for the purpose. Porsche are wrong fitting their cars with an one-dimensional type of tyre in order to create impressions, especially since they produce a global car that is not differentiated between geographical areas.

100% agreement

I suppose it will take some time before Porsche accepts this..but it will come. Lets talk in 1 year again..maybe by then they have changed the tyers on their cars..this level of grip is dangerous..and this has noting to do on a Porsche 911..

PS: the excuse it was the driver - doesnt count - the same guy drove for example a GT2 in 2009 to a 1:29 time..and thats a GT2 (beast)..which in the wet must already be quite difficult - this is what I know and experienced.

nberry:

Let me repeat; you have to be fucking nuts to drive spirited in rain and wet roads. You are the type of people who I want to avoid while driving.

OMG, I loved driving the E30 BMW in the rain.

Not quite like this, but you get this point.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r51yauLbtFY&feature=fvwrel

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

Atzporsche:

nberry:

Let me repeat; you have to be fucking nuts to drive spirited in rain and wet roads. You are the type of people who I want to avoid while driving.

OMG, I loved driving the E30 BMW in the rain.

Not quite like this, but you get this point.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r51yauLbtFY&feature=fvwrel

I did this in my 997 Carrera GTS Cab...unintentionally  but doing this by purpose on a public street is just insane. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I have always driven my 911s in the rain and snow.  And I love to drive them a quickly and smoothly in as possible in all cases.  In the rain I can get a lot of enjoyment within the speed limit.  The more rain the better.

OF CURSE I use my new Conti DWS all season tires.  The are incredible in the rain and in the cold.  You can leave a standing start with full throttle once the clutch is engaged and that dang 911 rear weight just bolts the rubber to the ground.  Nothing like flat out in the rain without slipping.  Of course, JUST LIKE in the dry there are limits to be respected.  If you are chicken to find them in the rain you will likely not do any better at double the speed in the dry.  Racing on the street in the dry is therefor much more dangerous in many ways.  Racing on the street is never a good idea.  Testing the limits in corners in the wet or dry however is fun - as long as you know what you are doing and are smooth.

Seriously - I love the Conti DWS!  Outstanding in all weather, quiet and very good traction.  Yes, I know they are not N rated.  Neither is my wallet.  It is silly to think that modern tires like the DWS give up much to the N rated tires on the street, especially when conditions are not perfect.  I would love to see the time of my 997.1S at Hockenheim with the DWS - bet I would smoke the 991 with the performance tires in the rain.  I have the skills in the rain to do it too!

Cheers

I totally understand the importance of tires with respect to safety and grip on wet and dry roads. I mentioned that in my post. What I am trying to say is no car manufacturer will equip a car with poor performing tires regardless of road conditions.

What you all are focusing on is how well do they perform in spirited driving and to that I say, especially in wet conditions, is irrelevant. So long as the tires are safe for all driving conditions is all that matters. Outside of that you would only be splitting hairs and very much dependent on a drivers ability.

nberry:

What I am trying to say is no car manufacturer will equip a car with poor performing tires regardless of road conditions. [...] What you all are focusing on is how well do they perform in spirited driving and to that I say, especially in wet conditions, is irrelevant. So long as the tires are safe for all driving conditions is all that matters.

Nick,

that´s what I am trying to tell you since three posts. The wet handling and safety margin of these high-performance tires are significantly reduced. So much that I personally wouldn´t want to use them on my daily driver. We are not splitting hairs, the above mentioned wet handling time is significantly worse than any of its (direct as well as unrelated) competitors, no matter if it is due to the tire itself or the lack of temperature at the time of test. It is somewhat ironic that we are debating about N-rated tires and the drawbacks of allseason tires on these cars when on the other hand the usability of regularly fitted products is sigificantly less versatile.

Sorry Nick, I stick to my above comment that you have never experienced these kind of tires in the rain...

nberry:

What you all are focusing on is how well do they perform in spirited driving and to that I say, especially in wet conditions, is irrelevant. So long as the tires are safe for all driving conditions is all that matters. Outside of that you would only be splitting hairs and very much dependent on a drivers ability.

--

Ferdie, there is a miscommunication here. We seem to be talking past one another when in fact we are in agreement.

FWIW, the very first Porsche driving school in the US at Road Atlanta which I attended had driving instruction using wet roads. 

Atzporsche:

OMG, I loved driving the E30 BMW in the rain.

Not quite like this, but you get this point.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r51yauLbtFY&feature=fvwrel

I "dance" to work like this every rainy day, puts a smile on my face every single time...

...has anyone seen a scan of the Supertest? 

Porker:

Atzporsche:

OMG, I loved driving the E30 BMW in the rain.

Not quite like this, but you get this point.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r51yauLbtFY&feature=fvwrel

I "dance" to work like this every rainy day, puts a smile on my face every single time...

AMEN

My E34 was a gem in the rain too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUNBubr6IJQ

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

I had an E24 (635CSi Euro w/ Close-Ratio 5spd dogleg and LSD) that was great to drive sideways too.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

Boxster Coupe GTS:

...has anyone seen a scan of the Supertest? 

I just scanned it.