Crown

I agree Easy.

I loved the handling and stereing response of the -20mm tradictional shock suspension of my 997.1, and was dissapointed with the PASM on the 997.1, but they improved it on the 997.2 and the bottom line is that if the use it on the GT3 now its got to be good or even better.

The PDCC is not a GT option, it doesn't give an artificial feeling of cornering flat no more than a traditional anti-roll bar, its not like a soft suspension that gives the artificial feeling of riding flat when going over bumps. The PDCC works by adding more resistance to the rollbars when under greater lateral weight transfers so it reduces body roll AND increases steering response... all components of the sporty chartacter we like in the 911. I dont care about semantics of artificial vs traditional, but if a traditional anti-roll bar that is set up in stiffness for an average roll (a compromise for not too stiff in normal driving and not too soft in hard driving) allows for more body roll and makes my steering less direct when I attack a sharp turn driving hard then that car is more GT'ish, not the PDCC one. Sure vehicles with more weight and longer travel suspensions such as the Cayenne and even the Panamera need PDCC more, but people should not get that confused with thinking the PDCC is an option for limos or SUV, like pneumatic suspensions are for example, because we could then say the same thing about automatic transmissions or electronic shocks. PDCC is a SPORT extra. It will be however less noticiable in the 991 as opposed to a Cayenne or Panamera (in which it works very well and since the first gen of PDCC) due to its already stiffer chasis and suspensions, and much lighter weight, so we will have to test it and see the result though.

I'm pretty confident that a stiffer and lighter 991 fitted with PTV, -20mm SPASM, DEM and PDCC will feel much sportier and agile than my stiff and sporty -20mm/997.1. That said, I hold my ultimate opinion until I test one.

--

It is possible that the PDCC is to compensate for the longer wheelbase, to get the siff chassis feeling. In any case, we are given choices to select all the electronic driving aids in order to drive the car faster and safer with ease. Specially for people new to the 911 market.

Carrageous:

Budster:

Rich_NY:

Looks like it doesn't have launch control for the manual as far as I can see on the American site. Anyone else notice this?

 

Manual launch control..? Yes, it's activated by the pedal just next to the brake.

I know, it seemed weird when I saw it announced too but it was in numerous publications.

Here is one example.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/official-first-pics-of-the-2013-porsche-911-991-ar114537.html

"Both models will be offered with either a seven-speed manual gearbox or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF and both featuring launch control."

Just curious what happened.

993Targa:

 Think the bulldog comparison is a very good one. The weak point of the 991 is the part between rear-lights and exhausts, too much plastic in between. Bigger rear-lights, the size of the 997 would have looked better IMO.

 ... maybe they can fix it in the next 10 days ??

Budster:

easy_rider911:

 Hypothesising and speculating what it might be like is just a waste of time IMO.

Isn't that part of the fun of being involved in a forum such as Rennteam, Easy?

Isn't it just as pointless otherwise, to share subjective opinions on anything at all: colours and colour-combinations, options, or whether you like the 991 or not..?

... surely just using the forum to share undisputed facts would be a bit dull?  We wouldn't have had anything on the pre-launch thread at all apart from the spy-shots themselves (with no-one commenting on them)...?

Hey Budster, of course, it's absolutely fine to discuss our subjective opinions on various aspects of the 991 (which is what we have been doing and which, as you said, is one of the reasons why Rennteam exists).

As a caveat to that, I would add that those discussions have more value for other people if they are based on some evidence. So IMO it's better to contribute where one has some objective basis for holding a particular view.

Also, as a side issue, I would mention that Rennteam tries to be informative and reliable. So it's much preferred if people first ask themselves how much value their post will add to the debate before they go ahead and post something. That way, the quality of debate here stays high without being diluted.

When I first joined Rennteam back in Nov 2004, this message came across very clearly from RC and the others Moderators of this forum. And I took this message very much to heart. I later became a Moderator myself and I've tried to adhere to and apply this same principle.

Coming back to the quotation above, I wasn't speaking generally. I was speaking specifically about PDCC. You've partially quoted what I wrote which changes the meaning. I wrote:

"IMO it's simply premature to form judgements on whether PDCC will be good or bad in a 911 until one has actually tried it. Hypothesising and speculating what it might be like is just a waste of time IMO."

None of us has driven a 911 with PDCC yet. How can we form judgements on it without trying it? That was my 1st point.

My 2nd point is more nuanced ... AFAIK PDCC has so far only been available on the Cayenne and Panamera models. They are much larger, much heavier vehicles where the process of cornering flatly involves dealing with the increased weight.

A 911 is much lighter and, as a sports car, it is expected to handle corners like a sports car should. My point is therefore that it is IMO a waste of time hypothesising and speculating what PDCC may be like on a 911 when all we know about PDCC is from the Cayenne and Panamera models.

Essentially, those models pose somewhat different challenges (due to their greater size, increased height, higher centre of gravity and greater weight).

If you really want to know what I suspect about PDCC on a 911, then my educated guess would be this: the benefits of PDCC on a 911 could be smaller than they are for the heavier Cayenne and Panamera. I would expect however that the slightest difference will be noticeable on a 911 so there will be some actual and perceived improvement in stability.

But like I said, this is just an educated guess, nothing more than that. And since it is an educated guess, it could be worthless. So I will reserve my judgement until I actually test drive a 911 with PDCC.

Hope that clarifies my point of view

--

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

the price of the 991s went up 12000$  and the 991 8000$ over here in UAE compared to the 997, not to mention some options are strangely over priced . i think that means i will not be buying a new porsche not because of the price hike but because 911 depreciate alot and i mean alooooooooot over here in UAE and is unwanted as a second hand car .sad but true .

 In Lebanon the price went from $153,000 for a 2011 Carrera S to $172,000 for a 2012 (these are base prices without any extra's; add about $20,000 worth of extra's, and these are only the essentials)... That's almost $20,000 increase in price!!! That's quite a huge price hike... That's a 13% price hike... I'm curious if in other parts of the world price hikes in terms of percentage are the same, ie; 13%...

PureBlue:
I think you missed my point. If you look back at the posts in this thread over the past week or so (from people who haven't written off the 991 before bothering to drive it first), you'll note many positive comments about PDCC - with which I'm not familiar, so I can't express a personal view on it. Given the above, I expressed surprise at the fact that neither ISUK nor Carrara had chosen to include it in their specs.

PDCC = just great. From what i can say with the Cayenne S, when you pass round points, the car sticks to the road just like a carrera. My passanger are always very impressed how fast i take a round points.

 997 GT3,Cayenne S, Cooper S & VW Cross Polo

 nice pics of the 991, thanks. for mine point of view it looks good, now have to see life

 997 GT3,Cayenne S, Cooper S & VW Cross Polo

RRS:

the price of the 991s went up 12000$  and the 991 8000$ over here in UAE compared to the 997, not to mention some options are strangely over priced . i think that means i will not be buying a new porsche not because of the price hike but because 911 depreciate alot and i mean alooooooooot over here in UAE and is unwanted as a second hand car .sad but true .

Misha011:

993Targa:

 Think the bulldog comparison is a very good one. The weak point of the 991 is the part between rear-lights and exhausts, too much plastic in between. Bigger rear-lights, the size of the 997 would have looked better IMO.

 ... maybe they can fix it in the next 10 days ??

 You mean 3.5 years... No way they'd do a significant design change now, but maybe we'll see something like it with a facelift.

 Still think the 993 rear is the best with the large red reflector.

Rich_NY:

Carrageous:

Budster:

Rich_NY:

Looks like it doesn't have launch control for the manual as far as I can see on the American site. Anyone else notice this?

 

Manual launch control..? Yes, it's activated by the pedal just next to the brake.

I know, it seemed weird when I saw it announced too but it was in numerous publications.

Here is one example.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/official-first-pics-of-the-2013-porsche-911-991-ar114537.html

"Both models will be offered with either a seven-speed manual gearbox or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF and both featuring launch control."

Just curious what happened.

Isn't it time you got yourself a !waytag?   www.waytag.com

Isn't it time you got yourself a !waytag?   www.waytag.com

Since the 991 C2S and 997.2 C2S are the same width, I would expect the 991 C4 and C4S to be wider. IMO we just need clarification as to how much extra width there will be. It may or may not be 44mm again.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Budster:

Rich_NY:

Carrageous:

Budster:

Rich_NY:

Looks like it doesn't have launch control for the manual as far as I can see on the American site. Anyone else notice this?

 

Manual launch control..? Yes, it's activated by the pedal just next to the brake.

I know, it seemed weird when I saw it announced too but it was in numerous publications.

Here is one example.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/official-first-pics-of-the-2013-porsche-911-991-ar114537.html

"Both models will be offered with either a seven-speed manual gearbox or the seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic, both made by ZF and both featuring launch control."

Just curious what happened.

 

Then I retract my cheeky response Rich, and defer to a more expert member for an answer too!

I would be surprised if this varied from one country to another.

Launch Control is AFAIK supposed to be included whenever one chooses Sport Chrono Package Plus and AFAIK irrespective whether it is 7 speed manual or 7 speed PDK.

(See page 50 of the 991 brochure).

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Isn't it time you got yourself a !waytag?   www.waytag.com

Budster:
How would it work on a manual? Does it become an automatic for the purposes of the launch? And then what? Do you then decide to override it whenever you depress the clutch? Seems odd that if it could do that, they wouldnt market it as another form of auto box with manual override... I don't understand at all...

Exactly, how does it work? I am a huge fan of manual driving and I've been more than a little upset that the autos have been turning in better numbers as of late. One of the reasons is this (gimmick) launch control and while I know it isn't really gonna make that much of a difference in my actual driving life I am still pleased that it is (was supposed) coming to the manual.

Side note: As cheeky as your response was Budster, it was both funny and appropriate since you didn't know they had announced launch control for the manual.

my 997 gt2 has launch control. put in first gear, fully depress clutch and gaspedal and just sidestep the clutch.....voila

--
Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

easy_rider911:

Since the 991 C2S and 997.2 C2S are the same width, I would expect the 991 C4 and C4S to be wider. IMO we just need clarification as to how much extra width there will be. It may or may not be 44mm again.

 The 997 in the above image is a C4S.

And now thinking about it, as pretty as the 991 is, no WAY I'd take one of them over something like this!

While I tend to agree with your reasoning, I'd never take a 993 RS, it's just a heavier 964 RS imho...

Regarding old-school "wannahave" Porsches, nothing beats the 964 3.8 Clubsport for me personally (except for the even more exotic 2.8 RSR)

I'd leave any 991 for this in a heartbeat, apologies for the OT!

Porker:

While I tend to agree with your reasoning, I'd never take a 993 RS, it's just a heavier 964 RS imho...

Regarding old-school "wannahave" Porsches, nothing beats the 964 3.8 Clubsport for me personally (except for the even more exotic 2.8 RSR)

I'd leave any 991 for this in a heartbeat, apologies for the OT!

Word! although, in a perfect world, I'd have one of each.
 

"People ignore design that ignores people."

 This doesn't look good, does it? Blank buttons are so yesterday..shame.

Morgan Aero 8

Carrageous:

Porker:

While I tend to agree with your reasoning, I'd never take a 993 RS, it's just a heavier 964 RS imho...

Regarding old-school "wannahave" Porsches, nothing beats the 964 3.8 Clubsport for me personally (except for the even more exotic 2.8 RSR)

I'd leave any 991 for this in a heartbeat, apologies for the OT!

Word! although, in a perfect world, I'd have one of each.

+2   What an incredible garage that would be!

spudgun:

 This doesn't look good, does it? Blank buttons are so yesterday..shame.

Totally agree. I'd be pretty annoyed if I spent £80k+ to end up with a whole load of blank plastic switches that are exactly where you look all the time. 

Guess someone can produce some cheap transfers to stick some fake options there, like 'Ejector Seat', 'Grenade Launcher' and 'Oil Slick'........... or for some drivers 'Pipe', 'Slippers' and 'Smoking Jacket'..... :)

[Post edited by a Rennteam Moderator]

Yes, you are correct, the Carrera is not available with PDCC. And the reason they went down to a 3.4 was mainly for efficiency purposes, and a 3.6 liter engine just wasn't necessary for adequate power. The reason the 3.8 remained was because it was perfect for making 400hp. 

And about the press release, the people who write them aren't engineers or test drivers. Usually they're with marketing, and use a lot of filler words to get their point across, and sometimes even make typos. I've seen one press release mention a GT2 RS 4.0! 

I'm not saying the people who write them are idiots at all, because I enjoy every single one of them and think the writers make the products come across very well.

I acknowledge what you say Porsche said on their site, and trust me, the engineers didn't write that, it was probably some marketing person using filler words.

Downsizing is for maximum efficiency.

Morgan Aero 8