Crown

It was s great episode!!

-MP4 test.

-New Range Evoque tested at Death Valley.

-Vettel driving the reasonably priced car.

-Bought 96/BMW-850CI and 02/MB-600CL for 7000 each

-

I really enjoyed last night's show too

I can't believe how quick the McLaren was around the track ... unreal speed.

So JC felt it lacked 'fizz' or 'fun'. But one can't argue with a nearly 3 seconds less lap time. (If I recall correctly, the 458 Italia was 1 min 19 secs and the MP4-12C was 1 min 16.2 secs).

Death Valley looked amazing ...

Vettel quickest ... no surprise there ... he didn't look quick ... he just looked so smooth but drove a perfectly tidy line ... very good driving indeed.

As for the UK used car market, it's amazing what kind of bargains one can pick up nowadays ... depreciation is the main killer factor.

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

 I've got to say that I was very disappointed by Clarkson's review of the MP4. I realise that the last few seasons have consisted of pretty much 80% show and 20% substance, but this has sunken to new lows. The only piece of insight he had to offer was that it wasn't as much fun as the 458 - everything else he said was a rehash from the McLaren marketing department. Nowhere near as informative as the 5th Gear review.

But absolutely no argument about the laptime - it was  stunning!  

The rest of the show was very entertaining, especially Vettel. He seems to be a really cool and pleasant guy. 

I was surprised by the off-road capability of the new Range considering its rather puny engine. 

easy_rider911:

As for the UK used car market, it's amazing what kind of bargains one can pick up nowadays ... depreciation is the main killer factor.

The Bentley Turbo R looked really nice.

Some of the cars were mildly used like the 850. The mx8 is almost  new!
 

assman!!!:

 I've got to say that I was very disappointed by Clarkson's review of the MP4. I realise that the last few seasons have consisted of pretty much 80% show and 20% substance, but this has sunken to new lows. The only piece of insight he had to offer was that it wasn't as much fun as the 458 - everything else he said was a rehash from the McLaren marketing department. 

Bland and not delivered with much conviction. 

I never expect any real, objective insights from Clarkson, yet he still managed to disappoint. 

fritz

I think the only interesting observation he made was that the ride comfort is very good - with his illustration of how well it rides the kerb at a corner on the TG track.

I couldn't help but feel that JC felt he couldn't criticise the MP4 too much (apart from it lacking fun, passion and soul) since it is a British car and he didn't want to look unpatriotic.

Hence I too thought that he said what he said without much conviction ...

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

I think the only interesting observation he made was that the ride comfort is very good - with his illustration of how well it rides the kerb at a corner on the TG track.

I couldn't help but feel that JC felt he couldn't criticise the MP4 too much (apart from it lacking fun, passion and soul) since it is a British car and he didn't want to look unpatriotic.

Hence I too thought that he said what he said without much conviction ...

 Yup, agree with you 100%. Which is a shame really, as he's supposed to be the person that has the most no holds barred approach to moto journalism. Looks like he really pussied out, TBH. Props to Tiff and Plato for telling it straight up.

Great to see the McLaren get a positive review from a patriotic viewpoint but I doubt many people are going to be wholly convinced that the time set is representative after Fifth Gear testing on the same track and the 12C being 0.1 second behind the 458.

I find it amusing that the McLaren fans were harping on, on almost every forum, about Ferrari supplying the press with 458 ringers yet when the 12C suddenly confounds all of the other track test times achieved by Car, Evo, Fith Gear etc they are happy to put this new found speed down to it being driven properly

I thought Seb Vettel came across extremely well as a very down to earth and likeable guy. He had no ego and had a great sense of humour. The photo of him as a child meeting Michael Schumaker in 1995 kind of makes it weird now watching them race in F1. MS must feel old when he sees that pic.

There's another key detail that one shouldn't overlook here ...

At one point in the show, JC says that the car has a certain change that will feature on the car delivered to customers (and which features on the car driven by the Stig) but which did not feature on the car driven by JC.

This explains why the McLaren segment didn't get broadcast 1 week ago when it was supposed to be shown. JC had already taped his own McLaren segment but the Stig laps must have been taped during the past week only with this new revision to the car. Clearly, McLaren wanted to get the best lap time and asked for the broadcast to be postponed until after the revision was made.

I think this explains the time difference partially ...

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

There's another key detail that one shouldn't overlook here ...

At one point in the show, JC says that the car has a certain change that will feature on the car delivered to customers (and which features on the car driven by the Stig) but which did not feature on the car driven by JC.

 

I was surprised when i heard him saying that. He sounded a bit as if he was forced to mention that.

Who knew that Vettel is such a cool guy.

Perhaps the more pertinent question for McLaren buyers should be if this particular 12C was so fast why did McLaren give it to Car magazine for their road test section but then substitute it with a different car for the Rockingham track test when Car actually said it was perfectly representative of the production cars?? That seems very odd to me. Here is the link to Car's gallery of their test showing this car - RX60 GTU - on the road section and the second car - RX11 OFH - at Rockingham. http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Video/S...st-wallpapers/

Apparently the Top Gear test was filmed last week so just how much work has been done to this particular car to give it the spectacular lap time it achieved since it was not deemed suitable for the Rockingham track test?? Now....... who mentioned ringers?

At least the wheel nuts on this McLaren managed to stay on for the full duration of the test though

ISUK:

 

Apparently the Top Gear test was filmed last week so just how much work has been done to this particular car to give it the spectacular lap time it achieved since it was not deemed suitable for the Rockingham track test?? Now....... who mentioned ringers?

 

Exactly!! Where's team Chris Harris
 

Mr Harris has been tweeting with his mate Jason Plato from Fifth Gear.

 "JC may be a great wordsmith, however he wouldn't know a great handling car if it hit him in the face." 

Quote of the year! 

Nice one - Jason Plato can definitely drive ... if I'm not mistaken he is the reigning British Touring Car Champion, is he not?

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

...and so it looks like the Stig can as well.

- "I see dead pixels..."
- “When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

The curent Stig is the best Stig so far IMvHO. Obviously from a good crop of Stigs ... :)

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

 ISUK i really hope I am able to get the MP4 and then we can maybe take your 458 as well somewhere and see the real difference between stock customer cars..

The changes that mclaren did are software changes and have to do with throttle/ steering response, exhaust sound, and i think all traction control thresholds. The car that did that lap did not have those changes but not even sure if it makes much difference as the above are just to enhance a bit the feeling of the car, doubt they make it any faster on a lap time.

To get some facts right top gear actually tested the car back in feb and it was actually miles faster on that track from the 458. But they insisted that they only report a lap on a "production" vehicle. Hence the lap he did was 1.161 and not even lower. The 3-4 sec difference to the 458 was know from mclaren people from 6 months ago.

Now to be fair the 458 should be able to do better than 1.191 with SS tires but maybe 1 sec better. The MP4 is faster on a straight line and on the track if we compare stock cars.

Mr Plato was trying to drift the car from corner entry (as he does with all cars) and was really getting it out of shape. I dont know if the car indeed had a problem (I heard it did, mainly from what  5th Gear did to it) but you certainly cant drive this car like this with the brake steer. And you know how I  know this? I actually tried this myself on the MP4 at Dunsfold, did not need Plato to tell me this. Now on that day we had an owner of scud, enzo, 458, GTO that drove the car as well and after his 7-8 laps came out and said that the cornering speed and power was nowhere near the ferraris.

The issue with this car is not its speed on a track. But its clinical way of delivering it. 

PS. Mclaren has a lot of PP7, PP8... PP11 test mules going around simultaneously. The car they were driving at TG was actually there on the day I test drove the MP4. There is nothing sinister there.

 I don't think the Top Gear test on the MP4 is a fair comparison point for the 458 for the simple fact that the MP4 was tested and tweeked at that very track. Take them both for a lap at Fiorano with the same driver and I'm sure the 458 will be faster. 

 If the separation of the two cars is one has passion and the other is efficient and unemotional, which would one prefer? Porsche owners be careful.

easy_rider911:

I couldn't help but feel that JC felt he couldn't criticise the MP4 too much (apart from it lacking fun, passion and soul) since it is a British car and he didn't want to look unpatriotic.

Hence I too thought that he said what he said without much conviction ...

nberry:

 If the separation of the two cars is one has passion and the other is efficient and unemotional, which would one prefer? Porsche owners be careful.

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

 If the separation of the two cars is one has passion and the other is efficient and unemotional, which would one prefer? Porsche owners be careful.

 

Porsche owners don't have to choose between either or ;)

Well said.

GT,

There are some guys on Pistonheads who want to get involved in their own test so you may want to hook up with them.

I personally couldn't care less about the lap time on Top Gear but have been annoyed by the endless suggestions about Ferrari providing ringers based upon ONE article by Chris Harris which just happened to single them out but mentioned that it was widespread. It's this hypocracy over "ringers" that amazes me from McLaren supporters. When the 12C lost not only to the 458 but the Gallardo and 911 in Car's test it was only Ferrari who had provided a ringer in their eyes. When the 12C lost the excuses for them being pre-production cars were trotted out, then the breakdowns were blamed, then they "they are being driven incorrectly" was cited as a reason for the poor lap times. Now that the 12C posts an incredible time at Dunsold we are supposed to ignore all the other test results and believe this one as being trully representative 

When have you ever known magazine journalists and TV presenters to start getting publically embroiled in arguements over who is providing the correct info for any other car launch??

It's frankly pathetic for the launch of such an important car and comes on top of Woking's stupid stunt to announce their car to the World media on the same day that Ferrari launched the 458. This is taking the F1 spat simply too far IMHO and has been a PR disaster for McLaren. We should be celebrating the launch of a great British car at present but instead it has opened a whole can of worms into misrepresentation and potential cheating. For a company that said it's target audience was not Ferrari owners it is certainly going all out to try to beat the 458 which is surprising when they said they are looking to convert Porsche/Audi R8 customers to their brand. They are now even getting bad PR for their locked door showroom policy in London which is evidently another silly PR ploy to try and make the car appear exclusive. Any Ferrari, Lamborghini or Porsche showrooms I deal with let any member of the public in to view the cars. It's what generates interest and future business. McLaren are using the stuffy restricted access showroom model that was ditched by all of these brands a long, long time ago.

I simply can't believe that several very experienced racing drivers have all now driven the 12C in comparison tests and not gone faster in it than the 458. They had McLaren support staff to tell them how to drive it for best effect and plenty of time to adjust to this style. Roger Green in EVO makes it pretty clear he adopted a totally different style in the 12C to the 458. On top of that you have all of these drivers saying the 458 is the more enjoyable car and the one they'd buy.

If this particular car did the lap test for Top Gear back in February as you say and it produced these startling results, why then did McLaren give the same car to Car magazine for their road test but pull it for the track test and substitute it with the one that suffered the hydraulic leak?? If this example was super quick as the Dunsfold time suggests it should have romped around Rockingham as well.... or Bedford for that matter. This smacks of track set up optimisation by McLaren. Top Gear figures - though worthless due to the unscientific nature: no record of tyre types fitted, cars weighed, fuel loads on board, weather conditions, different Stigs etc - are seen by a huge world wide audience so this is the big one from a marketing standpoint.

It really seems like McLaren simply were not ready for the launch with their factory not on stream and no production cars used in any of these tests. They have subsequently tried to pacify customers by saying they were pressured into meeting copy deadlines etc by the various magazines. Your claim of a February date for this Top Gear track test turns that excuse on it's head as the lap time shows the car was a winner months before the other tests or, and more likely IMHO, proves that this particular car was optimised for Dunsfold.

ISUK:

GT,

There are some guys on Pistonheads who want to get involved in their own test so you may want to hook up with them.

I personally couldn't care less about the lap time on Top Gear but have been annoyed by the endless suggestions about Ferrari providing ringers based upon ONE article by Chris Harris which just happened to single them out but mentioned that it was widespread. It's this hypocracy over "ringers" that amazes me from McLaren supporters. When the 12C lost not only to the 458 but the Gallardo and 911 in Car's test it was only Ferrari who had provided a ringer in their eyes. When the 12C lost the excuses for them being pre-production cars were trotted out, then the breakdowns were blamed, then they "they are being driven incorrectly" was cited as a reason for the poor lap times. Now that the 12C posts an incredible time at Dunsold we are supposed to ignore all the other test results and believe this one as being trully representative 

 Iain,

If I had a 458 sitting in my garage happily, I wouldn't care less for what some people from an internet forum think about Ferrari's ringer cars. Who cares what they think as long as 458 is a brilliant performer. It is the best car in its class. Is it the fastest? It depends on where you drive  

So when is the 458 spider coming? Have you placed an order for spider or will you get the Scuderia version of 458?

ONUR

11 M3 Coupe AW

09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

So... the McLaren is the technically better car, the Ferrari the emotionally better one. I, for one, liked Clarkson´s review of the MP4 (and the stunning pictures of Death Valley in this episode) and sensed quite some resentment against it.

Very curious how the whole story develops and customers will appreciate the car. I do know quite a few people who appreciate potent sportscars but would prefer some considerable comfort and a setup that an average driver can handle. The only one that came close was the SLR, although I always assumed it was Mercedes´ input to make the car more accessible on a daily basis.

pride355:

 Iain,

If I had a 458 sitting in my garage happily, I wouldn't care less for what some people from an internet forum think about Ferrari's ringer cars. Who cares what they think as long as 458 is a brilliant performer. It is the best car in its class. Is it the fastest? It depends on where you drive  

So when is the 458 spider coming? Have you placed an order for spider or will you get the Scuderia version of 458?

Onur,

I couldn't agree more. There will always be something quicker out there as the crown is handed on frequently these days due to the sheer volume of new cars being launched.

To be perfectly honest I get as much, if not more, pleasure driving my Dino as it is more involving, still reasonably quick and generates a lot more positive interest from people. I still enjoy the new cars but there is less scope to use their power.

I put my deposit down for the 458 spider earlier this year. The first UK cars will probably arrive in June next year and I hope to get mine by July. I've got my name down for a 458 Scuderia which should appear a year after the spider debuts.

Mclaren's approach to the whole thing was pretty amateur and arrogant for sure. They based a lot of their marketing vs the 458, not my cup of tea and very confrontational.  Also re the tests they were new to this game and they paid for it. They brought mules with 60k miles and P zeros to compete in those first tests and they paid for their arrogance (or ignorance).

I was not sure about the 458 being a ringer but after seeing those drag races with the turbo S I have very little doubt that those 3 new press 458 cars had more power (and also less weight). The 458 is a better looking car and (a lot) more fun car to drive. The mp4 is more comfortable, easier to drive and a lot quicker (we ll have the chance to see that in the future in more tests).

The rest are not that relevant I think. Personally after what I have seen the main reason for me to prefer the MP4 over the 458 would be the possibilty to make it as fast as my current car (ie turbocharged etc). The rest is a bit of a tie depending on one's priorities. Looks vs functionality, speed vs fun, torque vs engine sound etc etc