Crown

You and I both -Blueflame

I look forward to the day when when we exchange posts saying that we are off to Le Mans and should we meet up.

Well written and sad text, thanks Spyderidol.

Regarding the 997's competitiveness, at the Nürburgring 24h, the Manthey 997 RSR and now GT3-R was -until last year at least- king of the pack. Obviously the regulations there are now GT3-based instead of Le Mans' GT2 regs, but nevertheless the competition is as fierce as it is here but the 997 GT3-R seems to manage fine. Manthey was blisteringly quick last year until they got caught out.

Any insights on that? Maybe just related to those waivers at Le Mans?

 If I could ask for one thing, I would ask to once again witness the rebirth of this once great and all conquering marque (that even got rules changed and actually killed off entire series) and watch it achieve again the dizzy heights that was once such familiar territory to it.

Life is made of pipe-dreams.

Couldn't agree more.  Let's hope PAG reads this and takes note.
 

Porker:

Well written and sad text, thanks Spyderidol.

Regarding the 997's competitiveness, at the Nürburgring 24h, the Manthey 997 RSR and now GT3-R was -until last year at least- king of the pack. Obviously the regulations there are now GT3-based instead of Le Mans' GT2 regs, but nevertheless the competition is as fierce as it is here but the 997 GT3-R seems to manage fine. Manthey was blisteringly quick last year until they got caught out.

Any insights on that? Maybe just related to those waivers at Le Mans?

I have a niggling feeling that the BMW's are going to blow all out the water (those restricors are just huge in comparison) . God! I hope I am wrong.

reginos:

Motorsport goes in cycles like other forms of sport. IMO the 997 Motorsport models have finished their cycle after a very illustrious career. The field is more up to date now with the 458s and the BMWs whilst Porsche has reached a plateau in its development. Other new entrants like Aston and Lotus are even lower than Porsche with newer models.

In the GTE A they still have a good chance.

Why haven't Porsche run a GT Hybrid?  At least they could win a category and generate some interest, in this way. Are there no rules for Hybrids at the 24H du Mans

No Hybrids allowed for the GT classes. (there is actually a Hybrid racing in the LMP classes  - so even in that area Porsche has missed the boat - although I am not sure that that is the path to take).

This is another complete mystery. Why so much fan-fare over the 918 RSR (why go to the expense and time to build a car that does not fit into any current racing category) - and now there is simply no news at all concerning this car.

We know for instance, that pit 56 (traditionally reserved for invitations from the ACO for innovative designs) will go to the Delta wing concept car in 2012. So where does the 918 fit in then?

Lets see what happens to the rules with the new World Endurance Championship/Cup that is coming next year. This is really a major shake-up of sportscar racing. What decisions will Porsche make? Will they opt to sit it out once again?

The next months are going to be interesting, the only thing is I'm getting so tired of hoping and praying only to be bitterly disappointed in the end. Maybe I'll give it one more try.

reginos:

Why haven't Porsche run a GT Hybrid?  At least they could win a category and generate some interest, in this way. Are there no rules for Hybrids at the 24H du Mans?
 

Does anyone know why Porsche isn't running the GT3 R Hybrid at Le Mans?  I was under the impression that they were going to ask the ACO for a dispensation to run in a special (hybrid) class this year.

Would have been nice to see the 918 RSR competing as well, but I assume this is not yet fully developed.  However, the GT3 R Hybrid - which won at the Nurburgring a couple of weeks ago - must be ready to compete?

Spyderidol:

No Hybrids allowed for the GT classes. (there is actually a Hybrid racing in the LMP classes  - so even in that area Porsche has missed the boat - although I am not sure that that is the path to take).

I thought there was a GTH class like in ALMS for experimental cars. Not the best path but better than nothing. We have to rely on the Amateur class now

"Form follows function"

"Porsche’s head of motorsport, Hartmut Kristen, praised the teams’ professional preparations for the race. “They all worked hard to find an optimal set-up. Taking the Balance of Performance into account, the teams made the most out of what was possible.” 

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Spyderidol:

No Hybrids allowed for the GT classes. (there is actually a Hybrid racing in the LMP classes  - so even in that area Porsche has missed the boat - although I am not sure that that is the path to take).

I thought there was a GTH class like in ALMS for experimental cars. Not the best path but better than nothing. We have to rely on the Amateur class now

 I think anything is possible with the ACO. God God! if one takes the example of the BMW, then the Hybrid shouldn't even require another class!!

(also remember that the Hybrid is actually a GT3 car)

It all a question of money...and influence. Both of which I suspect Porsche has little now-a-days.

reginos:

"Porsche’s head of motorsport, Hartmut Kristen, praised the teams’ professional preparations for the race. “They all worked hard to find an optimal set-up. Taking the Balance of Performance into account, the teams made the most out of what was possible.” 

 

 

 Hmm...telling isn't it?

blueflame:

Spyderidol:

Well ,Qualifying is over.

It continues to be so sad to see a marque that once inspired fear and respect in the opposition reduced to just another runner. The press  can only comment on the artwork of the cars and occasionally on the great driver line-up. The cars themselves are rarely ever mentioned. There is very little to comment on. It's like watching a once young and brave gladiator now reduced to limping around the circus maximus trying desperately not to get eaten by the creatures that  have been created and developed by the other newer Caesars. Perhaps the price to pay of a strategy that focuses mainly on short-term balance sheet results? Some will say that it is to be expected as its the end of a production model and another is coming soon. Hmm. Seems a reasonable argument. - But then one looks at Ferrari and how they managed to keep the 430 very competitive (still is) whilst they introduced a racing version of the 458 in the same year that the road version was introduced. Not only have they kept Ferrari motorsport reputation intact (and the brand image flying in motorsports) they have also cornered the market as privateers are lined up to buy the 458 and Micheletto cant build them fast enough.

I sit here and reflect with much sadness on my youth when I could not wait for my dad to receive the Christophrus so that I could marvel (and dream) at the pages and pages of motorsport articles and  action pictures of the latest 908,917, Moby Dick or what ever the flavor of the current period. Today the magazine is littered with travel articles and /or features on the latest special edition that this once great motorsports marque is peddling.

Today I am sad and disappointed. Tomorrow maybe a better day. Unfortunately , from where I am sitting, the future does not look at all promising. If I could ask for one thing, I would ask to once again witness the rebirth of this once great and all conquering marque (that even got rules changed and actually killed off entire series) and watch it achieve again the dizzy heights that was once such familiar territory to it.

Life is made of pipe-dreams.

 

 

Well written !!!

Since 1998 I ´m waiting with a trip to the race, because Porsche does not have a car for P1.

Looks like I have to wait some more years...

Blueflame

+1  A fine post describing the unfolding tragedy.

Sadly, owned by VW, Porsche must now do what it is told. Those days of pushing boundaries seem to me to be well and truly over.

Wendelin Wiedeking's folly of trying to acquire VW and of engaging in derivatives trading (when Porsche for a brief period resembled a hedge fund more than a car manufacturer) has come at a high price. It has cost Porsche its independence - the freedom to decide its own future.

RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

Sadly, owned by VW, Porsche must now do what it is told. Those days of pushing boundaries seem to me to be well and truly over.

Wendelin Wiedeking's folly of trying to acquire VW and of engaging in derivatives trading (when Porsche for a brief period resembled a hedge fund more than a car manufacturer) has come at a high price. It has cost Porsche its independence - the freedom to decide its own future.

IMO Porsche is much better off with VW than alone.

Independence is a good thing if you have the size and financial ability which Porsche never had. Porsche  was almost bankrupt in the early 90s and the profitability and value of the company under WW were not real, as it was shown afterwards. Alone, Porsche might not have been able to run even the current GT motorsport programs in the recent economic climate. Their major cash earners Cayenne and Panamera exist thanks to VW. I don't think a Porsche limousine or a diesel would have been possible without VW. The last time Porsche tried to make a 4 door car alone in the late 80s, almost went bankrupt.

The VW Group current motorsport programs have been planned some time ago when Porsche was not in the family. The future will show how the Porsche Motorsport activities will be integrated and rationalized into the overall VW Group. All VW companies engage in motorsport, from SEAT and Skoda to Lamborghini (recently) and obviously in time Porsche will have their share in the VW motorsport ethos, in the most appropriate way.

"Form follows function"

Before attempting to acquire VW, PAG was sitting on billions of Euros. BUt WW bit off more than he could chew so even Porsche couldn't afford the acquisition in the end.

Sure, the Boxster and later the Cayenne saved PAG but PAG could have stayed independent from a financial point of view AFAIK.

The real problem was compliance with future EU emissions rules ... averaging below a certain CO2 limit was always going to be tough without having small, low CO2 cars to sell.

RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

Before attempting to acquire VW, PAG was sitting on billions of Euros. BUt WW bit off more than he could chew so even Porsche couldn't afford the acquisition in the end.

Sure, the Boxster and later the Cayenne saved PAG but PAG could have stayed independent from a financial point of view AFAIK.

The real problem was compliance with future EU emissions rules ... averaging below a certain CO2 limit was always going to be tough without having small, low CO2 cars to sell.

The billions of Euros originated mainly from dividends and revaluations from the holding of VW shares (which were acquired using huge bank loans), not from the sale of automobiles. Below the surface and the behind facade that WW fabricated there was a straggling, miniscule manufacturer. An ant who thought was an elephant.

VW have given financial stability, guaranteed sourcing of crucial engines and components and a chance of spreading future emissions and fuel consumption to overcome the ever-stringent regulations. All these give a peace of mind to engineers to work productively.

BTW the take-over is not legally complete as yet. There are plenty of legal obstacles still to overcome, emanating from WW's and HH's  financial alchemies.

--

"Form follows function"

Just a small point.. Porsche actually makes money out of their motorsport program. (for the time being) A business model that is being copied by Ferrari .The difference is that Ferrari have made sure that their product is fresh and competitive. They are are not restricted to one model so if and when for example, the 430 started to look like it was reaching its maximum development, they were easily able to switch to a new model.

This strategy is fine as long as you are willing to invest (heavily) from time to time in order to guarantee that your product is the best out there. Customers that want to go racing , want a product that can guarantee them success.

Sitting back and milking the old cash-cow is not an option that will guarantee you success for long periods of time.

Do you have any knowledge about when and how development of the racing variant actually starts? Are they testing the future 991 GT3 RSR/R simultaneously with the streetcar, or does development start after launch?

 Porker - For GTE - There must be a street version of the car that they want to homologate  the race car against. For example: the homologation car for the RSR/R is the GT3 RS.

Given the above, I wouldn't think that they have started on the RSR unless they have started on the 991 GT3  (or GT3 RS) 

Also -  If the rumors are correct and the future GT3  receives the 9A1 engine , how are they going to get around the dry sump issue.

Also -What about the 918 program? 

Better still - How about the 918 RSR without the Hybrid system? -It would make a much better GTE product.

At this point, we don't even know if there will be a 991 RSR/R. We assume so, but......will it be competitive?

  www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92167

Well - it's all over for another whole year.

The Porsche's did very well - all things considered. They were clearly disadvantaged by the "Balance of Performance" (BoP) instituted by the ACO.

I must say right off the bat, that I am on principle, against the Balance of Performance (BoP)

Although the notion that an "Independent body" responsible for ensuring that all the cars in a certain class have more-or-less equal performance may sound like a good idea...to some, I find the whole notion disturbing and unfortunate.

The problem is that "independent bodies" are always subjected to other financial, marketing, national or strategic interests that often collide with those of a manufacturer or team or brand.

Not having control of how well your car can perform under given set of rules seems to me, a very dangerous scenario.

I have never been a "Big Brother" type of guy.

May Le Mans 2012 bring us better things!

It wasn't desastrous indeed. Sad for the Prospeed team, they looked good for a podium finish until they had a leak in their cooling system (I think). All in all a very enjoyable race, I wish Eurosport gave a little more attention to the GTE-class than is currently the case though.

Thanks for your insights throughout this year's Le Mans!

@ Porker - I was very impressed with ProSpeed. They were doing so well until they had problems. Holzer was outstanding! (Goosens and Jaap kept up their share of the bargain too)

Flying Lizards were a bit of a let down. They ran in to problems during practice and qualy, and never managed to get to grips with the set-up of the car.

Anyway - It's always my favorite time of the year, and so I am now looking forward to next year. (although I think we might have to wait for 2013 to really get excited)

PureBlue:

 If I could ask for one thing, I would ask to once again witness the rebirth of this once great and all conquering marque (that even got rules changed and actually killed off entire series) and watch it achieve again the dizzy heights that was once such familiar territory to it.

Life is made of pipe-dreams.

Couldn't agree more.  Let's hope PAG reads this and takes note.
 

Amen to that

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

Oh and a big thank you to the Kronos team with the V12 Lola Aston-Martin to remind us what Le Mans sounded like!

What an epic race...! I am aware that most of you guys around here focus on the GTE class but the battle between Audi and Peugeot was simply stunning. Interesting to note that all competing Audi drivers have won Le Mans at least once. One could see that they were driving on the edge constantly, a 16 second difference between the winner and second-placed car is... did I say it before... epic! Massive shunts, hope that Horst Felbermayr is not seriously injured.

Haven´t heard much about the GTE class so far, trying to recapture the details in next few days.

Great video, even if it is not a Porsche:

This is a really stupid overtake - that could have gone very bad for all 3....