Crown

KresoF1:

I heard also some wild dreams rumors about MP4-12C Ring time. We will see...

 

Just bare in mind Ring times for following sportscars on the market(Sport Auto Ring times):

Ferrari 458 Italia 7.38min

Mercedes SLS AMG 7.40min

Porsche 997.2 Turbo S 7.44min

All with normal street tires. So, what can we expect form 991 Turbo for example? 10s-12s better Ring time with street tires-max!

...AND we all need to come down all the talk about MP4-12C. All we know is rumors released by McLaren. First real tests from NON UK car press will gives us some merrit. For God sake car is still NOT even on the market yet.

 X2, a nice dose of reality and real expectations 

X3  

KresoF1:

I heard also some wild dreams rumors about MP4-12C Ring time. We will see...

 

Just bare in mind Ring times for following sportscars on the market(Sport Auto Ring times):

Ferrari 458 Italia 7.38min

Mercedes SLS AMG 7.40min

Porsche 997.2 Turbo S 7.44min

All with normal street tires. So, what can we expect form 991 Turbo for example? 10s-12s better Ring time with street tires-max!

...AND we all need to come down all the talk about MP4-12C. All we know is rumors released by McLaren. First real tests from NON UK car press will gives us some merrit. For God sake car is still NOT even on the market yet.

Hi Kreso,

..couldnt have said it better..some people are still dreamers here..the Mclaren 7:00, or the 918 7:00..no way..never..by the way, the 918 due to ist excessive weight of the electric power etc would be the wrong answer to the Mclaren anyway...

If the Mclaren can do 7:00..that would be 38sec faster than a 458 - that is is completely new car...and all that for the same price??? Come one guys..be a bit more realistic...

Kreso:you forgot to mention:

997GT2:7:33

997 GT3RS: 7:33

Ah, have you read the latetst interview in christophorus, the new boss of Porsche said "NBR lap times will have to play a less importance figure/element  in the future..in the future more C02, energy consumptiuon etc will be more important"

He is right - to a cerain degree its unfortunate..bit it will come this way..believe it or not..

 Guys, you do understand that the 918 never actually went around the 'Ring? It was just a simulated/estimated time, and that was with the concept car. The production car I bet will be much faster. But, 7:20 for a 991 C2S... Keep dreaming, because that won't happen any time soon. I guess that the 991 C2S will do it in about 7:40.

of course I know that the 918 went not around the ring..it doesnt exist yet..its more a simulation..

yes, 7;40 for a 991S.somehow maybe realistic...

But again, the 918 has not si much more power than a C-GT, its not really lighter either...so where should it take another 20s..

By the way, my memory says that Porsche said: NBR time will be around 7:30...an not UNDER...if it can be much quicker than they would have said: UNDER 7:20, or UNDER 7:15..because if it were possible they would say it now in order to get the sales done..

I reckon 918 will be improved in suspension, downforce, gearbox and traction (AWD system) .

For it's price i hope it will be as close to 7:00 flat as possible...

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

What is the correct NBR time? There is no universally accepted time for any given car because the car in order to go round the circuit it needs a driver. And depending who drives  you get a different figure.

The official manufacturers' time is never equaled by SA's driver and there is always the controversy of who is correct or rather who is more competent with the given car. The Nissan GT-R time of driver Suzuki was never equaled and I'm sure the GT2RS 7:18 will not be verified by anyone outside the factory.

Other factors that come to play are tyres, temperatures, a new spread of tarmac somewhere and even the eternal suspicion of cheating with special parts etc etc. And if two cars are near or equal the matter of price then enters the equation.

Even if a group of competing cars were gathered on the same day and all driven by a single driver, the result could be in dispute depending on the driver's experience with which type or brand of car.

In conclusion these times are a big publicity stand without the chance of being proven right beyond doubt, and as such they are used by manufacturers in their marketing in the safe knowledge that no one could disprove them. You are as fast as you claim to be, sort of attitude.

Any manufacturers' claim could be believed or not , depending on every enthusiast's allegiance and fancy to a brand.

--

"Form follows function"

 I wouldn't doubt the GT2 RS's time at all. Walter ran a 997.1 based GT2 RS prototype around the 'Ring in 7:29 with traffic.

About the 918, as atzporsche said, it's just a concept car. I doubt the Carrera GT concept would come anywhere close to the production car's time. The production car will be lighter, have a bigger and more powerful engine, more torque, the next generation PDK gearbox, better aero, new suspension, almost everything will be new except for the general concept of the car.

Carrara:

 I wouldn't doubt the GT2 RS's time at all. Walter ran a 997.1 based GT2 RS prototype around the 'Ring in 7:29 with traffic.

About the 918, as atzporsche said, it's just a concept car. I doubt the Carrera GT concept would come anywhere close to the production car's time. The production car will be lighter, have a bigger and more powerful engine, more torque, the next generation PDK gearbox, better aero, new suspension, almost everything will be new except for the general concept of the car.

Yes you maybe right, but you forget that with any car and any race track, after a certain level it will be very difficult to achieve more. What Im trying to say, that at the NBR the 7:30 is since a few year a magial barrier, only a few cars are below that ..and just look at the 458..brand new car and still in the end far away.

Geting from 8:30 to 8:00 min for example would be a lot easier and cheaper to do than from 8:00 to 7:30..please bear also in mind that we are still talking about road cars here..so they need to be driveable ..

By the way, I do not thing that te 918 will have other power or weight figures than the ones already metioned officially by Porsche..

Yes I would also believe the 918 will be faster than the C-GT...but not by a lot (+-10secs max)..

And again, read the interview of Mr Müller in Christophorus..he makes a clear statement there about NBR times..

a928:

please bear also in mind that we are still talking about road cars here..so they need to be driveable..

Actually, that is one relevant part of the equation. The relevance of NBR laptimes cannot be seen isolated as the yardstick of a car´s merits. One has to consider how well the Porsche GT models perform even in normal day-to-day traffic and realize that some performance potential has been sacrificed in favour of comfort and appreciable handling.

I expect the McLaren to be at least on par with the GT2 RS in terms of straightline performance and handling, the question remains if its technological advancements will pay off on such a demanding track such as the Nordschleife as I am unaware how many miles the car has covered on this particular track.

Ferdie:

a928:

please bear also in mind that we are still talking about road cars here..so they need to be driveable..

Actually, that is one relevant part of the equation. The relevance of NBR laptimes cannot be seen isolated as the yardstick of a car´s merits. One has to consider how well the Porsche GT models perform even in normal day-to-day traffic and realize that some performance potential has been sacrificed in favour of comfort and appreciable handling.

I expect the McLaren to be at least on par with the GT2 RS in terms of straightline performance and handling, the question remains if its technological advancements will pay off on such a demanding track such as the Nordschleife as I am unaware how many miles the car has covered on this particular track.
 

Exactly ..that is the question..we will know more in May..

BTW: I would only accept the official sport auto result as liable and trustable one - not that I like the so much - but its always the same driver..

I remember when the Nissaen  - or before it came out, there was speculation it would do the NBR in 7:20...

So, wait and see

My predition for the Mclaren; 7:20-7:28

No matter what the 991, 458 Italia, MP4-12 C, GT-R or any of those cars can do, Porsche is still the King of the 'Ring...

~7:18 

Porsche said that there will be a next GT2 RS, and it will be even faster. I love how Porsche can make such a fast car as the GT2 RS, and it hardly needs any advanced tech to compete with the MP4-12C and 458 Italia. I can easily imagine the next GT2 RS doing the same.

But you are right a928, the faster you go, the harder it is to take time off. The current C2S does the Nordschleife in 7:50, so 7:40 would be a significantly faster time. Back to what you said a928, it just wouldn't be possible to take 10 seconds off the GT2 RS's time just because the C2S can do it, but with that new, longer, lighter, and better balanced chassis, I'm sure the 991 GT2 RS will post a significantly better lap time than the current GT2 RS (significance in this sector is like, 3-5 seconds. 

But then again, 'Ring times are somewhat irrelevant. There are just too many factors to consider for each time to be an accurate representation of the car's performance.

Carrara:

No matter what the 991, 458 Italia, MP4-12 C, GT-R or any of those cars can do, Porsche is still the King of the 'Ring...

~7:18 

Porsche said that there will be a next GT2 RS, and it will be even faster. I love how Porsche can make such a fast car as the GT2 RS, and it hardly needs any advanced tech to compete with the MP4-12C and 458 Italia. I can easily imagine the next GT2 RS doing the same.

But you are right a928, the faster you go, the harder it is to take time off. The current C2S does the Nordschleife in 7:50, so 7:40 would be a significantly faster time. Back to what you said a928, it just wouldn't be possible to take 10 seconds off the GT2 RS's time just because the C2S can do it, but with that new, longer, lighter, and better balanced chassis, I'm sure the 991 GT2 RS will post a significantly better lap time than the current GT2 RS (significance in this sector is like, 3-5 seconds. 

But then again, 'Ring times are somewhat irrelevant. There are just too many factors to consider for each time to be an accurate representation of the car's performance.

 and greeting to the US
 

I love talking NBR times and have driven loads of faster cars there (my CSL, Ruf GT2, GTR etc ) and have done Scuderia Hanseat a couple of times etc.

I do think though that outside of the fan forums and petrolheads that really very very few people who buy these cars (458 vs McL vs 911) care or even know about NBR times.

Ferrari sell their car to Ferrari lovers, they'd buy a 458 whether it did a 7:40 or an 8:40 and frankly 95% would never know the difference. These cars are almost never seen on track and almost never driven hard even on the road. The hardest most get used is to rev quickly through 1st gear outside an urban cafe. I have done hundreds of track-days and it's rare day to even see one Ferrari there, wherever you are.

The same applies to most 911s, even Turbos. The exception is GT2/3 which are far more an enthusiasts car and where a large proportion make is on track (more so for GT3 than GT2).

As for McL, well no-one knows, most will be lifestyle choice purchases (like the SLR) and I bet few make it on track, but it's clear that the car is very fast and that it's suspension/cornering is a league ahead of everything currently out there. Ron Dennis has stated that on EVERY metric it outperforms the competition and the reviews of road-tests so far say it significantly blows away a 458 in every single way, except style and passion. It would not surprise me to find it does a truly epic 'ring time, but we'll all have to wait.

Guy:

I love talking NBR times and have driven loads of faster cars there (my CSL, Ruf GT2, GTR etc ) and have done Scuderia Hanseat a couple of times etc.

I do think though that outside of the fan forums and petrolheads that really very very few people who buy these cars (458 vs McL vs 911) care or even know about NBR times.

Ferrari sell their car to Ferrari lovers, they'd buy a 458 whether it did a 7:40 or an 8:40 and frankly 95% would never know the difference. These cars are almost never seen on track and almost never driven hard even on the road. The hardest most get used is to rev quickly through 1st gear outside an urban cafe. I have done hundreds of track-days and it's rare day to even see one Ferrari there, wherever you are.

The same applies to most 911s, even Turbos. The exception is GT2/3 which are far more an enthusiasts car and where a large proportion make is on track (more so for GT3 than GT2).

As for McL, well no-one knows, most will be lifestyle choice purchases (like the SLR) and I bet few make it on track, but it's clear that the car is very fast and that it's suspension/cornering is a league ahead of everything currently out there. Ron Dennis has stated that on EVERY metric it outperforms the competition and the reviews of road-tests so far say it significantly blows away a 458 in every single way, except style and passion. It would not surprise me to find it does a truly epic 'ring time, but we'll all have to wait.

Blueflame

McLaren needs that epic lap time on the NBR though because they don't have the heritage and passion of a Ferrari.

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

Atzporsche:

McLaren needs that epic lap time on the NBR though because they don't have the heritage and passion of a Ferrari.

Nah. McLaren has the legendary F1, still the best supercar after 20 years, newer cars may match or exceed the performance, style, presence, stance, but none of them have the complete package like the F1. The Enzo comes closest though.

Plus, McLaren has the Formula One heritage.

True, but translated into a supercar in 2011 it should definitely impress in terms of speed, even though we all know only 5% will ever see a track. I agree though McLaren can pull off being a strong contender in this segment, and clearly they want to shake this segment and beat Ferrari. I hope Porsche joins this game with the 918 and completely ups the game on everyone.

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

It is difficult to pin down the type of buyer for supercars like the McLaren and 918.  I have a friend who has ordered both cars, and will drive them as daily drivers, depending on his choice that day.  He drove his SLR for over 30,000 miles before selling it, and has already driven his 458 over 10,000 miles in six months.  And that's in addition to the miles on his new SLR.  Hard for we mortals to comprehend, but true...

One in a million.......

"Form follows function"

I agree with everything you wrote except the part on 911's not being at tracks. My experience is the exact opposite. I see a lot of Porsche's doing their thing on track and autocross venues. 

I am living proof. I never hesitated taking the Porsche to the track but never would consider taking my Ferrari.

Enmanuel:
Imo a lot of the people who drive porsches are full on enthusiasts in contrast to a lot of people that own ferraris and lambs solely as a status symbol.

Enmanuel:
Imo a lot of the people who drive porsches are full on enthusiasts in contrast to a lot of people that own ferraris and lambs solely as a status simbol. Therefore more porsches end up on tracks. Also owners are not naive about running costs, service and repair costs after any casualty on a Ferrari are a lot higher than a Porsche, any owner would think about that twice before choosing what to take to the track.

You haven't been to Kuwait recently, have you Enma? The amount of 18-year-olds who expect a 911 as their first, fresh-out-of-high-school car will scare you. Sadly, it's all about the image in this part of the world.

rulesdontapply

Hey guys - just checking in from Deerfield Beach FL

The title of these posts needs to change - 991 it is

RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

Hey guys - just checking in from Deerfield Beach FL

The title of these posts needs to change - 991 it is

Thanks Easy, that was overdue.

Enjoy your stay BTW.
 

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Hot enough for you? 

With all the talk of what spoiler the 991 will have, I thought I would post a pic of what it should not have.  This is the rear of the Gemballa Avalanche, seen outside my hotel in Monaco two weeks ago.  As my daughter would say "OMG!"