Crown

I have the feeling, that 991 Turbo will be something like Pana Turbo compared to the regular Pana's - in other words active aerodinamics and no spoiler at the back...

Believe what you see when you see the new Turbo wing.  It will be like the Panamera - when extended it will be bigger than the base 911 but else it will be folded up, tucked away.  Briefs not boxers.

It's a grower not a show-er!

It will be faster than most every other car, no one will care about the wing!  It will be a boon to 911 owners to make the turbo look more 'plain'.

I love it.

 Guys, don't get your panties in a bunch. The spyshots mean almost nothing. ;)

 Guys, don't get your panties in a bunch, these spyshots mean almost nothing. ;)

intouch1:

i have no source to confirm this. it's just almost common sense as the turbo always had a wing to seperate it from the rest of the lineup.

That's the Porsche tradition, just like 911 always have the engine in the back.

Carrara:

 Guys, don't get your panties in a bunch, these spyshots mean almost nothing. ;)

Now you tell us, after this thread has got up to 111 pages.   

fritz

fritz:

Carrara:

 Guys, don't get your panties in a bunch, these spyshots mean almost nothing. ;)

Now you tell us, after this thread has got up to 111 pages.   

 Really, I see 169 pages on my computer. On my phone though, it shows 111.

***** Porsche 997 GT3 RS(R) 4-litre 500bhp (Mezger) Flat-Six -- Spy Pics *****

It seems Porsche has been testing new decals for the last edition of the 997 model...

...but what happened to the W-I-D-E-R wheel arches from the GT3 RSR?

2011-Porsche-911-GT3-RS-4-litre-spy-pics_Rennteam-link

Me thinks that teamspxxx needs their Photoshop license revoked.....

Proof of their art crime is the third Porsche image above with Ferrari like stripes on the hood.

If the ever growing Porsche  "web community" keeps shlocking stuff like this around its going to reduce the brands value to something lower than Charlie Sheen at a girl scout camp. 

((again) -- i really hope it looks like the Larson pics!

i especically like the slight slant of the front air-intakes and daytime running lights and turn lights (personally, i think the 997's LED daytime running lights/turn signal lights  are much too thick)

i think the shape is modern yet iconic and evolutionary but purely 911.

you can sit in 1 of the first 911's made and then sit in a 997 and see the origins of the current design.

i have suggested that the 991 will change the interior the way the 996 changed the engine. it will be interesting to see if in time the simple understated elements of the 997 interior will become more appreciated then they sometimes are now.

996 didn't just changed the engine, it did wholesale change to the interior as well.

Since the 996, we now have a big ass center stack/console where as before there was just a big ass empty space.

haha very true. 991 will still be the smallest sports car so im ok with the 100mm growth of it.

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Evo magazine interview with Wolfgang Hatz, the new head of R&D at Porsche...

"I think we have to improve the emotional side of the regular 911, to give a more GT3-type feel throughout the 911 range, while still remembering the 911 is a car you can use every day, should you want to..."

- Wolfgang Hatz, Head of R&D, Porsche

 

Hi Guys,

Very imformative forum here :)

Mr Hatz and Mr Dürrheimer said the Mezger engine will not be used anymore in the future - OK - just 3 questions:

1) why is the headline then 991GT3 to include GT1 engine?

2) If the 9A1 engine is really intended for GT3 and racing - why the hell does Porsche then clearly mention in ervery 9A1 manual that the use of race tires is strictly forbidden and may cause severe engine damage, from a source I know that in the current configuration the 9a1 would not last 24 hours on the Nürburgring, Le Mans or any other place..no way..

3) DFI: not all motorsport classes allow this..I know there have been some posts here that this will be changed..but dont you think that Porsche AG would run into high political risk? what if this anticipated change would be delayed by 2 years?

thanks for your ideas..!

a928:

2) If the 9A1 engine is really intended for GT3 and racing - why the hell does Porsche then clearly mention in ervery 9A1 manual that the use of race tires is strictly forbidden and may cause severe engine damage, from a source I know that in the current configuration the 9a1 would not last 24 hours on the Nürburgring, Le Mans or any other place..no way..

3) DFI: not all motorsport classes allow this..I know there have been some posts here that this will be changed..but dont you think that Porsche AG would run into high political risk? what if this anticipated change would be delayed by 2 years?

First of all, welcome to the forum! The 9A1 engine does not feature a true dry-sump lubrification, only a wet-sump layout that is suitable for the g-forces generated by regular street tires. As this was also a subject on the M96/97 engines, this should be the foremost reason.

I assume, and Spyderidol certainly knows the answer, that most competitors in GT racing will use DFI technology in their upcoming models, as is the case with Ferrari´s 458, so the rules will most certainly be adapted in the long run. One should note that the 9A1 has a lower weight than the Mezger engine which, positioned at the back end of the car, is certainly an advantage.

Ferdie:

[...] The 9A1 engine does not feature a true dry-sump lubrification, only a wet-sump layout that is suitable for the g-forces generated by regular street tires. As this was also a subject on the M96/97 engines, this should be the foremost reason.

[...]

I don't think it would be a big project to convert the 9A1 engine to dry-sump lubrication, given that most of the necessary pumps are already in place (the various scavenge pumps), and given that the pressure (supply) pump is electrically driven and thus easily relocatable (as opposed to a gear-driven or chain-driven pump).

Any thoughts on that?

Whoopsy:

996 didn't just changed the engine, it did wholesale change to the interior as well.

Since the 996, we now have a big ass center stack/console where as before there was just a big ass empty space.

they dumped the 996 interior

 the 993 has the essence of the console

Ferdie:

a928:

2) If the 9A1 engine is really intended for GT3 and racing - why the hell does Porsche then clearly mention in ervery 9A1 manual that the use of race tires is strictly forbidden and may cause severe engine damage, from a source I know that in the current configuration the 9a1 would not last 24 hours on the Nürburgring, Le Mans or any other place..no way..

3) DFI: not all motorsport classes allow this..I know there have been some posts here that this will be changed..but dont you think that Porsche AG would run into high political risk? what if this anticipated change would be delayed by 2 years?

First of all, welcome to the forum! The 9A1 engine does not feature a true dry-sump lubrification, only a wet-sump layout that is suitable for the g-forces generated by regular street tires. As this was also a subject on the M96/97 engines, this should be the foremost reason.

The 9A1 lubricates much better than the M96/97 and because of this Cup/Corsa tyres are allowed on 997.2 from the factory for the first time.

On 997.1 with the earlier engine, these "semi-slicks" were strictly forbidden.

"Form follows function"

Ferdie:

a928:

2) If the 9A1 engine is really intended for GT3 and racing - why the hell does Porsche then clearly mention in ervery 9A1 manual that the use of race tires is strictly forbidden and may cause severe engine damage, from a source I know that in the current configuration the 9a1 would not last 24 hours on the Nürburgring, Le Mans or any other place..no way..

3) DFI: not all motorsport classes allow this..I know there have been some posts here that this will be changed..but dont you think that Porsche AG would run into high political risk? what if this anticipated change would be delayed by 2 years?

First of all, welcome to the forum! The 9A1 engine does not feature a true dry-sump lubrification, only a wet-sump layout that is suitable for the g-forces generated by regular street tires. As this was also a subject on the M96/97 engines, this should be the foremost reason.

I assume, and Spyderidol certainly knows the answer, that most competitors in GT racing will use DFI technology in their upcoming models, as is the case with Ferrari´s 458, so the rules will most certainly be adapted in the long run. One should note that the 9A1 has a lower weight than the Mezger engine which, positioned at the back end of the car, is certainly an advantage.

According to the current ACO rules, DFI is still not allowed:

5.2.6 - Are forbidden save on the road car available for sale :
• Variable valve timing (*) • Variable length/diameter inlet
systems (*) • Direct injection (*) • Variable geometry
turbo/superchargers (*) • Titanium apart from connecting
rods, valves and valve retainers, heat shields • Magnesium
apart from standard production mechanical parts which are
described in the ACO Homologation form • Ceramic
components • Carbon or composite materials, except used
in clutches and non stressed covers, lids or ducts.
(*) These devices cannot be modified, but they can be
neutralised or removed.

Spyderidol:

Ferdie:

a928:

2) If the 9A1 engine is really intended for GT3 and racing - why the hell does Porsche then clearly mention in ervery 9A1 manual that the use of race tires is strictly forbidden and may cause severe engine damage, from a source I know that in the current configuration the 9a1 would not last 24 hours on the Nürburgring, Le Mans or any other place..no way..

3) DFI: not all motorsport classes allow this..I know there have been some posts here that this will be changed..but dont you think that Porsche AG would run into high political risk? what if this anticipated change would be delayed by 2 years?

First of all, welcome to the forum! The 9A1 engine does not feature a true dry-sump lubrification, only a wet-sump layout that is suitable for the g-forces generated by regular street tires. As this was also a subject on the M96/97 engines, this should be the foremost reason.

I assume, and Spyderidol certainly knows the answer, that most competitors in GT racing will use DFI technology in their upcoming models, as is the case with Ferrari´s 458, so the rules will most certainly be adapted in the long run. One should note that the 9A1 has a lower weight than the Mezger engine which, positioned at the back end of the car, is certainly an advantage.

According to the current ACO rules, DFI is still not allowed

I remember that the last version of the RS Spyder with DFI needed special fuel to run properly.

There was a controversy and a special dispensation by the governing body.

"Form follows function"

Hi Ferdie :)

thanks for the welcoming words

Yes I know that the 9A1 engine is not a typical dry sump engine..but here some more thoughts of me:

1) yes maybe the 9A1 engine could be converted - maybe Porsche intended this from the beginning - but never really told us - but the engine main parts would be not compatible with the normal ones, but probably still cheaper the mezger one

2) OK - 9A1 seems maybe lighter

3) contra 9A1: rules have not changed yet..

4) contra 9A1: yes - maybe semi slicks are now allowed...but certainly no slicks...!!- this can be done however with any Mezger engine - that is by the way a good fuel economy car..I know C2S MKII 997 that use about the same fuel as my 997 GT3..with similar driving styles...the so often claimed lower fuel consumption with DFI in the 997 has not really shown a real diffence so far

5) contra 9A1: no experience in motorsport...Porsche would take a big gamble with changing the engine from one year to the other - yes - the have experience with the spyder - but that is not at all a 9A1 engine..fact is is has no experience ..and a non working 9A1 motorsport engine would create huge image and financial loss in the end. What if the engine doesnt last? 458 competition teams will be happy and everybody would turn away from Porsche..lthrowing Porsche Motorsport Division close to bankrupcy.

I know this is not an easy case for them..Im sure their management board is discussing this issue controversially - or has already done it.

Just one question to you guys: Does the normal Ferrari 458 have the same engine than the Risi Competizioni engine? I mean is it fundamentally the same? or did it have to changed a lot for racing? Can a normal 458 be driven with full slick tires - will it last or wil the engine be killed? I know the F430 engine would certainly not have liked slick tires..

PS: Usually Im active in another forum (pff.de)..there is alsa a 991 thread there..but the guys there are all believing that the 991 S will do 7;30 on the ring..and that will almost kill the 918 (which Porsche says will do this time). The 7:40 mentioned here seems more realistic..probably in the end it will be a 7:42/43..so that there is still a considerable gap to the 918..and then we still have a GT3 and GT2 coming up. PS: the current 997 GT2 is already very close to the 918 !!..just proves how good this car is..not to forget the 997GT2RS.

Im really curios what the McLaren can do..speculation has it can be beat the GT2RS by a few seconds..bu the GT2 RS is almost already 20s faster then the 458 (7:38)..and then the Mclareb would be 30 sec. faster than the 458..I simply cannot believe this..

reginos:

Spyderidol:

Ferdie:

a928:

2) If the 9A1 engine is really intended for GT3 and racing - why the hell does Porsche then clearly mention in ervery 9A1 manual that the use of race tires is strictly forbidden and may cause severe engine damage, from a source I know that in the current configuration the 9a1 would not last 24 hours on the Nürburgring, Le Mans or any other place..no way..

3) DFI: not all motorsport classes allow this..I know there have been some posts here that this will be changed..but dont you think that Porsche AG would run into high political risk? what if this anticipated change would be delayed by 2 years?

First of all, welcome to the forum! The 9A1 engine does not feature a true dry-sump lubrification, only a wet-sump layout that is suitable for the g-forces generated by regular street tires. As this was also a subject on the M96/97 engines, this should be the foremost reason.

I assume, and Spyderidol certainly knows the answer, that most competitors in GT racing will use DFI technology in their upcoming models, as is the case with Ferrari´s 458, so the rules will most certainly be adapted in the long run. One should note that the 9A1 has a lower weight than the Mezger engine which, positioned at the back end of the car, is certainly an advantage.

According to the current ACO rules, DFI is still not allowed

I remember that the last version of the RS Spyder with DFI needed special fuel to run properly.

There was a controversy and a special dispensation by the governing body.

Sorry - I should have been more clear. There is still no DFI for GTE class cars.

Yes, - the controversy was to do with the quantity of additive that Porsche needed to add to their fuel to avoid blockages in their fuel jets (I believe),

a928:

1) yes maybe the 9A1 engine could be converted - maybe Porsche intended this from the beginning - but never really told us - but the engine main parts would be not compatible with the normal ones, but probably still cheaper the mezger one [...]

4) contra 9A1: yes - maybe semi slicks are now allowed...but certainly no slicks...!!- this can be done however with any Mezger engine - that is by the way a good fuel economy car..I know C2S MKII 997 that use about the same fuel as my 997 GT3..with similar driving styles...the so often claimed lower fuel consumption with DFI in the 997 has not really shown a real diffence so far

5) contra 9A1: no experience in motorsport...Porsche would take a big gamble with changing the engine from one year to the other - yes - the have experience with the spyder - but that is not at all a 9A1 engine..fact is is has no experience ..and a non working 9A1 motorsport engine would create huge image and financial loss in the end. What if the engine doesnt last? 458 competition teams will be happy and everybody would turn away from Porsche..lthrowing Porsche Motorsport Division close to bankrupcy.

I have not the slightest doubt that Porsche will be able to adapt the 9A1 engine to be suitable for motorsport applications. Afterall, an independently modified V8 sourced from the Cayenne has even won the 24hrs of Daytona. In retrospektive, one can certainly assume that the 9A1 was aimed to replace all existing flat-6 engines used until now, including the GT and turbocharged models.

The fuel efficiency of the GT3 is indeed amazing, maybe it has to do with the longer gearing?
 

a928:

PS: Usually Im active in another forum (pff.de)..there is alsa a 991 thread there..but the guys there are all believing that the 991 S will do 7;30 on the ring..and that will almost kill the 918 (which Porsche says will do this time).

Im really curios what the McLaren can do..speculation has it can be beat the GT2RS by a few seconds..bu the GT2 RS is almost already 20s faster then the 458 (7:38)..and then the Mclareb would be 30 sec. faster than the 458..I simply cannot believe this..

pff.de does have a 924 subforum that is urgently missing here... Seriously though, most participating users here are focussed on the current offers from premium brands, more vintage enthusiasts are posting on the other forums.

Regarding the McLaren MP4, check out this thread.
 

Ferdie:

a928:

1) yes maybe the 9A1 engine could be converted - maybe Porsche intended this from the beginning - but never really told us - but the engine main parts would be not compatible with the normal ones, but probably still cheaper the mezger one [...]

4) contra 9A1: yes - maybe semi slicks are now allowed...but certainly no slicks...!!- this can be done however with any Mezger engine - that is by the way a good fuel economy car..I know C2S MKII 997 that use about the same fuel as my 997 GT3..with similar driving styles...the so often claimed lower fuel consumption with DFI in the 997 has not really shown a real diffence so far

5) contra 9A1: no experience in motorsport...Porsche would take a big gamble with changing the engine from one year to the other - yes - the have experience with the spyder - but that is not at all a 9A1 engine..fact is is has no experience ..and a non working 9A1 motorsport engine would create huge image and financial loss in the end. What if the engine doesnt last? 458 competition teams will be happy and everybody would turn away from Porsche..lthrowing Porsche Motorsport Division close to bankrupcy.

I have not the slightest doubt that Porsche will be able to adapt the 9A1 engine to be suitable for motorsport applications. Afterall, an independently modified V8 sourced from the Cayenne has even won the 24hrs of Daytona. In retrospektive, one can certainly assume that the 9A1 was aimed to replace all existing flat-6 engines used until now, including the GT and turbocharged models.

The fuel efficiency of the GT3 is indeed amazing, maybe it has to do with the longer gearing?
 

a928:

PS: Usually Im active in another forum (pff.de)..there is alsa a 991 thread there..but the guys there are all believing that the 991 S will do 7;30 on the ring..and that will almost kill the 918 (which Porsche says will do this time).

Im really curios what the McLaren can do..speculation has it can be beat the GT2RS by a few seconds..bu the GT2 RS is almost already 20s faster then the 458 (7:38)..and then the Mclareb would be 30 sec. faster than the 458..I simply cannot believe this..

pff.de does have a 924 subforum that is urgently missing here... Seriously though, most participating users here are focussed on the current offers from premium brands, more vintage enthusiasts are posting on the other forums.

Regarding the McLaren MP4, check out this thread.

 

Hi Ferdie,

Thanks for your advice..whether the 9A1 engine can easily be adapted for racing..I doubt that - it seems that in all other points we agree..yes of course this can be done..but as I said before...the engine will probably then be at least to 50% completely be reshaped..+  a lot of new cost which could be saved by just giving the Mezger engine 4L and you have 500Hp..that can easily deal with a 458 and a superleggera..even the 997 can do that ( I mean for example the GT3 RS or GT2, not to mention the GT2RS)

Plus: Can the 9A1 engine sustain high revving of 9000rpm? what is the max allowed in a normal MKII 997 S now? no clou about that ..

To the Mclaren, interesting thread, I agree to one user there who says that the main question is whether it could beat the GT2RS...yes maybe in straight line acceleration..bur for the rest? I mean the Mclaren is a supercar..but I cannot imagine that it will for the same price be 15-20sec faster around NBR than a 458..that went for 7:38..even the nornal 997GT2 smashes that. Even the Lambo LP670 is far away from that.

My opinoin on the Mclaren:

1) if it does around 7:20 (like the GT2 RS)..its a supercar..but it would make the 458 make look ridicolous..for the same money nobody will buy the maranello stuff anymore..and honestly I cant imagine it would marginalise a new 458 by that much

2) If it is faster than 7:20 all other manufacturers will have a serious problem..nobody will be able to compete on this level..i think even a 991 GT2 would not be able to get there..and Porsche could drop its 918 7:30 Ringtool for 700000€ immediately

3) regarding Porsche: if the 918 does around 7:30 (what is officially claimed) and the Mclaren is much faster then Porsche has a big problem...who will pay three times the price? 

4) regarding Porsche: would Porsche allow a 991 turbo/Gt2 to marginalise a 918?,,for one third of the price???

5) One thing that may really turn against the Mclaren one day..and maybe soon, are EU environmental laws...at 287CO2 it really could have a problem one day..in fact Mclaren as a whole is under threat by this..

Although Im not a fan of the hybrid etc..and lower CO2 emission cars etc, Porsche has realised that there is no way out, Lambo and Ferrari too..but the Mclaren ..

Comments welcome:)
 

 Hi Ferdie,

Thanks for your advice..whether the 9A1 engine can easily be adapted for racing..I doubt that - it seems that in all other points we agree..yes of course this can be done..but as I said before...the engine will probably then be at least to 50% completely be reshaped..+ a lot of new cost which could be saved by just giving the Mezger engine 4L and you have 500Hp..that can easily deal with a 458 and a superleggera..even the 997 can do that ( I mean for example the GT3 RS or GT2, not to mention the GT2RS)

Plus: Can the 9A1 engine sustain high revving of 9000rpm? what is the max allowed in a normal MKII 997 S now? no clou about that ..

To the Mclaren, interesting thread, I agree to one user there who says that the main question is whether it could beat the GT2RS...yes maybe in straight line acceleration..bur for the rest? I mean the Mclaren is a supercar..but I cannot imagine that it will for the same price be 15-20sec faster around NBR than a 458..that went for 7:38..even the nornal 997GT2 smashes that. Even the Lambo LP670 is far away from that.

My opinoin on the Mclaren:

1) if it does around 7:20 (like the GT2 RS)..its a supercar..but it would make the 458 make look ridicolous..for the same money nobody will buy the maranello stuff anymore..and honestly I cant imagine it would marginalise a new 458 by that much

2) If it is faster than 7:20 all other manufacturers will have a serious problem..nobody will be able to compete on this level..i think even a 991 GT2 would not be able to get there..and Porsche could drop its 918 7:30 Ringtool for 700000€ immediately

3) regarding Porsche: if the 918 does around 7:30 (what is officially claimed) and the Mclaren is much faster then Porsche has a big problem...who will pay three times the price?

4) regarding Porsche: would Porsche allow a 991 turbo/Gt2 to marginalise a 918?,,for one third of the price???

5) One thing that may really turn against the Mclaren one day..and maybe soon, are EU environmental laws...at 287CO2 it really could have a problem one day..in fact Mclaren as a whole is under threat by this..

Although Im not a fan of the hybrid etc..and lower CO2 emission cars etc, Porsche has realised that there is no way out, Lambo and Ferrari too..but the Mclaren ..

Comments welcome:)
 

Just two points:

1. The Mezger already has a 4.0L version for the track (has had for over a year) and will shortly be arriving on our roads.
2. I wouldn't take the 7:30 time around the Ring for the 918 as gospel.

7:30 for the 918 Spyder are an early stage claim from Porsche. The big word here was UNDER. I'm absolutely sure, that in 2013 918 Spyder will be fast enough to be fastest ever Porsche and maybe Ring record holder!

If Porsche claim 7:18 for the GT2RS, the 918 should drop below 7:00 to justify its price and create buyer interest.

Possible? I don't know! But McLaren let the rumour out that they are doing 7:00 dead consistently with some runs even below!

--

"Form follows function"

I heard also some wild dreams rumors about MP4-12C Ring time. We will see...

Just bare in mind Ring times for following sportscars on the market(Sport Auto Ring times):

Ferrari 458 Italia 7.38min

Mercedes SLS AMG 7.40min

Porsche 997.2 Turbo S 7.44min

All with normal street tires. So, what can we expect form 991 Turbo for example? 10s-12s better Ring time with street tires-max!

...AND we all need to come down all the talk about MP4-12C. All we know is rumors released by McLaren. First real tests from NON UK car press will gives us some merrit. For God sake car is still NOT even on the market yet.

KresoF1:

I heard also some wild dreams rumors about MP4-12C Ring time. We will see...

 

Just bare in mind Ring times for following sportscars on the market(Sport Auto Ring times):

Ferrari 458 Italia 7.38min

Mercedes SLS AMG 7.40min

Porsche 997.2 Turbo S 7.44min

All with normal street tires. So, what can we expect form 991 Turbo for example? 10s-12s better Ring time with street tires-max!

...AND we all need to come down all the talk about MP4-12C. All we know is rumors released by McLaren. First real tests from NON UK car press will gives us some merrit. For God sake car is still NOT even on the market yet.

Well said, Kreso.
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.