koko:
reginos:
Porsche name doesn't exhibit wealth.
Really?? Not as much as Ferrari and Lambo but still Porsche is a luxury item.
Sure, it's not for poor people but even a 911 Turbo is far from an entry level Ferrari or Lamborghini in terms purchase price and maintenance. The 911 S much less so. I would say a 911 it's on par with a top Mercedes in terms of affordability.
"Form follows function"
Mar 5, 2011 4:11:43 PM
reginos:
Ferrari and Lamborghini to many are primarily means of flashing money whereas the Porsche name doesn't exhibit wealth. A matter of priorities I suppose
+1
REALZEUS:
You cannot really compare a million Dollar Enzo to an Aventador that costs 1/3rd of what the Ferrari costs. The fact remains that the Aventador is much bigger than the Murci and is also lighter at the same time and a lot stiffer!
just as a 997 turbo S will be a better car and outperform a 959, an aventador will be a better car and outperform an enzo.
intouch1:
REALZEUS:
You cannot really compare a million Dollar Enzo to an Aventador that costs 1/3rd of what the Ferrari costs. The fact remains that the Aventador is much bigger than the Murci and is also lighter at the same time and a lot stiffer!
just as a 997 turbo S will be a better car and outperform a 959, an aventador will be a better car and outperform an enzo.
This remains to be seen really. The Enzo is more than 200 kg lighter...
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FERRARI RULES!!!
Mar 5, 2011 6:23:08 PM
palenimbus:
Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.
The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.
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FERRARI RULES!!!
the aventador is the most beautiful car today imo. as for weight, i think it mainly come from awd and luxury, and these days sunday supercar are gone, people want cars that can be driven easily, everyday and with luxury, i am one of them. of course there is people that prefer ultra hardcore supercars, but their numbers are low and manufacturer cant rely on them
2010 Ferrari 458 Italia
2009 Fiat 500 Abarth SS Ferrari
dhayek:
the aventador is the most beautiful car today imo. as for weight, i think it mainly come from awd and luxury, and these days sunday supercar are gone, people want cars that can be driven easily, everyday and with luxury, i am one of them. of course there is people that prefer ultra hardcore supercars, but their numbers are low and manufacturer cant rely on them
Manufacturers cater for the hardcore enthusiasts also with their special lightweight models (Scuderia, GTO, Superleggera, Superveloce, RS et. al).
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FERRARI RULES!!!
Mar 5, 2011 7:19:14 PM
Mar 5, 2011 10:36:54 PM
REALZEUS:
palenimbus:
Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.
The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.
I'm not that sure about this one, REALZEUS. Aventador has more power and is not that much heavier. Plus it has the far superior gearbox, Enzo's F1 is Stone Age against it
I'd guess it's a dead heat between those two.
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The secret of life is to admire without desiring.
dhayek:
the aventador is the most beautiful car today imo. as for weight, i think it mainly come from awd and luxury, and these days sunday supercar are gone, people want cars that can be driven easily, everyday and with luxury, i am one of them. of course there is people that prefer ultra hardcore supercars, but their numbers are low and manufacturer cant rely on them
Dimitry, I was wondering where you were. nice to see you back online.
Kindly give us a long term review of your 458.
Mar 6, 2011 12:30:48 AM
Mar 6, 2011 12:58:29 AM
Nice to hear, would love to see your photos from the show. It it growing on me i have to say.
As for the Enzo, this Lambo will beat it no question. But they are different animals from a different era of cars.
indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine.. I happen to like both :)
Mar 6, 2011 12:30:23 PM
REALZEUS:
palenimbus:
Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.
The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.
There are a lot of advancements other than the gearbox. The chassis for example is a point of note with the new adventador, apparently it's stiffer than other car. Also the electronics (traction control etc), brakes. I think it will be faster.
Mar 6, 2011 12:56:52 PM
palenimbus:
REALZEUS:
palenimbus:
Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.
The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.
There are a lot of advancements other than the gearbox. The chassis for example is a point of note with the new adventador, apparently it's stiffer than other car. Also the electronics (traction control etc), brakes. I think it will be faster.
Stiffer chassis than the Murcielago that is. The Enzo had a carbon tub also and inherited 20 years of Formula 1 experience with that material on top of that.
Mar 6, 2011 6:14:49 PM
Mar 6, 2011 7:57:13 PM
REALZEUS: This remains to be seen really. The Enzo is more than 200 kg lighter...
Actually, the Enzo is more than 300 kg lighter !
Enzo weight: 1255 kg (dry)
Aventador weight: 1575 kg (dry)
Rossi:
REALZEUS:
palenimbus:
Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.
The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.
I'm not that sure about this one, REALZEUS. Aventador has more power and is not that much heavier. Plus it has the far superior gearbox, Enzo's F1 is Stone Age against itI'd guess it's a dead heat between those two.
So 320 kilograms is not that much heavier to you ??? It's like having 5 (yes, FIVE!) people more on board of the car ! So at any given time the lambo has to carry 5 people excluding the driver or passenger, while the enzo has to carry NONE. In terms of power to weight ratio, that means the lambo WASTES 20% of it's power or 140 horses just to carry the invisible passengers ! So that means that in order to propel the same weight as that of an enzo (1250+fluids+driver), the lambo only has 560 bhp to spare ! This while the ferrari has 660 bhp, so 100 more ponies available for the same weight !
Mar 6, 2011 8:39:21 PM
Mar 6, 2011 9:45:05 PM
zmeulzmeilor:
REALZEUS: This remains to be seen really. The Enzo is more than 200 kg lighter...Actually, the Enzo is more than 300 kg lighter !
Enzo weight: 1255 kg (dry)
Aventador weight: 1575 kg (dry)
Rossi:
REALZEUS:
palenimbus:
Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.
The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.
I'm not that sure about this one, REALZEUS. Aventador has more power and is not that much heavier. Plus it has the far superior gearbox, Enzo's F1 is Stone Age against it
I'd guess it's a dead heat between those two.
So 320 kilograms is not that much heavier to you ??? It's like having 5 (yes, FIVE!) people more on board of the car ! So at any given time the lambo has to carry 5 people excluding the driver or passenger, while the enzo has to carry NONE. In terms of power to weight ratio, that means the lambo WASTES 20% of it's power or 140 horses just to carry the invisible passengers ! So that means that in order to propel the same weight as that of an enzo (1250+fluids+driver), the lambo only has 560 bhp to spare ! This while the ferrari has 660 bhp, so 100 more ponies available for the same weight !
Keep your shirt on, zmeulzmeilor.
If you believe in the 1.255 dry weight of the Enzo, I guess you also believe in Santa Clause.
May I direct your attention to a veritable test of the Enzo, for example done by Road and Track in 2003:
Enzo curb weight: 1.465 kg (factory claim)
Enzo curb weight: 1.550 kg (measured by R&T)
So if the factory claim of the Aventador is honest (okay, despite of Audi it's still an Italian car... ), the difference between those two won't be that much.
The secret of life is to admire without desiring.
Mar 6, 2011 10:25:50 PM
And Enzo's official curb weight is 1365 kg, not 1465. Road and track measured the curb weight at 1468 kg (3230 lb). But they also measured the Mclaren F1 at 1290 kg (2840 lb), whereas the official claim is 1140 ! Which means the americans probably have a different understanding of the term "curb weight" (maybe they include their kids, dog, and other farm animals in it, as they're used with their pick-ups ), and/or they're just too damn fat and hence the 100+ kg increase over the factory claims.
And let me get this straight: you want me to trust lamborghini's factory claims but not ferrari's ? But then I would be BIASED wouldn't I ? Either way, you can't compare apples with oranges, i.e lambo's factory claim with some magazine's claim about it's rival, you either compare official claims for both cars, or compare magazine claims (preferably from the same magazine) for both cars, otherwise it's just stupid. So from the official (i.e. factory) sources, enzo is lighter by a whooping 320 kg's than aventador, and until several independent sources say otherwise I have no reason to doubt this.
Mar 6, 2011 11:26:22 PM
zmeulzmeilor:
Enzo's official curb weight is 1365 kg, not 1465. Road and track measured the curb weight at 1468 kg (3230 lb). But they also measured the Mclaren F1 at 1290 kg (2840 lb), whereas the official claim is 1140 ! Which means the americans probably have a different understanding of the term "curb weight" (maybe they include their kids, dog, and other farm animals in it, as they're used with their pick-ups ), and/or they're just too damn fat and hence the 100+ kg increase over the factory claims.
I don't give a damn on Ferrari's official curb weight numbers, since we all know, that you can't trust these figures at all.
Fact is, that an Enzo is close to 1.500 kg, without driver and baggage that is (which is a good number, given the size of the car).
I stop discussing with you here, since it will lead us nowhere. BTW, I find your wording quite offensive, this is not how we talk here at Rennteam.
EDIT (since you added something to your post): I don't want you to trust anything and if you can read properly you will see, that I was saying IF THE FACTORY CLAIM OF THE AVENTADOR IS HONEST. Got it now?
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The secret of life is to admire without desiring.
Mar 7, 2011 12:11:31 AM
Mar 7, 2011 6:37:41 AM
Mar 7, 2011 3:02:21 PM
Rossi:
I don't give a damn on Ferrari's official curb weight numbers, since we all know, that you can't trust these figures at all.
BUT YOU SAID THAT "Enzo curb weight is 1.465 kg (factory claim)" . Which is NOT true, as anyone can see ferrari claims it's 1365.
Also, the curb weight from R&T you gave wasn't accurate either ! So please, stop making claims you can't back up.
Fact is, that an Enzo is close to 1.500 kg, without driver and baggage that is (which is a good number, given the size of the car).
I don't get it, why is this a fact ? Just because some stupid magazine says so ? And how do you know the weight they measured (1468 kg, not 1550 like you said) was without driver and baggage ? It only says curb weight, and curb weight usually includes driver and baggage.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/car/2003-ferrari-enzo/page_5_-_2003_ferrari_enzo_page_5
I stop discussing with you here, since it will lead us nowhere. BTW, I find your wording quite offensive, this is not how we talk here at Rennteam.
Yes indeed, it will lead us nowhere is if you keep making claims with no basis what so ever and draw conclusions on those claims. My conclusion is based on actual weight provided by the manufacturer, your conclusion is based on illogical assumptions (i.e ferrari lies abouts it's cars weight, lambo does not, R&T magazine measurements are reliable, factory measurements are not) and/or made up numbers just to follow your already drawn conclusion.
EDIT (since you added something to your post): I don't want you to trust anything and if you can read properly you will see, that I was saying IF THE FACTORY CLAIM OF THE AVENTADOR IS HONEST. Got it now?
No, I don't get it. Because if you assume that the factory claim of the aventador is honest, you should assume that the factory claim of the enzo is honest too.
Mar 7, 2011 3:40:19 PM
The weight of Enzo
Many magazines confuse the weight figures of Enzo and rivals. Ferrari claims Enzo's dry weight is 1255kg while kerb weight (with driver, engine fluid and half tank of fuel) is 1365kg. In the past, Ferrari quoted only dry weight for F40 (1100kg) and F50 (1230kg). Many other Italian supercar specialists also prefer to quote dry weight, such as Pagani Zonda C12S (1250kg) and Lamborghini Murcielago (1650kg).
Unfortunately, some magazines (including Autocar and Evo) confused dry weight with kerb weight thus incorrectly reported that Enzo were 135kg heavier than F50 or 115kg heavier than Pagani Zonda etc. In fact, Enzo is just 25kg heavier than F50 and 5kg heavier than Zonda.
However, McLaren F1's 1138kg, according to McLaren, is kerb weight. Therefore it is 227kg lighter than Enzo.
http://www.autozine.org/html/Ferrari/Enzo.html
You see ? Even professional reviewers trust the official claims ! And if I were to believe R&T, then I should think that not only ferrari, but also mclaren lies about their car's weight, since R&T claims curb weight for the F1 is 1290 kg, wheras mclaren says it's 1138 !
Mar 7, 2011 5:44:45 PM