Crown

According to this:

www.worldcarfans.com/110112429731/porsche-panamera-diesel-confirmed-for-production

I understand all the business logic behind this, but it really does sadden me.

Spyderidol:

According to this:

www.worldcarfans.com/110112429731/porsche-panamera-diesel-confirmed-for-production

I understand all the business logic behind this, but it really does sadden me.

Why does this sadden you ? In Europe, a Diesel is a must. You wouldn't believe how many wealthy people over here in Germany actually care a lot about fuel cost. I know a colleague of mine who recently bought a Mercedes S class Diesel for over 100000 EUR. He actually liked the Panamera S a lot but with all the options he wanted, it was a 140000 EUR car, so he went for the S class instead. 

Personally, I would have chosen the new S500 4MATIC with 435 HP engine but... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC, A car the size (and weight) of a Panamera with an engine below 300bhp! Now does that sound like something the " old" Porsche would build?Things have changed, and I have to accept it., but it does not please me.

Great news! Love to hear that! Finally the right engine to drive frequent long distance with such a car. Car jumps up on the #1 position of my 2011 wish list! 

@Spyderidol: I drive a 535d as a daily driver. I had once a courtesy 550i while mine was for service. I cant tell you how weak that 550i felt compared to my strong Diesel. Even after testdriving the Panamera 4S I had to say that the power on low speeds is much better in the BMW than in the Panamera 4S (of course, above 180 km/h the Panamera is a different league).

I drive 1000km a week for buisness, majorly two long distance (each 300 km) and some smaller trips. The Diesel is the right engine for me. The car consumes less than 9 ltr on 100 km and is fast up to 260 km/h until it got stopped by the limiter. Perfect car for me. I thought many times about an Panamera but two things - regarding filling up such an car. The V8 consumes 13-14 ltr average, which lets the car going max 450 km before the next refill. The car takes Super Plus which is apprx. 35 ct. more expensive as the Diesel. With my BMW I can drive 1000km with one tank, it consumes 9 ltr max and its Diesel is less expensive. Calculate this with 1000 km a week - I just have to go 50 times less to the petrol station over the year. Even not putting the costs in the foreground, just the convenience and the high torque is more pleasureful for me!

Diesel is a right alternative for the Panamera. After testing the Cayenne Diesel it makes a lot of sense... if it wasn't for the price!

997 GT3 RS

Spyderidol:

RC, A car the size (and weight) of a Panamera with an engine below 300bhp! Now does that sound like something the " old" Porsche would build?Things have changed, and I have to accept it., but it does not please me.

The Mercedes S class Diesel my colleague bought has something around 260 HP or so.

The huge torque compensates a lot for the missing horses, especially when driving below 160 kph (most countries have a speed limit anyway).

I still wouldn't drive a Diesel, unless it has a huge power figure or at least a lower weight to compensate for the lower power but thats my decision. So many people I know drive a Diesel and are very happy about it. Not my thing but to each his own I guess. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Spyderidol:

RC, A car the size (and weight) of a Panamera with an engine below 300bhp! Now does that sound like something the " old" Porsche would build?Things have changed, and I have to accept it., but it does not please me.

 Power isn't everything. To coin a phrase:  Torque talks! 

fritz

0-100Km/h in over 7 seconds

Anyway, as Porsche undoubtedly predicted, there are many fans of this type of car out there and they will sell many of them. It's just not my cup of tea.

 I think the problem is not if a low power-to-weight econo diesel Panemera is a good idea for some customers, because it is, for certain types of use that diesel version makes good sense as Lars well pointed out. The problem some people have with it is that such a cars in the line up, decrease the brand image of Porsche as a high-end high performance sporty automaker like Aston, Maserati, Lambo, Ferrari, future Lotus, ect) and more like a BMW type company. Many current Panamera customers will not like that their car will now be offered with a 260HP diesel engine. If they were installing the Audi W12 diesel engine, then that would be different, and there would be less objection to it.

Spot on Carlos!

experienced exactly the same situation with the cayenne a few months ago. This is the future of porsche.

we will have to start thinking about moving to ferrari

Carlos from Spain:

 I think the problem is not if a low power-to-weight econo diesel Panemera is a good idea for some customers, because it is, for certain types of use that diesel version makes good sense as Lars well pointed out. The problem some people have with it is that such a cars in the line up, decrease the brand image of Porsche as a high-end high performance sporty automaker like Aston, Maserati, Lambo, Ferrari, future Lotus, ect) and more like a BMW type company. Many current Panamera customers will not like that their car will now be offered with a 260HP diesel engine. If they were installing the Audi W12 diesel engine, then that would be different, and there would be less objection to it.

For me brand image is not a function of the number of cars made or what other models are in the same brand but it is derived from the quality of the cars made. How good the cars are. There have been limited production names that made rubbish cars and mainstream brands with real stars in their range.  Moreover, what matters for me is the model I choose to own and drive. If it has the quality of design and construction and the right performance and gives me pleasure, then I don't care what engines other models have or how they look.

Similarly, someone who chooses a high performance Mercedes (SLS for example) doesn't care about the A150 and doesn't get involved in the logic of whether or not it devalues their car.

Perhaps in the future if and when Porsche are fully integrated into the VW Group, they could become more like Lamborghini or Bentley focusing on particular segments. But now it would be foolish to drop their very popular models and hence lose revenues for the fear of appearing mainstream. Anyway, Porsche production in total is around 100.000 units p.a. hardly at the same level as premium brands like BMW or Mercedes.

--

"Form follows function"

 I'm sure Porsche has done their research and if they are offering it it s because it will sell and will be profitable for them.  But the quality of the cars is just one aspect of brand image, and the "type" of cars they produce and are known for is another, they are not interchangeable. Toyota has great quality cars but does not carry the same image or passion as Porsche cars do, and Ferrari has less quality than Toyota and arguably carries even more than Porsche as a sportcar manufacturer. That image Porsche has, gets diluted the more they produce non-sporty cars. Same as if Porsche stops participating in motorracing for example, no mater the quality of their cars.

Personally I rather they concentrate all their resources and know-how to developing sportier cars, and not developing diesel engines, 4 cilinder cars, etc... but Porsche has to do what is more profitable for them. That said, I will still keep buying their 911 inspite of whatever other models they make, IF they keep "delivering" with the 911 evolutions they come out and that can't happen if Porsche does not make enough money for R&D, if the company brand image suffers, then so be it... but lets not fool ourselves, it suffers when ever they bring out an underperforming model version to the lineup. 

My hope is what you mentioned, that when they integrate fully into the VAG maybe then Porsche will no longer have to extend they model range so much into less sporty segments, and dedicate themselves to their sportier versions. But who knows

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Spyderidol:

0-100Km/h in over 7 seconds

Anyway, as Porsche undoubtedly predicted, there are many fans of this type of car out there and they will sell many of them. It's just not my cup of tea.

 

I agreee that this would be very slow - even my 535d is much faster!

Carlos from Spain:

.... when they integrate fully into the VAG

AFAIK there are some legal, tax and possibly accounting issues that have been preventing this from happening. Completion of the Porsche acquisition is still not certain yet. So Porsche is right to plan its future based on the worst case scenario i.e. that its own model range has to meet EU emissions requirements independently of reliance upon the VAG Group.

So far, Porsche has been very skilful in how it extends the product range. It has not been prepared to dilute its sporty image - so it has made sporty SUVs (Cayenne), sporty 4 seaters (Panamera) etc. It's a delicate balance.

Like you said, I will continue to buy a 911 provided that the 911 concept stays true to its identity.

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

The 911 concept as great as it is, is loosing its myth on every other Porsche which is sold day by day. Especially the cheaper models like the Boxster, Cayman, but also the SUVs and Sedans are killing the Sport Character of the brand. 15 years ago you named Porsche in the same sentence with Ferrari and Lamborghini, nowadays you put it into the sentence with Mercedes, VW, BMW. Old days you said Porsche and automatically meant the 911, nowadays you have to name it "Eleven" as Porsche stands for a wide variety. Somehow good, somehow sad. 

Carlos from Spain:

The problem some people have with it is that such a cars in the line up, decrease the brand image of Porsche as a high-end high performance sporty automaker like Aston, Maserati, Lambo, Ferrari, future Lotus, ect) and more like a BMW type company.

Lars997:

  Old days you said Porsche and automatically meant the 911, nowadays you have to name it "Eleven" as Porsche stands for a wide variety. Somehow good, somehow sad. 

somehow not correct.

In the old days - Porsche meant the dream of owning a 928 and dominating F1 and Lemans.

have to inject some reality every now and then. Don't blame Porsche, AM ........ for these cars blame the politicians.

racerx:

In the old days - Porsche meant the dream of owning a 928 

@ Lars and Easy, I fully agree 
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Carlos from Spain:

racerx:

In the old days - Porsche meant the dream of owning a 928 

Way to keep it real 

Anyway, the Cygnet is an anecdote, it won't likely take from the brand as would a V6 diesel version of  the Rapide for example, with a diesel SUV, a V6 Vantage, etc.

Carlos, I am glad you mention a V6 vanatge, it will help illustrate what I said about Porsche history.

The ONLY people buying a V8 vantage today instead of a V12 Vantage are people who can't afford the V12V. That is today's reality. The V12V is the better product. It's the price that makes the decision.

Yesterdays reality was if you could afford it you bought the 928 over the 911, it was the superior car in every respect. The Porsche engineers planned it that way and made it that way. It was the reality of the time. No amount of Rose in your glasses will change those facts.

Carry on.

Lars997:

The 911 concept as great as it is, is loosing its myth on every other Porsche which is sold day by day. Especially the cheaper models like the Boxster, Cayman, but also the SUVs and Sedans are killing the Sport Character of the brand. 15 years ago you named Porsche in the same sentence with Ferrari and Lamborghini, nowadays you put it into the sentence with Mercedes, VW, BMW. Old days you said Porsche and automatically meant the 911, nowadays you have to name it "Eleven" as Porsche stands for a wide variety. Somehow good, somehow sad. 

The world is different now than 15, 20 or 30 years ago. But anyway Porsche never had the same image as Ferrari or Lamborghini. Performance-wise certain Porsche models were rivals for the supercars but never image-wise. Moreover, the same arguments that are presented now against the diesels etc for degrading the image were also used in the past for the 914, 924, 944 etc.

IMO Porsche and Ferrari are bought by different types of people. If you exclude very rich individuals who can afford many cars in their garage, Ferrari owners are generally more image conscious and fashion conscious than Porsche owners. I am not saying this is good or bad. It's just that the brands are addressed to different buyer segments. Porsche has never been an elitist brand. If someone respects a Turbo S or a GT2 he will go out and buy it not minding about the existence of other lower models. A Ferrari buyer purchases mainly because the whole model range is homogeneously expensive, even if there are equally good cars around. The price of a Ferrari is the raison d'etre of the purchasing decision, so the brand has to remain limited in numbers and very high in price.

"Form follows function"

racerx:

.... Yesterdays reality was if you could afford it you bought the 928 over the 911, it was the superior car in every respect. The Porsche engineers planned it that way and made it that way. It was the reality of the time. No amount of Rose in your glasses will change those facts.

Your passion and devotion for the 928 is admirable

I don't mean to get into a debate about which model is better - personally, I think they are just different i.e. my perception (which may be right or wrong) is that the 928 was a great GT car whereas the 911 is a great sports car.

You know I love the 928 - I even had a poster of it on my bedroom wall

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

reginos:

.... Ferrari owners are generally more image conscious and fashion conscious than Porsche owners. ... It's just that the brands are addressed to different buyer segments.

I think this is true now but has not IMHO always been the case. In the 1980s, a 911 was THE car that investment bankers wanted to be seen in - to the extent that the 911, Perrier mineral water, slicked back hair, Ray Ban Wayfarers, huge 'brick' mobile phones and striped shirts with braces defined that decade

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

racerx:

.... Yesterdays reality was if you could afford it you bought the 928 over the 911, it was the superior car in every respect. The Porsche engineers planned it that way and made it that way. It was the reality of the time. No amount of Rose in your glasses will change those facts.

Your passion and devotion for the 928 is admirable

I don't mean to get into a debate about which model is better - personally, I think they are just different i.e. my perception (which may be right or wrong) is that the 928 was a great GT car whereas the 911 is a great sports car.

You know I love the 928 - I even had a poster of it on my bedroom wall

I don't want to send this thread off course, we have been down that road more than once and I am tired of those discussions.

I will say though that to make your above statement  more precise you would have to have used "was" in place of "is". Todays 911 is the same weight as my 928 and appears physically bigger. It has grown quite a bit to become todays luxury GT at Porsche especially with the 991 interior.

(and anyone who thinks that the 928 was some luxo barge that had any weakness for its day needs to be a passenger in mine)

easy_rider911:

reginos:

.... Ferrari owners are generally more image conscious and fashion conscious than Porsche owners. ... It's just that the brands are addressed to different buyer segments.

I think this is true now but has not IMHO always been the case. In the 1980s, a 911 was THE car that investment bankers wanted to be seen in - to the extent that the 911, Perrier mineral water, slicked back hair, Ray Ban Wayfarers, huge 'brick' mobile phones and striped shirts with braces defined that decade

Yes, there was this aberration in the 80s crazy yuppie era. Typically red 3.2 Carrera preferably  in turbo-look with the big wing.

--

"Form follows function"

racerx:

Yesterdays reality was if you could afford it you bought the 928 over the 911, it was the superior car in every respect. The Porsche engineers planned it that way and made it that way. It was the reality of the time. No amount of Rose in your glasses will change those facts.

Its pointless to try to discuss something that is only on your mind. If your particular reality makes you happy then I'm sure not going to waste my time in giving you a reality check, but Easy explained it very well, the 928 was a GT made during a small time during the history of Porsche and was discontinued, the 911 is a sportcar with racing pedigree and that has been the pivot around which Porsche's history revolved around since almost its very beginning to present date. Two completely different cars, not a simple engine swap, like a guy planning on buying a Panamera does not opt for the 911 and viceversa. Porsche buyers were always sportcar buyers-fans above all else and that is why we still have the 911 today, and still as the flagship for Porsche image

Carlos from Spain:

racerx:

Yesterdays reality was if you could afford it you bought the 928 over the 911, it was the superior car in every respect. The Porsche engineers planned it that way and made it that way. It was the reality of the time. No amount of Rose in your glasses will change those facts.

Its pointless to try to discuss something that is only on your mind. If your particular reality makes you happy then I'm sure not going to waste my time in giving you a reality check, but Easy explained it very well, the 928 was a GT made during a small time during the history of Porsche and was discontinued, the 911 is a sportcar with racing pedigree and that has been the pivot around which Porsche's history revolved around since almost its very beginning to present date. Two completely different cars, not a simple engine swap, like a guy planning on buying a Panamera does not opt for the 911 and viceversa. Porsche buyers were always sportcar buyers-fans above all else and that is why we still have the 911 today, and still as the flagship for Porsche image

To be fair, at that time the 928 was a very advanced car in all respects whereas the contemporary 911s (SC, 3.0 Carrera, 3.2 Carrera and even the 964) had many rough edges in engineering and road manners, in spite of their considerable charisma.

"Form follows function"

Ay yiyi ------ ok ------ this is my reality

It did everything better, accelerated better, stopped better, handled better, was built better. The interiors were not even close. It was as you like to point out originally designed to replace the 911. The very best engineers Porsche had (when you look at results in racing and street car performance and sales vs. their competition) took 7 years to design the best car money could produce with the tech available.

What does nomenclature mean -Today's 911- the 997 is a GT and performs better than an 80's 911 - bigger and same weight as the 80's 928 a pic for demonstration 928 and boxster

Acceleration of stock Porsche cars of the late 1980's

Daesin made the choice this week between a 911 and a better car the 911turbo, I'll bet 85% plus of the 997 owners here would make the same choice if money were no object. But money is an object, a big one for most people, and it was in the 80's so people bought what they could afford.The cheaper lesser car.

The reality of what Porsche saw as kind of equals

The reality on the race track 928 beating 911 TURBO

Anatole Lapine - PORSCHE DESIGN CHIEF

“Give us credit that we learned a bit during the 20 or so years that we built the rear engine sports car and we had a few ideas how to improve on it. That's why 911 drivers don't like the 928, it doesn't feel like it’s handling properly because the onset of all the bad habits of the 911 are pushed much higher up the overall performance curve. It is very hard to make it do the bad things a 911 chassis will do and so it’s perceived to be sluggish or heavy. In fact if you look at the speedo or tach you are actually eating up the terrain at a much higher level with more confidence. That was our goal. "

All nice cars, enjoy the evening

@racerx: I think the comparisons you make between the 928 and the 911 of the same era are absolutely fine - no arguments from me on that front  It's just that Porsche buyers continued to want the 911 in spite of its handling faults.

So, rather than fight the customer's wishes, Porsche decided to change tack: PAG decided to drop the 928 and continue to improve a flawed design - and PAG being the geniuses that they are - they did so to the point where the flawed design is now better than pretty much anything else on the market past or present.

I love the 928 - and it was a really great car for its time - but if you consider the current 997.2 GT3 RS or the 997 GT2 RS, these are not cruisers or GT cars. They are track tools that are as sharp as a surgeon's scalpel. The reality is that the 928 stopped being developed whereas the 911 has continued to be developed dramatically since then. IMvHO, one cannot justifiably claim that the continued evolution of the 911 platform to where the 2010 models are today has not exceeded the 928 by a really significant margin ... the very designers and engineers who came up with the 928 have been busy developing the 911 for the past 20 years to produce the cars that are on sale today. Just my 2 cents 

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

 Racerx, you disappointed me, thats it? I was expecting a 2 page long denial ramble  

Aaaanyway I think I fed you too much excuses to resuscitate the dead 928 into the conversation, we better move on and get back to the Panamera diesel 

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What i'd way rather have a good old diesel over stupid hybrid technology. It doesn't hurt the P branch if it's offered as a choice. But having that choice in the Panamera and Cayenne is a great idea. They are high end luxory vehicles in the end and not really sports cars...

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :)