Crown

Hi Guys,

Putting this in the genric forum as it's a question all...

Am considering PDK on my next Porsche - on the brief drives I've had I've like the gearbox, but am concerned it's 'test drive love' and may not last....

Just wondering on the thoughts that those of you who have come out of manual Prosches into PDK think - would you order PDK on your next Porsche, or return to manual?

Car in question is a Spyder... will not be a daily driver, though deifintely not a garage queen - and once or twice a year may be on track, but by far most of the time spirited driving on cross coutry roads with occaisional motorway use.

ordering the pdk would be a no brainer for me, except having had the continuing incredible four year  experience of driving my 07 tt. the car is a non-daily driver that is pretty much used for, well the enjoyment of driving on great non conjested roads in nm. pdk at least for me would deminish this sort of fun. personally i would find my self using the paddles for awhile then probably just bagging them and drive the car like any automatic. is pdk faster surely. ask yourself how many occasions would you really find your self in where you engage the launch control to aniliate the guy in the opposite lane, that hasn't happened for me. ....good luck with your decision in reality you can't go wrong with either choice.

definitely pdk

I like the manual gear-box (in the GT models in particular). However, I have to admit that a recent test drive in the turbo with PDK opened my eyes how PDK changes the character of the turbo cars.

While I previously assumed that most PDK buyers order PDK for maximum driving comfort (some few, maybe, for better performance) I realized only during this test drive that the whole car changes (speaking of real-life traffic situations) into a very agile, nimble vehicle by adding PDK.

While the typical driver in a manual shifted turbo drives the car at lower revs quite often (who changes gears like a maniac...), waiting for the turbo to pop in, enjoying the "turbo lag", the PDK always keeps the car in the optimal (or close) to rev range. In consequence, the car feels much more lively. As stated above: a very different character of a car shows up.

I have to admit that this aspect, for me, is by far more important than the improved comfort level in tarffic jams etc.

NB: Somehow, PDK in N/A cars does not do the same trick for me. Don't know why...  

 PDK - reason being is that it's tremendous fun to maybe "overshift" a bit playing with up and downshifts although you don't necesserily need to. On the other hand I agree with roadtrip that in a manual you can enjoy the torque by just keeping the gear longer or earlier wheras even my diesel-car downshifts sometimes where I would rather see it work it out with the torque.

Another argument why the next one is probably going to be PDK is simply because wife loves PDK over manual - and men too when sitting aside 

I'd recommend Manual for the Spyder - it is over 60 pounds lighter than PDK and more in keeping with the theme of this car (total driver involvement).

I agree that PDK can have large performance benefits with the turbocharged cars (no loss of boost on upshifts), but not on the Spyder.

--
 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is.

The drivetrain works as if there are no frictions between the engine and the wheels. Smooth and responsive.

I'd never go back to manual. I hope the next generation GT cars are so equipped too.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

reginos:

I hope the next generation GT cars are so equipped too.

 
Not me 

In any event, Porsche knows full well that the GT3 and GT3 RS are not normally bought by the same kind of buyers as those who buy a Carrera, Targa or Turbo. GT3 and GT3 RS buyers are hardcore 

RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

 I left manual over ten years ago and never looked back. I predicted then that manual would become obsolete within 10 years. I was not far off.

It is obsolete technology today. Manual does not have one redeeming feature compared to paddle transmissions. Those who have manual today will change over to paddles.

nberry:

 I left manual over ten years ago and never looked back. I predicted then that manual would become obsolete within 10 years. I was not far off.

It is obsolete technology today. Manual does not have one redeeming feature compared to paddle transmissions. Those who have manual today will change over to paddles.

I totally disagree.

As fast as the PDK is, I found it boring.

I always drive my PDK Panamera in full auto mode. 

Test drove the Ferrari California and switched back to auto mode after 10 minutes of F1 paddle shifting.

The gym has tons of high tech machines to help people keep fit.  Yet most people still prefer to jog outdoor.  

Yes, I will eventually change to paddles.  That's the time when my left leg stop working. 

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

The drivetrain works as if there are no frictions between the engine and the wheels. Smooth and responsive.

 

Interesting perception, because in reality the Manual has less internal friction (this is why the top speed of the PDK is slightly slower for all Porsche models).

And the extra friction of the PDK causes additional heat (as well as power loss) which requires Porsche to fit the PDK with a mandatory gearbox oil cooler - and even then the gearbox has been known to overheat on the track.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello

easy_rider911:

reginos:

I hope the next generation GT cars are so equipped too.

 
Not me 

In any event, Porsche knows full well that the GT3 and GT3 RS are not normally bought by the same kind of buyers as those who buy a Carrera, Targa or Turbo. GT3 and GT3 RS buyers are hardcore 

Porsche don't give a choice of PDK on the GT cars, because it is not technically feasible to marry the GT1 engine with the PDK gearbox. Nothing to do with hardcore clientele.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

 I haven't percieved any handling drawback on the PDK compared to the manual myself in terms of handling, then again my test drive was on mountain roads and have not compared it in a track, and any differences in handling I found were more due the diferences of the regular PASM with the -20mm P17 suspension.

 If you want to be the fasted possible and take over ''better'' cars, PDK will give the extra speed.

If you want more to drive for yourself and just enjoy all the mechanics, get the manual.

I like my PDK, but I also often miss the manual .  It will be a very difficult decision as the what I will get on the next car.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

 I haven't percieved any handling drawback on the PDK compared to the manual myself in terms of handling, then again my test drive was on mountain roads and have not compared it in a track, and any differences in handling I found were more due the diferences of the regular PASM with the -20mm P17 suspension.

 To give an example, I do keep up on the Nurburgring F1 track with the 996 GT3 RS . Some places the 996 GT3 RS is slightly better, and in some parts my 997.2 S PDK is faster.

That shows how fast my car is. I do still get amazed about the efficiency of my car 

On the Nordschlife it is a little bit harder to keep up

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

nberry:

 I left manual over ten years ago and never looked back. I predicted then that manual would become obsolete within 10 years. I was not far off.

It is obsolete technology today. Manual does not have one redeeming feature compared to paddle transmissions. Those who have manual today will change over to paddles.

 Yes your predictions... you also predicted that Porsche would be bankrupt by now due to the path they were taking a few years ago and here you are, with a Turbo Cab yourself, speaking worders of it and Porsche recording profits when other makers are suffering from the global crisis 

Manuals are very much alive and kicking as you can see in this thread, and in fact its standard equipment on all Porsche sportcar models today as it was 10 years ago, and while in your neighborhood you may only see auto boxes in sportcars, in other parts manuals are prefered over auto as is amongst the drivers I know here, just because you can extract enjoyment from one, doesn't mean others can't.

Auto trannies have come a long way and are a great alternative, you don't have to suffer performance loss anymore if you choose an auto and they are much lighter, faster and have a much improved throttle response, but no matter how good the auto is, its never going to be a substitute for a manual, they will be alternatives to each other, for the simple reason that no matter how good the auto is, it still doesn't have a manually operated clutch and stick, without which some people loose a certain part of the involvement and pleasurable driving experience of a sportcar. What I have a hard time understanding is why you feel so threatened by manual trannies that you cannot understand this concept of involvement and pleasure of operating the manual tranny no matter how many times we talk about this. There are other things to do with a sportcar than Starbuck and back 

There are people who genuinely like auto boxes, but there are also other drivers that choose them on a 911 because they have to share their car with their wives, or because they have a back problem, or because they have to do a lot of start and stop commuting with it, etc and for them I'm very happy to see that the auto boxes have improved so much that they don't loose performance anymore, and continue to improve. I say, to each their own, what is great that we can each choose what we like best.

--

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

 I haven't percieved any handling drawback on the PDK compared to the manual myself in terms of handling, then again my test drive was on mountain roads and have not compared it in a track, and any differences in handling I found were more due the diferences of the regular PASM with the -20mm P17 suspension.

 To give an example, I do keep up on the Nurburgring F1 track with the 996 GT3 RS . Some places the 996 GT3 RS is slightly better, and in some parts my 997.2 S PDK is faster.

That shows how fast my car is. I do still get amazed about the efficiency of my car 

On the Nordschlife it is a little bit harder to keep up

I would even say that overall the PDK car may be even faster the the manual in many situations IMO, because what you notice when you drive one is that the PDK is very efficient at delivering the power from the motor to the wheels through the gear changes, the car "feels" more powerful that what it is, and also being auto, you can concentrate on the steering/braking/accelerating more than a manual and that may also help 

Targa Tim:

The gym has tons of high tech machines to help people keep fit.  Yet most people still prefer to jog outdoor.  

Yes, I will eventually change to paddles.  That's the time when my left leg stop working. 

So true 

Carlos from Spain:

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

 I haven't percieved any handling drawback on the PDK compared to the manual myself in terms of handling, then again my test drive was on mountain roads and have not compared it in a track, and any differences in handling I found were more due the diferences of the regular PASM with the -20mm P17 suspension.

 To give an example, I do keep up on the Nurburgring F1 track with the 996 GT3 RS . Some places the 996 GT3 RS is slightly better, and in some parts my 997.2 S PDK is faster.

That shows how fast my car is. I do still get amazed about the efficiency of my car 

On the Nordschlife it is a little bit harder to keep up

I would even say that overall the PDK car may be even faster the the manual in many situations IMO, because what you notice when you drive one is that the PDK is very efficient at delivering the power from the motor to the wheels through the gear changes, the car "feels" more powerful that what it is, and also being auto, you can concentrate on the steering/braking/accelerating more than a manual and that may also help 

 My view is that (for an experienced driver) PDK has exactly one major performance advantage: it reduces upshift times which brings a significant advantage at higher speeds. This advantage is even larger in turbo charged cars (given the lag characteristics of the turbo system)  The remaining diffierences are more a matter of taste. Also, an experienced driver should not lose time in a manual gear box equipped car in slower parts of the track 

Carlos from Spain:

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

 I haven't percieved any handling drawback on the PDK compared to the manual myself in terms of handling, then again my test drive was on mountain roads and have not compared it in a track, and any differences in handling I found were more due the diferences of the regular PASM with the -20mm P17 suspension.

 To give an example, I do keep up on the Nurburgring F1 track with the 996 GT3 RS . Some places the 996 GT3 RS is slightly better, and in some parts my 997.2 S PDK is faster.

That shows how fast my car is. I do still get amazed about the efficiency of my car 

On the Nordschlife it is a little bit harder to keep up

I would even say that overall the PDK car may be even faster the the manual in many situations IMO, because what you notice when you drive one is that the PDK is very efficient at delivering the power from the motor to the wheels through the gear changes, the car "feels" more powerful that what it is, and also being auto, you can concentrate on the steering/braking/accelerating more than a manual and that may also help 

 Exactly .   That's the good part of these new auto-boxes . They manage to squeeze the best out of the engine and tranny and so , the car's performance jumps one step above . Ask Porsche_Jeck how he felt when we drove off at the Ring, he in his 997 Gt3 and me in my Carrera S ( he ''refused'' to look on the side of his car, as there I was  .... then the twisties arrived I I went gently back into my place  )

But... the pleasure of  manual shifting is nearly always missing. The efficiency of the PDK does not take away the missing drivers envolvment.... Maybe one day they'll manage to make them with a 'real ' manual option  

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

MKSGR:

Carlos from Spain:

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

The PDK car feels more light and nimble, contrary to what the real weight is. 

 That would be more nimble on the throttle, not on the handling (ie. weight trasnfers, steering, etc).

Yes, nimble on the throttle,thank you for the correction, and this is more so on the 2WD models. But I don't think handling suffers at all.

 I haven't percieved any handling drawback on the PDK compared to the manual myself in terms of handling, then again my test drive was on mountain roads and have not compared it in a track, and any differences in handling I found were more due the diferences of the regular PASM with the -20mm P17 suspension.

 To give an example, I do keep up on the Nurburgring F1 track with the 996 GT3 RS . Some places the 996 GT3 RS is slightly better, and in some parts my 997.2 S PDK is faster.

That shows how fast my car is. I do still get amazed about the efficiency of my car 

On the Nordschlife it is a little bit harder to keep up

I would even say that overall the PDK car may be even faster the the manual in many situations IMO, because what you notice when you drive one is that the PDK is very efficient at delivering the power from the motor to the wheels through the gear changes, the car "feels" more powerful that what it is, and also being auto, you can concentrate on the steering/braking/accelerating more than a manual and that may also help 

 My view is that (for an experienced driver) PDK has exactly one major performance advantage: it reduces upshift times which brings a significant advantage at higher speeds. This advantage is even larger in turbo charged cars (given the lag characteristics of the turbo system)  The remaining diffierences are more a matter of taste. Also, an experienced driver should not lose time in a manual gear box equipped car in slower parts of the track 

 I was always faster on exit of the corners.  I don't know if it was because I gained the extra 10' of sec because of the faster gear change or because the gear box was in the better rev range .

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

My take on this: if performance is a main priority and if you drive mainly in the city, PDK all the way it is. For casual fun, especially outside the city and on the track, manual could be more satisfactory to some drivers. From a comfort point of view, PDK auto mode is a real treat.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

I don't think anyone can be as efficient in changing gears manually as a DCT system.

However, because the vast majority of people who drive today have spent many years using manual gearboxes the gear changing action sequence has been well implanted into the brain cells and a perfect execution of this action is often a source of pleasure.

As the Gaming generation grow and get into the driving seat of cars, the manual gearstick and the clutch pedal will be  gradually relegated to museums together with other motoring things of the past. The reason DCT have not penetrated more in smaller cars is for pure reason of cost. They cost a large % of the price of a Polo or a Fabia for example.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

The reason DCT have not penetrated more in smaller cars is for pure reason of cost. They cost a large % of the price of a Polo or a Fabia for example.

I do not agree fully here.

Did you drove Polo 1.4 with DSG? Try it. You will see that sometimes that underpowered engine can be a problem for DCT implementation. My mother in law bought Polo 1.2 TSI(105ps) with DSG recently. It is an excellent implementation of the same gearbox. But, 1.2TSI is engine with much more torque then 1.4...

Price is an issue but, IMHO most engine in small cars are way too waek for proper DCT implementation.

Carlos my man, the bankruptcy prediction was tongue in cheek but probably would have occurred but for the Cayenne and the VW thing.

Regarding manual, what I am saying is in the near future it will not be available unless you want to pay big bucks for it. Ferrari has stopped producing manual and others will follow suit.

Only cash strapped car makers will continue to offer manual because of lack of resources to provide paddles. 

I've always been I die hard manual driver in all my previous porches and other cars, but decided to take the move and try PDK. I did testdrive PDK equipped cars before my final decision and actually had mixed feelings. Now however after having had the PDK for several months and getting to know all aspects of how the PDK-box behave in different situations has turned my previous uncertanties into absolute love. I would never go back to manual again -seriously.

I also find it very inspiring to be able to keep both hands firmly on the steeringwheel and being able to up/down shift without taking my right hand off the wheel when changing gears... Also knowing that the gearchanges are faster than I would ever be able to manage manually is in my book never negative. 

Except for when I'm commuting my car in jammed traffic I always engage Sport Plus and manual mode and prefer to handle the gearchange this way and find it very inspiring and involving. But this is really subjective in all perspective and all respect to people who don't prefer this route and stick to manual box...

But as many has said before, Sport Chrono is an absolute must. Doing manual mode in normal mode is just plain boring and slow and I really don't understand why Porsche decided to not have the sport-modes standard on all pdk-cars. Why would they risk to get bad reviews just as a result of having a reviewer testing a car without SC and complain on slow shifts in manual mode?

--
 

Current: 997.2 C2S Meteorgrey/Black - PDK, PSE, LSD, SportChrono, Nav, Bose, etc.

Sold: 997C2S Black/Black - PSE, Adaptives, PCCB, -20mm/LSD, Short-shifter, SportChrono, Nav, BOSE, etc.

All my previous Porsche were manual, and before PDK, it would be a sin to have my Porsche with  Tip box. But i don´t regret having choose PDK on ly last car. From time to time, I still miss manual, but with PDK you have a new driving aproach that pleases me alot, you become faster on the road and use the engine power more frequently and easily without any effort.

And there are some funny features with PDK like the downshifts and the "bleeps" it makes, or the several settings it provides according to your driving mood.

Anyway, if you have already a powerful DD car like an M5 or CT and Spyder will be a toy for weekends, maybe a manual makes more sence.

J.Seven