Crown

above bmw paduttons also come on the 6 gear auto.

At the end of the day, whether someone likes a manual shifter, PDK buttons, PDK paddles etc is basically just a matter of preference. There are no objective right or wrong answers. The answers are subjective to each one of us.

So the transmission/user interface debate becomes a never-ending circle leading to no clear-cut conclusions.

IMO the debate itself just helps me understand what others like and why. It makes me question my own reasons for what I prefer.

But beyond that, I guess the discussion itself just brings us together in mutual respect for our different perspectives 

 
RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

i disagree a bit. there are good interfaces and less good interfaces.

a small keyboard is harder and less intuitive to use than a full size keyboard.......

paddles are simply better than buttons.....

You could run in your Gucci loafers, but I prefer Nike runners.

Likewise, stationary paddles are proper equipment, using buttons are like running in Gucci loafers. Doable, but not proper.

intouch1:

i disagree a bit. there are good interfaces and less good interfaces.

a small keyboard is harder and less intuitive to use than a full size keyboard.......

paddles are simply better than buttons.....

An advantage of buttons is the +/- on both sides which especially in a series of curves (e.g. hillclimb) is very helpful IMO.

reginos:

Arshad:

I am also considering changing to the paddles interface, but only after test driving a car with it, as it seems an issue with the paddles is a delay in engagement of gears.  I find no such delay whilst using the buttons or the gear-stick

I didn't know there is an issue with delay? Is this well documented somewhere?

Well, not yet documented officially, but mentioned in Automobilismo Magazine and discussed in this forum here

and here

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20143749/9972_Turbo__Totally_changed_PASM_And_Holy_PDK_acceleration/page1.html

reginos:

intouch1:

i disagree a bit. there are good interfaces and less good interfaces.

a small keyboard is harder and less intuitive to use than a full size keyboard.......

paddles are simply better than buttons.....

An advantage of buttons is the +/- on both sides which especially in a series of curves (e.g. hillclimb) is very helpful IMO.

Disagree here. Left down, right up is the best way to go, but you can get used to everything I guess. Only if you have more than one car with flappy paddle gear box, only one system is helpful.
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

intouch1:

... there are good interfaces and less good interfaces.

.......

paddles are simply better than buttons.....

Personally, I agree with you that paddles are better than buttons but there are others who are perfectly happy with the buttons e.g. reginos.

Again, IMHO, the issue is that what is a "good" interface in the eyes of a person will vary from one person to the next - because we each are used to different things, we have different expectations, different styles of driving, different uses for our cars etc etc. I'm just glad that we have a choice!

Personally, I love my manual transmission more than anything else 

 
RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

easy_rider911:

Personally, I love my manual transmission more than anything else 

right on!

easy_rider911:

Personally, I love my manual transmission more than anything else 

Pity, if you were thinking of upgrading to the new Turbo S

reginos:

easy_rider911:

Personally, I love my manual transmission more than anything else 

Pity, if you were thinking of upgrading to the new Turbo S

LOL  But an upgrade for someone like me would be a 997.2 GT3 or, better still (when it's launched) a 991 GT3! 

Just IMO, the purest incarnation (in today's model range) of what a 911 should be is a GT3  And, of course, it's only available with a manual transmission 

 
RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Being the devil's advocate - what if the 991 GT3 only comes with PDK?  As far as pure circuit times go, doesn't it make sense for their most track-focussed car to have PDK?

easy_rider911:

Just IMO, the purest incarnation (in today's model range) of what a 911 should be is a GT3  And, of course, it's only available with a manual transmission 

I don't know if you read the 911 & Porsche World magazine but there was a feature in the March 2010 issue about spending 48 hours with the current GT3. It highlights all the GT3's impracticalities away from the track or odd fast drive on B roads (where the GT3 shines as expected) even compared to cars like the R8 and Gallardo (suspension stiffness on typical British roads, gear selection when cold, stiff controls etc).

So not all is rosy with a GT3 ownership, unless you are a frequent track driver and you own at least one more car for daily use. And if you own a GT3, your daily driver cannot be any old supermini but you'll have to invest more money to buy another decent car. Besides the extra cost, in big cities this will create the additional problem of where to park your 2 cars, I suppose.

For me the best Porsche is the Carrera S (or 4S in certain areas) with Powerkit and PDK. The Turbo is only  if you live in a country/area where you can use its huge  performance and still get away with it from the Law.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

I am the contrarian here: The Porsche redundant buttons are great and make sense. If Ferrari and Lambo and the others had chosen redundant buttons and Porsche had later brought the L/R paddles people would complain anyway. It's all about what one is used to.

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

ADias:

I am the contrarian here: The Porsche redundant buttons are great and make sense. If Ferrari and Lambo and the others had chosen redundant buttons and Porsche had later brought the L/R paddles people would complain anyway. It's all about what one is used to.

 

 Not true.

Let it go, Porsche puddles are not the best system. Could you live with it? Of course, but why compromise...

Carlos from Spain:

Turns out Wiendolin Wiedekin did not want to hear about paddles, he said he tried them in a Ferrari not long ago and they were horribble But after much insisting, he managed to get the concesion to get paddles for the Turbo if only optional.

 

I knew the explanation had to be something like this... an economist making engineering calls about a sportcar

 

Good riddance (I hope you had the time of your life)

Thanks for the info Carlos, interesting read.

Left - down, right  - up is the only way to go...

--

10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

20 GOTO 10

30 RUN

SciFrog:

ADias:

I am the contrarian here: The Porsche redundant buttons are great and make sense. If Ferrari and Lambo and the others had chosen redundant buttons and Porsche had later brought the L/R paddles people would complain anyway. It's all about what one is used to.

 

 Not true.

Let it go, Porsche puddles are not the best system. Could you live with it? Of course, but why compromise...

Your opinion, against mine, and I do not think that your opinion has more value than mine.

How many miles do you have driving a PDK? Please tell me it's at least 1000 miles and plenty of tight mountain roads. If you do not have such experience, do not bother to reply. 

--

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

ADias:

SciFrog:

ADias:

I am the contrarian here: The Porsche redundant buttons are great and make sense. If Ferrari and Lambo and the others had chosen redundant buttons and Porsche had later brought the L/R paddles people would complain anyway. It's all about what one is used to.

 

 Not true.

Let it go, Porsche puddles are not the best system. Could you live with it? Of course, but why compromise...

 

Your opinion, against mine, and I do not think that your opinion has more value than mine.

How many miles do you have driving a PDK? Please tell me it's at least 1000 miles and plenty of tight mountain roads. If you do not have such experience, do not bother to reply. 

--

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

 PDK is great, but the puddles make you drive in auto mode...

I did not do that many miles of course, but like said above, you can get used to anything. I am even using the horrible tiptronic buttons on the Cayenne once and a while. The problem is you can't change gear safely if the wheel is turned 180d. And please don't say use the stick then. With proper paddles, there is no need for a stick (Ferrari AM and Lambo have known this for years). Space is at a premium in a car, the stick simply has to go, it serves no function. Even WR begged the bean counters for paddles...

reginos:

.

 

BMW use a similar button system on their automatics and the new DCT and nobody cares to comment on it.

BTW, I am thinking of retrofitting the new paddle wheel for the looks and the slimmer size. If I do that I shall be equally happy with the functionality of the new interface.

 

 

BMW used a similar push/pull system as Porsche, true. But at least the change up/down was intuitive (IMO), which followed the gravitational forces, as in you pushed forward to change down when braking, and you pulled when accelerating. Porsche had it the other way around, which I found very counter-intuitive when driving a PDK car.

But BMW has changed as well now and offers +/- on the DCT and on the automatic transmissions. So hopefully it will become a industry standard .

10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

20 GOTO 10

30 RUN

 I suspect in about fives years, manual will be a thing of the past as will be the buttons. Also, paddle operation will be standardized for all cars.

SciFrog:

ADias:

SciFrog:

ADias:

I am the contrarian here: The Porsche redundant buttons are great and make sense. If Ferrari and Lambo and the others had chosen redundant buttons and Porsche had later brought the L/R paddles people would complain anyway. It's all about what one is used to.

 

 Not true.

Let it go, Porsche puddles are not the best system. Could you live with it? Of course, but why compromise...

 

Your opinion, against mine, and I do not think that your opinion has more value than mine.

How many miles do you have driving a PDK? Please tell me it's at least 1000 miles and plenty of tight mountain roads. If you do not have such experience, do not bother to reply. 

--

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

 PDK is great, but the puddles make you drive in auto mode...

I did not do that many miles of course, but like said above, you can get used to anything. I am even using the horrible tiptronic buttons on the Cayenne once and a while. The problem is you can't change gear safely if the wheel is turned 180d. And please don't say use the stick then. With proper paddles, there is no need for a stick (Ferrari AM and Lambo have known this for years). Space is at a premium in a car, the stick simply has to go, it serves no function. Even WR begged the bean counters for paddles...

I'm sorry but you make no sense. As I expected, you do not know what you talk about. I have 1500 miles with a PDK and most of those miles on tight mountain roads. I agree with you though that you cannot change gears safely with the old tiptronic buttons, and neither can you with L/R paddles attached to the wheel, when the wheel is rotated a good bit, like 180deg, but... you surely can shift safely with the PDK push/pull redundant buttons. It makes no difference where they are - it's always push to upshift, pull to downshift, on either button. That  is a great foolproof advantage.

I long learned that it's a waste of time to rationalize and share one's true PDK experience with manual drivers who have no stakeholding with PDK but always on the ready to criticize what they know nothing about. 

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

left down right up 1-2-3-4- left down right up 1-2-3-4

ADias:

SciFrog:

ADias:

SciFrog:

ADias:

I am the contrarian here: The Porsche redundant buttons are great and make sense. If Ferrari and Lambo and the others had chosen redundant buttons and Porsche had later brought the L/R paddles people would complain anyway. It's all about what one is used to.

 

 Not true.

Let it go, Porsche puddles are not the best system. Could you live with it? Of course, but why compromise...

 

Your opinion, against mine, and I do not think that your opinion has more value than mine.

How many miles do you have driving a PDK? Please tell me it's at least 1000 miles and plenty of tight mountain roads. If you do not have such experience, do not bother to reply. 

--

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

 PDK is great, but the puddles make you drive in auto mode...

I did not do that many miles of course, but like said above, you can get used to anything. I am even using the horrible tiptronic buttons on the Cayenne once and a while. The problem is you can't change gear safely if the wheel is turned 180d. And please don't say use the stick then. With proper paddles, there is no need for a stick (Ferrari AM and Lambo have known this for years). Space is at a premium in a car, the stick simply has to go, it serves no function. Even WR begged the bean counters for paddles...

 

I'm sorry but you make no sense. As I expected, you do not know what you talk about. I have 1500 miles with a PDK and most of those miles on tight mountain roads. I agree with you though that you cannot change gears safely with the old tiptronic buttons, and neither can you with L/R paddles attached to the wheel, when the wheel is rotated a good bit, like 180deg, but... you surely can shift safely with the PDK push/pull redundant buttons. It makes no difference where they are - it's always push to upshift, pull to downshift, on either button. That  is a great foolproof advantage.

I long learned that it's a waste of time to rationalize and share one's true PDK experience with manual drivers who have no stakeholding with PDK but always on the ready to criticize what they know nothing about. 

Hmm... I think that you are VERY SUBJECTIVE here...

1. Why is Walter Rohrl claiming that PDK steering wheel with buttons is simply plain wrong? He says that buttons do not make any sense-and I agree with him. BUT, you do not...

2. Why is Porsche now offering paddles steering wheel as standard on 997.2 Turbo S? Marketing? Come on...

3. 99% of current 997.2 Turbo PDK orders are with optional paddles steering wheel. All those people must be wrong if you are right?

...and little fact story for you: I drove with my friend, he in his 997.2CS and me in loaner 997.2CS-both with PDK and button steering wheel. We were driving on very curvy mountain road in Croatia(Gorski Kotar for those who know the region). He was using manual Sport + mode and I was using D Sport + mode. Guess who was faster?  Me with D Sport + of course...

Even Porsche admits that fastest mode for 7.50min Ring time with 997.2CS PDK is D Sport+. So, use of buttons or paddles is not the key element. Except if you came from manual car...

 this wheel with paddles is nice but there are no buttons on it... its bad

KresoF1:

 He was using manual Sport + mode and I was using D Sport + mode. Guess who was faster?  Me with D Sport + of course...

Even Porsche admits that fastest mode for 7.50min Ring time with 997.2CS PDK is D Sport+. So, use of buttons or paddles is not the key element. Except if you came from manual car...

Just a clarification. Using Sport + in manual doesn't make any difference compared to Sport.

In Sport + the throttle map doesn't  change, it's the same as in Sport. What changes is the gear changing logic in Auto (D) and of course it offers the LC facility.

So selecting D+ and using manual mode no difference for your friend.

The Porsche software in D Sport+ was changing gears for you more efficiently than your friend's brain.

KresoF1:

1. Why is Walter Rohrl claiming that PDK steering wheel with buttons is simply plain wrong? He says that buttons do not make any sense-and I agree with him. BUT, you do not...

Could it be that WR is now ringing PAG's new cash register bell? 

Besides... I think for myself. For me, the dual redundant buttons push/pull make sense. They just work.

Please note that this is my opinion and experience, nothing else. It appears that I am in the minority, but so be it. There's a choice - buttons or paddles. And before that another choice - Manual or PDK. Choice is good. 

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

reginos:

KresoF1:

 He was using manual Sport + mode and I was using D Sport + mode. Guess who was faster?  Me with D Sport + of course...

Even Porsche admits that fastest mode for 7.50min Ring time with 997.2CS PDK is D Sport+. So, use of buttons or paddles is not the key element. Except if you came from manual car...

Just a clarification. Using Sport + in manual doesn't make any difference compared to Sport.

In Sport + the throttle map doesn't  change, it's the same as in Sport. What changes is the gear changing logic in Auto (D) and of course it offers the LC facility.

So selecting D+ and using manual mode no difference for your friend.

The Porsche software in D Sport+ was changing gears for you more efficiently than your friend's brain.

You are absolutely correct, I only add that Sport plus shifts may be slightly faster. PDK is very multifaceted and only people owning PDK cars and having significant seat time on them, understand PDK fully and appreciate it. All others' comments are in the category of what we in the US call 'Monday morning quarterbacks'. 

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

Next would be the stop watch on the dash which was his idea too.

Ron (Houston):

Next would be the stop watch on the dash which was his idea too.

 I doubt it Ron. He was all about parts count reduction.

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

ADias:

Ron (Houston):

Next would be the stop watch on the dash which was his idea too.

 I doubt it Ron. He was all about parts count reduction.

 But not when the additional parts were "optional extras at additional cost to the customer". 

fritz