Crown

I did not know this, but now it all makes a lot of sense

http://www.revistaautopasion.com/porsche-911-turbo-demasiado-facil_id31796/walter-r%C3%B6rhl-y-el-pdk..._id1334369

For those that don't read spanish I will translate. Basically the reporter of the magazine was confused why an efficient and race bred brand like Porsche would put shift buttons of the steering wheel of the PDK sportcars so he asked Walter Rohrl about it. Rohrl said the if it wasn't for him the 997TT would not have paddles. That in the initial tests he was disgusted by the buttons. He told the ingeneers, and they agreed with him, but they told him you go and tell the "boss" yourself if you want to
Turns out Wiendolin Wiedekin did not want to hear about paddles, he said he tried them in a Ferrari not long ago and they were horribble But after much insisting, he managed to get the concesion to get paddles for the Turbo if only optional.

I knew the explanation had to be something like this... an economist making engineering calls about a sportcar

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 Unbelievable!

Decisions made based on personal bias and not what is good for the car. I also suspect that since Ferrari came out first with the paddles, the cultural ego of Porsche would not allow them to follow suit. They would stick to their stupid buttons until hell freezes over. Of course, none of this would matter if there was money to be made i.e. make it an option.

His name was so appropriate.....WiedeKING

Not really a secret, ever since Ferrari came out with the perfect paddles, left down right up, and stationary mounted on the column, no one else wants to do it fearing people calling them copying Ferrari.

Lambo did it, because they want the best for the driver, and don't care if people say they copy Ferrari or not.

Porsche didn't want to do proper paddles simply because they don't want to copy Ferrari, customers be damn. Same can be said for Mercedes and pretty much everyone else. They do however have an alibi: their customers wants to do the shifting, up and down, with one hand because their other hand more than likely will be occupied with something else, like cell phones, coffee, whatever.

BMW copied the paddles, but modify the design and put it on the wheel and call it their own innovation. Horrible idea, worst than no paddles. By mounting them on the wheel, the paddles became too close to the wheel itself, no enough clearance for fingers. Plus, they spin with the wheel and what's left became right and up became down on the other side.

Whoopsy:

Not really a secret, ever since Ferrari came out with the perfect paddles, left down right up, and stationary mounted on the column, no one else wants to do it fearing people calling them copying Ferrari.

Lambo did it, because they want the best for the driver, and don't care if people say they copy Ferrari or not.

Porsche didn't want to do proper paddles simply because they don't want to copy Ferrari, customers be damn. Same can be said for Mercedes and pretty much everyone else. They do however have an alibi: their customers wants to do the shifting, up and down, with one hand because their other hand more than likely will be occupied with something else, like cell phones, coffee, whatever.

BMW copied the paddles, but modify the design and put it on the wheel and call it their own innovation. Horrible idea, worst than no paddles. By mounting them on the wheel, the paddles became too close to the wheel itself, no enough clearance for fingers. Plus, they spin with the wheel and what's left became right and up became down on the other side.

I agree that the Porsche decision of buttons was likely a stubborness and fear of Ferrari-copy,  but the decision to mount paddles on column  vs wheel seems to be not so clear.... Audi and others also mount paddles on the steering wheel.   Reading many road tests of all systems, it seems the testers (and likely customers) cannot really decide which mounting is best as you can find testers that favour each.   One guess is that which you like best depends a bit on your driving style and how you hold the wheel (shuffle steering etc.), and perhaps whether your driving roads have lots of hairpins vs mostly open curves... but these are only guesses.  

2010 Audi S5,  2002 M Coupe

4trac:

Whoopsy:

Not really a secret, ever since Ferrari came out with the perfect paddles, left down right up, and stationary mounted on the column, no one else wants to do it fearing people calling them copying Ferrari.

Lambo did it, because they want the best for the driver, and don't care if people say they copy Ferrari or not.

Porsche didn't want to do proper paddles simply because they don't want to copy Ferrari, customers be damn. Same can be said for Mercedes and pretty much everyone else. They do however have an alibi: their customers wants to do the shifting, up and down, with one hand because their other hand more than likely will be occupied with something else, like cell phones, coffee, whatever.

BMW copied the paddles, but modify the design and put it on the wheel and call it their own innovation. Horrible idea, worst than no paddles. By mounting them on the wheel, the paddles became too close to the wheel itself, no enough clearance for fingers. Plus, they spin with the wheel and what's left became right and up became down on the other side.

I agree that the Porsche decision of buttons was likely a stubborness and fear of Ferrari-copy,  but the decision to mount paddles on column  vs wheel seems to be not so clear.... Audi and others also mount paddles on the steering wheel.   Reading many road tests of all systems, it seems the testers (and likely customers) cannot really decide which mounting is best as you can find testers that favour each.   One guess is that which you like best depends a bit on your driving style and how you hold the wheel (shuffle steering etc.), and perhaps whether your driving roads have lots of hairpins vs mostly open curves... but these are only guesses.  

I fully agree with Woopsy .

But the reason I think Porsche mounted the paddles on the steering wheel is because of costs only .

They had to offer this option but if they would of mounted the paddles on the column they would of had to make many changes...actually have a complete different set up , as for now, with the paddles on the steering wheel, it was a very cheap and easy change as they only needed to squash it on the existing setting.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

My post will be probably pretty contraversial...

IMHO:

-paddles on steering column-only with max. 2 turns from lock to lock-example Ferrari 458 Italia

-paddles on steering wheel-only with more then 2.5 turns from lock to lock-example Audi R8

Think about it...

Buttons and that ugly stop watch, both need to go but it seems they don't.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

100%  agree with RC! I hate both the buttons and the damn ward!

 I believe the new MB SLS has the paddles on the steering wheel.

I am not sure whether it makes a difference regarding the performance of the car. However, I do agree that with the paddles mounted on the steering wheel, they could interfere with steering depending on how you hold the wheel.

Kreso, I am still trying to figure out your post. Why would a half turn more make a difference as to where the paddles are mounted?

nberry:

Kreso, I am still trying to figure out your post. Why would a half turn more make a difference as to where the paddles are mounted?

Nick,

try to do some driving with Audi R8 that has 3.25 turns from lock to lock. You will see that it is far better that R Tronic paddles are attached to the steering wheel... Since English is actually my third language it is difficult for me to describe what I mean totally...

458 Italia has only 2 turns from lock to lock. This means that you are using using less steering then on R8 for example. Also it means that paddles on steering column is more natural solution for 458.

now even the cayenne is receiving an ugly wart.....

Ah, now I see what you are saying. Your point now makes sense. 

Pentium:

100%  agree with RC! I hate both the buttons and the damn ward!

That " wart " on the dash is to remind you that you had to pay $1K for essentially a " sport " button that every other manufacturer includes " free"  !

Hey I already knew that story about Wiedeking.

For me the most important thing is that you only have one possibility to change gears at one side of the steering wheel - left side to change down, right side change up. If it's a paddle or a button only comes in second place. I prefer paddles though. And if these paddles should be fixed to the steering column or the steering wheel, depends on the turns from lock to lock as Kreso already said and the size of the paddles. If paddles are big enough, there's no reason to put them on the steering wheel.

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The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Whoopsy:

Not really a secret, ever since Ferrari came out with the perfect paddles, left down right up, and stationary mounted on the column, no one else wants to do it fearing people calling them copying Ferrari.

Lambo did it, because they want the best for the driver, and don't care if people say they copy Ferrari or not.

Volkswagen features fixed steering paddles on the Phaeton and its flashy derivative, the Bentley Continental and Flying Spur.

Lambo is under Volkswagen, not a surprise they use that arrangement. Piech maybe an evil member of the Porsche family, he is still quite a racing engineer, he do understands what's best for driver.

R8 is the exception, remember the official word is that it is NOT related to the Gallardo, so of course they need to change the paddle arrangement in order to separate them.

I do appreciate Porsche's decision to include shifting function on the PDK gear stick, the stick stays in the same place no matter how the wheel is turned, so you always knows where to up/down shift. Same can be said for R8's and BMW's versions. They knew the short comings of the horrible paddle arrangement and did something right to relief the pain.

Surprised that manufacturers of  left/- and right /+  paddle shifters haven't been sued by lawyers representing the one-armed drivers of the world.

They can drive/shift   the Tip and PDK button cars , though !

Now why would they buy those left down right up cars in the first place anyway? They knew in advance they cannot get to both paddles, these cars should not even be on their shopping list.

Do people without legs sue car manufacturers for putting the pedals on the floor where they cannot reach?

Do people without arms sue because they cannot control the wheels without arms?

Do tall people sue Lotus because the Elise do not provide enough head room for them?

Handicapped drivers do drive, they get their car specially modified to suit their needs, so if they really want a Ferrari 430 with F1 transmission, I am sure they can find someone to mod the car. Or just leave it in Auto.

The stick on th ecenter console should also go . Ther eis no need for it with paddles. It looks ugly + exactly  like an automatic stick .

Replace it with  three buttons. One for parc , one for neutral , one for reverse

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

The stick on th ecenter console should also go . Ther eis no need for it with paddles. It looks ugly + exactly  like an automatic stick .

Replace it with  three buttons. One for parc , one for neutral , one for reverse

I really like shifting with the stick - it has a much better tactile feel to it than the buttons.

In fact, on my daily commute, that's exactly how I drive it - in manual, sports on, PASM normal, PSE on, and change using the stick.

Personally, after 1 year of using the buttons I cannot find anything wrong with their functionality. I believe, I am qualified enough to comment about this subject as i am one of the relatively few persons here who own a PDK car and  use it every day as my main mode of transport under mixed circumstances. So, I find this debate entertaining but utterly useless and inept to be honest.

What is wrong with the button steering wheel is its low-quality plastic material for the center and the buttons as well as the fact that because of the buttons it is thicker at the 9 and 3 positions and somewhat inconvenient  to rest your hands.

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It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Reginos, you have to realise that there can be more than one correct opinion on this since part is subjective, I wouldn't call Walter Rohl's opinion inept. Also, there hasn't been a more controvese subject with the 997 facelift that the buttons of the PDK, thats for a reason, nobody else in the industry opts for buttons or nobody in racing opts for the buttons either and thats for a reason... there is a saying here that translates to, if the river sounds then its because it carries water. Unfortunately the call to use the buttons in the PDK was not up to the engineers or test pilots who know what they are doing, its was because an economist had a "brilliant idea" and he was the boss.

Carlos from Spain:

Reginos, you have to realise that there can be more than one correct opinion on this since part is subjective, I wouldn't call Walter Rohl's opinion inept. Also, there hasn't been a more controvese subject with the 997 facelift that the buttons of the PDK, thats for a reason, nobody else in the industry opts for buttons or nobody in racing opts for the buttons either and thats for a reason... there is a saying here that translates to, if the river sounds then its because it carries water. Unfortunately the call to use the buttons in the PDK was not up to the engineers or test pilots who know what they are doing, its was because an economist had a "brilliant idea" and he was the boss.

Carlos, I am not saying that the button system is better than the paddle or vice versa. It is IMO a perfectly functional interface without serious drawbacks and therefore for me it is a non-issue. It is just that disproportional importance has been attached to the subject on internet forums.

BMW use a similar button system on their automatics and the new DCT and nobody cares to comment on it.

BTW, I am thinking of retrofitting the new paddle wheel for the looks and the slimmer size. If I do that I shall be equally happy with the functionality of the new interface.

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It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

I see what you mean now reginos, and I agree that there are owners who can be perfectly happy with the buttons and its no big deal. But for the same reason, there are others to whom it can be a big issue (for different reasons) and I can understand them, and on top of it Porsche not only made the buttons standard instead of optional, but also the paddles were not even offered (except now in the Turbo).

The reason its no big deal in normal automatics or non sportcars its because they are not sporty anyway, so the interface does not play such an important role. Its like in the Cayenne, nobody complains about the buttons in the Cayenne's Tip, because they are perfectly fine in that type of car and tranny. But when you get into secuentials, everybody uses paddles in order to take full advantage of what it brings to the table.

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reginos, car pictured above is hardly a sportscar. i had the same in my X6 50i.

but in a 911 i think only paddles are 'correct'

intouch1:

reginos, car pictured above is hardly a sportscar. i had the same in my X6 50i.

but in a 911 i think only paddles are 'correct'

It's a 335i which is not up to 911 level but it's a Cayman rival. The Porsche buttons were criticized across the whole range not only on 911s.

But anyway I don't think it would cost BMW anything to use paddles if this concept was the only correct one

I am also considering changing to the paddles interface, but only after test driving a car with it, as it seems an issue with the paddles is a delay in engagement of gears.  I find no such delay whilst using the buttons or the gear-stick

Reginos, I also find the buttons too plasticky.  And also whilst driving on a track, especially if I have gloves on, I accidentally depress the buttons and up-shift.

reginos:

intouch1:

reginos, car pictured above is hardly a sportscar. i had the same in my X6 50i.

but in a 911 i think only paddles are 'correct'

It's a 335i which is not up to 911 level but it's a Cayman rival. The Porsche buttons were criticized across the whole range not only on 911s.

But anyway I don't think it would cost BMW anything to use paddles if this concept was the only correct one

 I believe the just released 2011 facelifted 335 coupes and cabs  now come with paddles instead of those above pictured buttons for the DCT.

Arshad:

I am also considering changing to the paddles interface, but only after test driving a car with it, as it seems an issue with the paddles is a delay in engagement of gears.  I find no such delay whilst using the buttons or the gear-stick

I didn't know there is an issue with delay? Is this well documented somewhere?

Reginos, I also find the buttons too plasticky.  And also whilst driving on a track, especially if I have gloves on, I accidentally depress the buttons and up-shift.

This happened to me only once but I can see what you mean especially with racing gloves.