Crown

fritz:

That delay must have been caused by some other factor, because the buttons and paddles are surely  just plain vanilla electrical switches passing a brief electrical impulse to the electronic control unit when a shift is initiated by the driver.

 

It may be perception only, but the extra travel on the paddles versus a click of a button made it feel that way 

cannga:

Gen. 2 PASM: ***Totally*** changed and improved from previous system. Gen. 1 PASM in C2S/Turbo/GT2 in my opinion is at best a work in progress. In all 3 cars, my impression is the Firm setting is jittery/choppy/nervous.
In contrast, gen. 2 PASM Firm setting is very much useable on surface street. Normal and Firm are "closer" together in overall stiffness (similar to Bilstein Damptronic), and not opposite ends of the spectrum. The firm setting has no nervousness at all.

What I meant by the above statement is as followed. On a scale of 1 to 10 for overall sense of "stiffness" of the suspension, 1 being soft and 10 stiff; my impression of the PASM settings, between Normal and FIrm, would be ROUGHLY (please don't nit pick ):

997.1 Turbo Stock:      Normal=1, Firm=10
997.2 Turbo Stock:      Normal=2.5, Firm=7
997.1 Turbo Bilstein:   Normal=4, Firm=8

In other words, Porsche engineers mentioned in Panorama Magazine  only a reduction of rebound dampening, but I believe it is more than this. The range of operation is also narrowed and PASM Gen. 2 no longer tries to do "too much." By narrowing the range, IMO there is now better matching of damper to springs in BOTH settings. The idea is in fact exactly the same as what we've found with Bilstein Damptronic: a dual advantage of making car stiffer and solving the flaw of first gen. PASM.

Having experienced the remarkable acceleration of the PDK Turbo, I now also know why the engineeers stiffen the car and why they address specifically the rear springs: They don't have a choice! The car would squat way too much from the front to back weight transfer without rear spring stiffening.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

fritz:

DuckieRS:

 Shifting down 2 gears means that the asked gear isn't engaged already, hence more time is needed.

(clutch "1": R, 1, 3, 5, 7 / clutch "2": 2, 4, 6)

 True, but this applies to upshifts as well as downshifts. 

Correct fritz, but in normal driving, you would be more likely to shift down two gears while braking hard than to shift up two gears on acceleration hence the more noticeable delay on downshift.

Just to add a few words to Duckie's post:

From my understanding and NOT from experience, with PDK, when you are driving in a certain gear, the next ANTICIPATED gear (up or down) is pre-selected on the idling (or unpowered) shaft and ready to go. The power is simply not going through that shaft since its clutch (one of two) is not engaged. When you, or the "brain of the system" asks for a shift, all that happens is that the power is moved from one shaft to the other (where the gear was already previously selected). This happens as one clutch is released and the other is engaged and explains why the shifts are lightning quick... For the actual shift, there is NO gear movement, just clutch action.

Since there is no magic, and the gears must still physically be moved to different positions within the tranny, when you ask for two gear shifts in rapid succession (i.e. 5 to 3), it takes a bit of time to move to the second position - the second shift had not been pre-selected.

Hope this makes sense.

Slow In, Fast Out

FFaust:

fritz:

DuckieRS:

 Shifting down 2 gears means that the asked gear isn't engaged already, hence more time is needed.

(clutch "1": R, 1, 3, 5, 7 / clutch "2": 2, 4, 6)

 True, but this applies to upshifts as well as downshifts. 

Correct fritz, but in normal driving, you would be more likely to shift down two gears while braking hard than to shift up two gears on acceleration hence the more noticeable delay on downshift. 

Also true.   Anyone shifting up two gears at once is not going to be really moving anyway, so he shouldn't complain about a delayed gear engagement.   

As consolation for those comparing PDK or other DSG transmissions with automated manual transmissions like Ferrari's F1: Automated manuals cannot pre-select gears, so are also subject to a delay before the synchronizer rings can engage the gear called for.

fritz

Gnil:

I have been living now for 17 month with my PDK ( Carrera S ) and I must say that at the moment I am sooooo bored driving it, as I only use it as a commute to work.

PDK is fun when you can drive fast, and go to the limits , or when you want to make a very quick lap on a track...

Gnil, your ownership experience mirrors my suspicion about PDK, that it is only fun at 10/10 driving; anything less, I believe PDK is still outstanding, but in general it will be the manual box that takes the prize. Maybe we could be co-authors of the first internet theory  that defines why, and when, PDK has "driver involvement" issue.

When I am trying to drive as fast as possible, the manual box is a hindrance in the sense that I have to "worry" about being in the right gear, the right rpm, and doing the correct shift quickly. PDK eliminates all of these concerns.

Conversely, at other times, I relish the feel of shifting, rev matching, clutch engagement, & a perfect heel toe maneuver. (Why hobbyist assemble model airplanes I presume.) The amazing  PDK robot unfortunately eliminates all of these fantastic interactions.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

I drove one last week, totally unimpressed with the PDK. Felt like I was driving my wife's cayenne, sorry.

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Chris '07 997 TT Midnight on Sea

Farnbacher-Loles prepped!

Exactly  Irrespective of the acceleration advantages of PDK, driving a PDK car just isn't as satisfying for me as driving a manual transmission.

I don't do timed runs where every tenth of a second counts. I want a car to enjoy on my drives in daily life i.e. where I can interact with it, feel fully involved and feel satisfied by the driving experience.

I seek driving pleasure not tenths of a second - I leave that to others who don't mind having a push-button experience

 
RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

 Have you guys tried F1 style boxes?

SciFrog:

 Have you guys tried F1 style boxes?

Yes, F430 and Lambo Gallardo. IMHO, those who don't like PDK won't like them either. Very fast shifting? Yes. More fun? Not necessarily.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

Gnil:

I have been living now for 17 month with my PDK ( Carrera S ) and I must say that at the moment I am sooooo bored driving it, as I only use it as a commute to work....When I am trying to drive as fast as possible, the manual box is a hindrance in the sense that I have to "worry" about being in the right gear, the right rpm, and doing the correct shift quickly. PDK eliminates all of these concerns.

Conversely, at other times, I relish the feel of shifting, rev matching, clutch engagement, & a perfect heel toe maneuver....

Are you forgetting the glories of the poppy-filled countryside as you slide through those curves and top the hills at 120? Are you ignoring the spectacular complexities of Mozart, Bach and Beethoven wafting through your marginally adequate Bose system (to the degree, of course, that your raucous exhaust system lets through any intelligible sound), all just because your manual shifting requires attention perhaps better directed to the good things in life? Anything that allows all the pleasure to come through is to be applauded. In this case, you need PDK + a sound deadening job, and an upgrade to your chariot's sound system.

Just a thought.

 

^^^ Ahh yes Ode to Joy at high speed -- who cares what gear box! (Not sure about Bach though.) And on that note, I will officially end the PDK bashing.

Indeed, PDK is a remarkable technical achievement, and for those in pursuit of high speed at the track, and those who like automatic, I would even say it is a revolutionary step in automotive engineering. Overall, outside of the controversy surrounding Mezger versus new engine, 997.1 dry sump versus 997.2 wet sump, I do think that 997.2 is an improvement over 997.1 in nearly every aspect. Among the exceptions:

Exhaust Tip: One of the components most often swapped out on the 997.1 Turbo, for aesthetic reason, is the ugly amorphous exhaust tip. In a move that could only be described as "in your face," and to make the impossible possible, impossible, the designer has managed to design an uglier tip! 997.2's exhaust tip is un-proportionally huge, and as a result shows an unfortunate and very large black flaring with a tiny hole in the middle.
I do not know why but every time I see it, I think of a colonoscopy. Really an unfortunate decision by the design team. Guys, exhaust tip is meant to be ***ROUND***!

Wheels: After the initial excitement, I will have to say that both Turbo wheel options leave me stone cold, and the new GT3 wheel is currently Porsche's most beautiful.
The stock Turbo wheel is very sharp and angular, and doesn't fit the round soft classic 911 form at all. I don't like that shiny finish either.
The RS Spyder wheel, a 7 fork mesh design, is flat and linear. It's not easy but they actually manage to make a mesh design look boring. Porsche Turbo wheels remain far inferior to competitors' offerings. BTW, having seen the 7 feet long crow bar used to undo the center lock , I would advise you to think twice before getting this wheel.

All of my complaints are of course matter of taste and personal preference, so there is no right or wrong, but I really don't know why the Turbo is always saddled with the most cheesy design elements of the 911 line up. Amorphous exhaust tip, chrome turbo badge, funny wheels, extra round fog lights. Come on, Porsche, enough with the cheesy design gimmicks for my beloved Turbo.
 

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Like your post, Cannga!

Wonderbar:

Like your post, Cannga!

+1 

987 Boxster S, Arctic Silver with 'Martini Racing' Livery, H&R Monotube Coil-Overs, H&R Anti Roll Bars, Strut Brace, FVD ECU, BMC Air Filter, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, Recaro Racing Shells, PSE.

997 Carrera 4S, Guards Red, Bilstein PSS10 Damptronic, H&R Anti Roll Bars, IPD Plenum, Dension Gateway 500, PSE.

Thanks guys. The combination of PDK, 4WD traction, and forced induction have made the 997.2 Turbo a shockingly and unbelievably fast car. I mean, the 3 sec or so 0-60 time is a startling development in automotive engineering (look it up and see what other car does this, I double dare you ) for what is essentially a mass production car. Recently some have lamented that there is no longer a gap between the Turbo and its competitors, as was what happened when the wild original Turbo appeared many years ago. Well... I think that complaint should be re-considered, as at least when it comes to straight-line speed and acceleration, the new Turbo wipes out the competition the same way that the original Turbo did. Porsche and its engineers should be congratulated for this.

Having said that, the car is not perfect. IMHO, those who understand cars will realize that PTM revision, PTV, DEM, etc., do not make a "sports" car, if the engineers’ intention is still to create a grand touring car (I don't blame PAG for this; it's the corporate strategy.). To me, the much awaited PTM revision has done nothing to change the basic character of the grand touring Turbo. With respect to handling, I believe that the 997.2 PDK Turbo is not sporty enough for the more hard-core drivers.

So enough of beating around the bush, 997.2 Turbo will no doubt be perfect as is for many owners, but... what would I do were I to own a PDK Turbo, and somehow feel the car is too "insulated" and "too soft"?
1.   Suspension: a. stiffer springs, a la Bilstein, b. more front negative camber, and c. lower ride height. Car rides too high, leans too much in corners, and understeers quite a bit.
2.   Exhaust: 997.2 has warmer sound and no longer whines irritatingly like 997.1, but its exhaust sound is still way too quiet and not aggressive enough. A system like Cargraphic Loud would do some good for this car (from my recent drive of a GT3 at very *decent* speed, Turbo Cargraphic Loud exhaust yields very little to stock GT3, at least the in-cabin sound).

With slight suspension and alignment change, and louder exhaust, this monster of a car would have more reasonable handling and sound to match its extremely fun and remarkable acceleration (among the high points of my driving career LOL), and IMHO will become an unmatchable dual purpose sports car.

Happy New Year (of the Tiger) and safe driving & good health to all rennteamers, btw.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

Having said that, the car is not perfect. IMHO, those who understand cars will realize that PTM revision, PTV, DEM, etc., do not make a "sports" car, if the engineers’ intention is still to create a grand touring car (I don't blame PAG for this; it's the corporate strategy.). To me, the much awaited PTM revision has done nothing to change the basic character of the grand touring Turbo. With respect to handling, I believe that the 997.2 PDK Turbo is not sporty enough for the more hard-core drivers.

So enough of beating around the bush, 997.2 Turbo will no doubt be perfect as is for many owners, but... what would I do were I to own a PDK Turbo, and somehow feel the car is too "insulated" and "too soft"?
1.   Suspension: a. stiffer springs, a la Bilstein, b. more front negative camber, and c. lower ride height. Car rides too high, leans too much in corners, and understeers quite a bit.
2.   Exhaust: 997.2 has warmer sound and no longer whines irritatingly like 997.1, but its exhaust sound is still way too quiet and not aggressive enough. A system like Cargraphic Loud would do some good for this car (from my recent drive of a GT3 at very *decent* speed, Turbo Cargraphic Loud exhaust yields very little to stock GT3, at least the in-cabin sound).

With slight suspension and alignment change, and louder exhaust, this monster of a car would have more reasonable handling and sound to match its extremely fun and remarkable acceleration (among the high points of my driving career LOL), and IMHO will become an unmatchable dual purpose sports car.

Happy New Year (of the Tiger) and safe driving & good health to all rennteamers, btw.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

I do agree with you. I was very impressed by the car's acceleration, but the Turbo does not feel sporty enough . It feels too comfortable.

The changes you mention would make it perfect !

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

BTW, my opinion is that the release of 997.2 PDK Turbo means one thing for 997.1 Turbo: You now ***MUST*** consider an ECU tune. This is IMHO the only way the old manual car could match the frenetic pace, excitement, and near lag free feel of the new PDK car.

Without an ECU tune, the old Turbo feels, well, old and obsolete. It has quite a bit lag and is ponderous in comparison. An ECU tune, even a humble stage 2 tune like my GIAC car, eliminates nearly all lag and brings the 2 cars, one manual and one PDK, much closer together in feel. That feel of relentless forward thrust, that makes passenger want to jump out of your car  and blood rushing backward/dizziness in your head, in all-out acceleration.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

Without an ECU tune, the old Turbo feels, well, old and obsolete... quite a bit of lag and is ponderous .... An ECU tune... eliminates nearly all lag ... That feel of relentless forward thrust that makes passengers want to jump out of your car  and blood rushing backward/dizziness in your head....

Are you referencing car driving and not some Amsterdam imagery? 

Sounds like your health has returned, but not your focus. I think you need a sedate, slightly acoustically-impaired passenger to ground your deviancies and redirect your energies. Perhaps some Classe/Krell shopping would help.

cannga

BTW, I was going to write a review on the Panamera's Burmester system but held back because I found out there might be some tone control function gimmick  that I missed during the audition. Maybe that is why it sounds so painfully bright ... so bright my ears were bleeding.)

I had some spare time today, so I visited a local Porsche showroom and scored one of their fairly new Burmester brochures. As detailed therein, the unit has a "high-range and bass adjustment." The brochure just does not specify how it's done or exactly what "high-range" means; need the manual for that.

Perhaps the one you auditioned was incorrectly set up, or configured by some Porschephile who drives a deafeningly customized shotgun and who therefore may not be able to hear critically a significant period of time after his engine quits.

Whichever the cause, I think a new, somewhat extended audition is warranted, with Burmester manual in hand! What think you?

Unfortunately, all five of the Panameras this dealer had on the floor were Burmesterless.

aGrant:

Are you referencing car driving and not some Amsterdam imagery? 

 

Amsterdam imagery? Don't know what you're talking about. The only Amsterdam imagery I remember is of bicycles.

You're right about the Burmester. We need a re-audition; I just couldn't believe such a high end system would sound so intolerably bright with so little bass. Of course it doesn't help that I am a tube guy either; I don't tolerate bright sound well.

es

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Think you make some good points on the driver involvement aspects of a stick. 

I am currently in a 997.1 C4S and seriously thinking about a 997.2 Turbo with PDK.  I have loved sticks since I first became a driver 24 years ago and find it impossible to remain un-frustrated driving a slush box, whether its a sedan or a sports car or a SUV - they just never react right.  But I just don't see how one can handle this kind of power with a manual and get all there is out of it.  Although I am pretty skeptical of Porsche's commercial intentions, and how much various options cost, the push on PDK seems akin to the push on DFI - the gains are just very substantial.  Has anyone out there driven a 997.2 turbo PDK versus a manual? I would be curious if the latter can really access the potential, or is it on its way to being a more like something that older drivers feel nostalgic about.

bigonion:

Think you make some good points on the driver involvement aspects of a stick. 

I am currently in a 997.1 C4S and seriously thinking about a 997.2 Turbo with PDK.  I have loved sticks since I first became a driver 24 years ago and find it impossible to remain un-frustrated driving a slush box, whether its a sedan or a sports car or a SUV - they just never react right.  But I just don't see how one can handle this kind of power with a manual and get all there is out of it.  Although I am pretty skeptical of Porsche's commercial intentions, and how much various options cost, the push on PDK seems akin to the push on DFI - the gains are just very substantial.  Has anyone out there driven a 997.2 turbo PDK versus a manual? I would be curious if the latter can really access the potential, or is it on its way to being a more like something that older drivers feel nostalgic about.

Thanks. That's just the problem there: Not many people have driven the manual 997.2 Turbo. Some US tuners are dynoing the 997.2 Turbo to be more powerful than spec, I think (anyone corrects me as needed), so I believe the Manual will be a very fast and exciting car too.

Do what's best for you, obviously, but be VERY careful about picking PDK over Manual. Even now, after all the accolades the PDK car is getting, and the acceleration records for production car it has broken, I still think it's an extremely difficult decision. I am still of the opinion that if you are a Manual die-hard and don't primarily race the car, Manual is the way to go. Really, most of our driving is not all-out racing and here there is no question the Manual car is more fun.
Too bad that, short of owning 2 cars, we can't have everything.

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

 A couple of days ago I  tested the new Turbo PDK for a whole day. Concerning acceleration, believe me that there is invredible. Back in 2005 when I was racing I had the oportunity to try  a 996 RSR with sequential gearbox for about 20 laps at Jarama circuit in Madrid. Of course I am not comparing both things because they are very diferent, BUT the feeling, the sensation that the new turbo gives you impressed me much more than the linear RSR.

antonio_spain:

 A couple of days ago I  tested the new Turbo PDK for a whole day. Concerning acceleration, believe me that there is invredible. Back in 2005 when I was racing I had the oportunity to try  a 996 RSR with sequential gearbox for about 20 laps at Jarama circuit in Madrid. Of course I am not comparing both things because they are very diferent, BUT the feeling, the sensation that the new turbo gives you impressed me much more than the linear RSR.

 

Strong words indeed!   Although... I am not surprised; the PDK Turbo is sort of a "perfect storm" :-): Porsche engineering + PDK + Turbo + 4WD traction = My Sweet Lord!

It's too bad the corporate philosophy is to make the Turbo's suspension as soft as noodle. 

Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

Thanks for the suggestions. Given my proclivities perhaps a stick remains the way to go.  Since I am not doing a lot of drag racing around town the extra 0.2 seconds on the 0-60 time via launch control are probably not going to be missed.  Still very tempting to try the PDK though.

Holy PDK acceleration is quite correct.

The current Car and Driver had a PDK Turbo doing 2.9 0-60. 6.8 0-100mph. Even with a rolling start 5-60mph is just 3.4

bigonion:

Thanks for the suggestions. Given my proclivities perhaps a stick remains the way to go.  Since I am not doing a lot of drag racing around town the extra 0.2 seconds on the 0-60 time via launch control are probably not going to be missed.  Still very tempting to try the PDK though.

I would not have called it a huge dilemma had I thought the decision were easy ;-). Look at it on the bad side, either box you pick, manual or PDK, you'll lose as you might miss the other one; look at it on the good side, either box you pick, you'll win as the car is mind bogglingly powerful both ways. I honestly believe the ONLY way "out" for motorsport fan is to own one car of each. LOL

If the PDK is just fast, the decision would have been easy. The problem is, it's fast and it FEELS amazingly good, even though it has some characteristics of an out-of-body experience . Sub 3 0-60 is a landmark achievement in automotive engineering; if at all possible, I would encourage you to take a test drive of the PDK car even if you've decided on manual. It's another one of those dreadful must-try-once-in-a-lifetime things.

To put things in perspective, I've driven a (small) number of exotic cars to compare to my manual Turbo, and of all of those, the only thing (besides GT2 of course) that ever came close to making me equally happy with respect to power, is the V10 powered Lambo Gallardo. This should tell you how fast even 997.1 manual Turbo is.
So... with that in mind, how do you explain this thing that is a full 0.6 second FASTER 0-60? Well, you DON'T! :-) BTW, I wish I could congratulate the Porsche engineers in Stuttgart, I believe even the jaded (American) professional tester was in awe.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

cannga:

So... with that in mind, how do you explain this thing that is a full 0.6 second FASTER 0-60? Well, you DON'T! :-) BTW, I wish I could congratulate the Porsche engineers in Stuttgart, I believe even the jaded (American) professional tester was in awe.

As if on cue, latest issue of Christophorus notes *whom* I should be addressing: one Heinz-Jacko Neusser, Ph. D., head of Porsche Drivetrain Development.

Felicitation!

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )