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Re: Future of Porsche - PDMS - (In my opinion)
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Its cool that Porsche has developed the 997TT tiptronic to eliminate throttle/turbo lag for takeoff and optimized its shifting by networking with AWD and PASM. It is a huge step beyond a standard 997's Tiptronic! Quicker, faster. More dynamic!
But! I am waiting for Porsches news about their next big advance- networking the 997TT's Tiptronics system directly with the drivers brain! PDMS - Porsche Driver Management System. A simple RFID implant chip like used on pets(!)would provide a data link between car systems and drivers neurological systems!
No only could a Porsche then sense your identity, unlock the doors and start automatically, but once behind the wheel and going down the road, PDMS could also prompt the driver with mild electrical shocks to speed up, slow down, turn here or brake there!
Information about future models could also be downloaded directly to the owners brain!
Bring it on!
It would sell like hotcakes..
Mar 4, 2006 8:38:18 PM
- ADias
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- Reply to: Rafael from Spain
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
Why do people think if you change fast you trash the clutch.
How many miles do you get on a clutch? To wit... my average is in excess of 70,000 miles (miles NOT km).
I challenge you to do power shifts routinely and achieve long clutch life. I have no fun in trashing my cars.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
Why do people think if you change fast you trash the clutch.
How many miles do you get on a clutch? To wit... my average is in excess of 70,000 miles (miles NOT km).
I challenge you to do power shifts routinely and achieve long clutch life. I have no fun in trashing my cars.
That's nonsense. You don't need to powershift to change gears fast.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Crash said:No. Heel-toe is only used for downshifting and you actually reduce the strain on the transmission, by matching the revs.
We do know that! The thing is, it works when the shift is perfect, but reality being what it is, in the heat of super fast gear changes, synchros do suffer, gears may grind, clutches do slip. Do not even think that, let's call it "high-performance," gear shifting does not increase wear and tear. Of course it does.
The bottom line is... a manually operated clutch (foot, or hand, in very early motor cars) has been part of ICE engine's transmissions since their start, because there was nothing better. It is indeed a pretty crude mechanism. Dual-clutch transmissions work well because a computer can rev matching perfectly, something you or I will never do every single time, no matter how skilled we are. You may think differently, of course, and that is OK.
This is an emotional issue for many, or even an ego-macho-driven thing, but not for me. I actually drive a manual, but I am unemotional regarding it.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
Crash said:No. Heel-toe is only used for downshifting and you actually reduce the strain on the transmission, by matching the revs.
We do know that! The thing is, it works when the shift is perfect, but reality being what it is, in the heat of super fast gear changes, synchros do suffer, gears may grind, clutches do slip. Do not even think that, let's call it "high-performance," gear shifting does not increase wear and tear. Of course it does.
The bottom line is... a manually operated clutch (foot, or hand, in very early motor cars) has been part of ICE engine's transmissions since their start, because there was nothing better. It is indeed a pretty crude mechanism. Dual-clutch transmissions work well because a computer can rev matching perfectly, something you or I will never do every single time, no matter how skilled we are. You may think differently, of course, and that is OK.
This is an emotional issue for many, or even an ego-macho-driven thing, but not for me. I actually drive a manual, but I am unemotional regarding it.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, it is simple. Unless you're disabled in some way, as a true sports car enthusiast you should drive a stick. Of course an automatic can shift more fluidly, with less stress, but then again, these are SPORTS cars.
Nobody expects the clutch to last 70.000 miles (although it gets close) or a butter-smooth ride.
These cars a re a challenge. A challenge for your steering, throttle management and braking abilities. I'd say that the clutch should be included with the rest.
If it were all about perfection, we'd let computers control the steering, brakes and throotle. We're the weak link here, if you look at it from this perspective.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
ADias said:
We do know that! The thing is, it works when the shift is perfect, but reality being what it is, in the heat of super fast gear changes, synchros do suffer, gears may grind, clutches do slip. Do not even think that, let's call it "high-performance," gear shifting does not increase wear and tear. Of course it does.
Ok, that's true, but an automatic gearbox will also suffer and heat up a lot in the sportiest mode or during track use.
I think i remember that Porsche said in a press release that track day fans would surely prefer the manual.I think the manual gearbox will suit better very hard driving styles
Mar 5, 2006 10:13:31 AM
- Rafael from Spain
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Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
You can heel-toe during downchanges and not only will transmission not suffer but you would increase clutch life, because if you do it right there is absolutely no slip during downchanges, if you do it not so good there will be less slip compering with a "normal" downchange. You are helping with the gas pedal to make the rev jump less pronounce when dropping the clutch.
For upchanges you can be very quick without powershifting, specially over 3rd gear. The big advantange of sequentials comes in the 1st-2nd gear change where there is a lot of stress. But judging from my past SMG E46 M3, I would say that the clutch and transmision, was not going to last more than my manual cars because it did stress and force a lot the diff, clutch and gearbox. I would help SMG downchanges with heel toe and produced smother downchanges in the same time.
So after owning one of the best sequentials I recommend anybody that ENJOYS driving to buy manual.
For upchanges you can be very quick without powershifting, specially over 3rd gear. The big advantange of sequentials comes in the 1st-2nd gear change where there is a lot of stress. But judging from my past SMG E46 M3, I would say that the clutch and transmision, was not going to last more than my manual cars because it did stress and force a lot the diff, clutch and gearbox. I would help SMG downchanges with heel toe and produced smother downchanges in the same time.
So after owning one of the best sequentials I recommend anybody that ENJOYS driving to buy manual.
Mar 5, 2006 10:46:53 AM
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Nick_Athens
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Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Crash said:
Unless you're disabled in some way, as a true sports car enthusiast you should drive a stick. Of course an automatic can shift more fluidly, with less stress, but then again, these are SPORTS cars.
I'm on your team Crash. No matter how good the Tip is, PDK that is coming in 18mos (per RC) will be better . And it still won't be as involving, fun, or rewarding as a manual.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
I believe that as much as I love the idea of computer enhanced shifting, there will always be a place for a manual. I do not believe as other(s) have posted that the sky is falling in regards to greater depreciation of a manually equipped tt when PDK becomes available. Thus I would think that a six speed/ or possibly a seven speed manual will always be available; and in large quantites.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
devo said:... I would think that a six speed/ or possibly a seven speed manual will always be available; and in large quantites.
Seven-speed manual? How often, in spirited driving, do you use the 6th gear or even 5th? And I thought we were discussing sports driving...
Seasoned 911 aficionados do know that the appearance of 6 gears on the 911 was driven by marketing reasons, not performance...
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
devo said:... I would think that a six speed/ or possibly a seven speed manual will always be available; and in large quantites.
Seven-speed manual? How often, in spirited driving, do you use the 6th gear or even 5th? And I thought we were discussing sports driving...
Seasoned 911 aficionados do know that the appearance of 6 gears on the 911 was driven by marketing reasons, not performance...
Really? Then how do you explain the Tiptronic being slower than the manual above 200 km/h? One less gear.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Branimir said:
YES! I did! Now, did you drive SL55AMG? Well, I did and despite awsome power and torque I was not impressed with autobox... And this AMG autobox is way better then TIP in 997, IMO.
A. Porsche never said that Tiptronic is the future of sportscars or Porsche cars. Neither did I, I just claimed that ONLY in the 997 Turbo, it makes sense.
B. the 997 Tiptronic is shifting faster and better than the AMG Speedshift in the SL55 AMG. Of course I'm alway referring to the Tiptronic with Sport Chrono activated.
C. it is one thing to drive a car for a few minutes, it is another to be able to drive certain cars for weeks, months or even owning them
D. I don't trust Porsche too much, I trust the people who support this forum a lot. And til now, their infos were pretty accurate.
Some people still seem to miss some logic in their thinking but I think it isn't my duty to change this.
I know it is hard to believe that the 997 Turbo Tiptronic is THAT good but like I said before, it is not only the improved Tiptronic but the whole package. And I'm ONLY talking about the 997 Turbo, so cut it out with stuff like "why no GT3 with Tiptronic", etc.
Of course everybody can believe what he wants but in the end, I hope that some people remember that one of the major reasons for our success here at Rennteam.com is trust.
I just wish people wouldn't forget it.
And a final word: if somebody wants to go for manual, no problem. Go for manual and enjoy one of the finest sportscars on this planet, you won't regret it. But don't try to dillusion yourself that manual is faster or sportier than the Tiptronic on the new 997 Turbo. In combination with the Sports Chrono Package, it definetely isn't.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
devo said:... I would think that a six speed/ or possibly a seven speed manual will always be available; and in large quantites.
Seven-speed manual? How often, in spirited driving, do you use the 6th gear or even 5th? And I thought we were discussing sports driving...
Seasoned 911 aficionados do know that the appearance of 6 gears on the 911 was driven by marketing reasons, not performance...
Seven Speed Manual is conventionally impossible...
I mean I guess you could do it but the gear shifts would be so awkwardly placed (look around 3rd to get to 2nd, swirl around to 4th etc etc) that any manual driver used to a conventional H pattern will be at a loss...
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Hurst said:
Seven Speed Manual is conventionally impossible...
I mean I guess you could do it but the gear shifts would be so awkwardly placed (look around 3rd to get to 2nd, swirl around to 4th etc etc) that any manual driver used to a conventional H pattern will be at a loss...
Thank you! I know people long-involved with everything Porsche, who understand these cars inside-out and especially engines and transmissions, whose clear opinion is that the move from 5 to 6 speeds was pure marketing.
Some contributors to this board affirm truths without a sense of reality. Decisions are driven by big egos and macho attitudes. Their overly aggressive reaction to any comment describing why Tip-S, or a future DSK, makes sense, is a symptom of a basic psychological problem, but that is an all other story. For what I care, anyone may continue to drive stick. I still do, but not for much longer.
Mar 6, 2006 10:06:29 AM
- Rafael from Spain
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Reply to:
RC
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
RC, I understand very well all your comments, but I think we have a misunderstanding of what "sportier" is.
You see, for me sportier is not how fast you can accelerate, or what time you do at the track and how many miliseconds takes the gearchange, for "sportier" I understand how much you have to work with the car and how much it rewards you when you do it right. Sitting back and pushing a switch to get the perfect shift all the time is not sport, pressing a clutch, and heel-toe to make the fastest and smoothest possible downchange is "sport" and it rewards you when you do it perfect.
If you only care about numbers then TIP could be your way, if you care about involment and reward then manual is the way.
Any choice is respectable, but I don't think calling TIP "sportier" than manual is the right thing.
You see, for me sportier is not how fast you can accelerate, or what time you do at the track and how many miliseconds takes the gearchange, for "sportier" I understand how much you have to work with the car and how much it rewards you when you do it right. Sitting back and pushing a switch to get the perfect shift all the time is not sport, pressing a clutch, and heel-toe to make the fastest and smoothest possible downchange is "sport" and it rewards you when you do it perfect.
If you only care about numbers then TIP could be your way, if you care about involment and reward then manual is the way.
Any choice is respectable, but I don't think calling TIP "sportier" than manual is the right thing.
Mar 6, 2006 11:36:53 AM
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RC
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Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
You see, for me sportier is not how fast you can accelerate, or what time you do at the track and how many miliseconds takes the gearchange, for "sportier" I understand how much you have to work with the car and how much it rewards you when you do it right
If Michael Schumacher would think this way, he probably would have ended up as a rim polisher and not a race driver.
But seriously: "my" fun is to be as fast as possible without getting a heart attack immediately.I understand you very well, I've been the same when I did professional rallye racing two decades ago. But after one rollover and two minor crashes (during racing of course), the "more involving" driving experience has actually become annoying. I'm using whatever means possible to achieve the fastest rounds with the least driver involvement. Just do
the math: "forgiving" car + good driver = ?
I'm 41 now, I had my share of excitement in my life. The old saying "no risk, no fun" isn't really valid for me anymore. I learned from mistakes and I started to set priorities. And what I want is actually to be extremeley fast at the lowest possible risk. Some people want something else of course and it is understandable.
And here's my last word, a huge BUT: why would somebody, who wants to experience a full scale involvement, get a 997 Turbo in the first place? AWD, PSM, PTM...not really a car which "demands" the driver.
And here's the catch: while a GT3 is like it is, a 997 Turbo with PSM off and Sport Chrono activated becomes a completely different beast at a completely different speed level. And here is where the "challenge" is: being able to control this beast at the limit. Trust me...if this isn't "involvement", I don't know what is.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
RC said:
I'm 41 now, I had my share of excitement in my life. The old saying "no risk, no fun" isn't really valid for me anymore. I learned from mistakes and I started to set priorities. And what I want is actually to be extremely fast at the lowest possible risk. Some people want something else of course and it is understandable.
Maybe we should have two classifications of posters to make it easier to understand points of view:
A) Hormones in control of brain
B) Brain in control of hormones
I started off firmly in group "A". I have, in my old age (56), tried move to group "B". I dare not call it wisdom, more like learning from experience.
I find myself agreeing with your description of driving aims and goals. I have driven thousands of laps at various race tracks and cherish the experience. I no longer feel compelled to explore the uncharted reaches of risk/reward in order to have fun going really fast.
Make no mistake; I like going really fast. It's great fun for which I have a lot of enthusiasm. But, I have learned to appreciate the difference between aggressive slip angles with lots of tire smoke and getting to point "B" before the other guy.
I like getting there first much more than being able to tell hair-raising stories about getting there second.
Mar 6, 2006 3:38:40 PM
- Rafael from Spain
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Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
RC, Well I am younger than you and still like the feeling of controling a beast. You are right, the 997TT is not the best car to be talking these things. I have done very few races in my life, and I agree with you, the faster, the easier the better, but on the road (empty twisty road a sunday morning) I am not looking at the speedo, I just want to enjoy myself, and having a stick gives that extra involment I want.
Just one question for you. To understand a little bit more your perspective.
If the 997GT3 (take into account what is a GT3!!) had a TIP option that provided the exact same performance times than a manual, what would be your choice?
Just one question for you. To understand a little bit more your perspective.
If the 997GT3 (take into account what is a GT3!!) had a TIP option that provided the exact same performance times than a manual, what would be your choice?
Mar 6, 2006 3:54:24 PM
- ray911
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Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
RC, Well I am younger than you and still like the feeling of controling a beast. You are right, the 997TT is not the best car to be talking these things. I have done very few races in my life, and I agree with you, the faster, the easier the better, but on the road (empty twisty road a sunday morning) I am not looking at the speedo, I just want to enjoy myself, and having a stick gives that extra involment I want.
Just one question for you. To understand a little bit more your perspective.
If the 997GT3 (take into account what is a GT3!!) had a TIP option that provided the exact same performance times than a manual, what would be your choice?
I am not going to answer for RC, but just my 2ct:
I assume that the reason for not going for a GT3 is never the lack of a Tip. At least on Rennteam everyone seems to be capable of operating a manual. The main reason for not getting a GT3 is probably the lack of a PSM.
I am also undecided what to do, GT3 or TT. But I will be out for a new car end of next year. So I do not worry now. My reason for not getting the GT3 would be the less practicability for those days on which you are not so much interested in the viscal excitement of driving. Say rainy, snowy, bad roads, other things in your heads....
One of the many days in which you just want to get from A to B without excitement... In Germany you have many days in which conditions are not perfect. The GT3 can be handful in a blink of an eye, and I have to admit that I am not so (over-)self-confident to say that I am able to handle that in every second of my life.
Of course, you could argue that you can take your first or second or whatever other car for normal drives. But I got used to taking the Porsche as a daily driver and really enjoy that this is possible. I would feel bad to have the car just for the garage and take it out on these rare perfect days (at least in Germany). That is the great advantage of Porsche cars, they are built to be driven. Therefore it is nice to have a balance between being able to race it, push it, enjoy it, but also being somewhat safe in everyday life.
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Yah: that's why I am leaning towards the Tip 997TT. I never thought I would want a Porsche that is not 6speed, but Porsche has made the decision very difficult with this Tips performance. I am also going to use it as a daily driver, therefore I chose the TT with 4 wheel drive as apposed to a rear wheel drive 997S or GT3. I also think it will be more versatile since I can use the phone or be in traffic without having to worry about gear shifts. Over here in Miami it rains allot so having the safety of PSM and TC coupled with 4 wheel drive makes it a very sensible choice.
Mar 6, 2006 4:58:03 PM
- Avantgarde
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Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
W8MM said:
I like getting there first much more than being able to tell hair-raising stories about getting there second.
I would like to relate the story that I effortlessly lap the genuine enthusiast driving the 'guts' out of a manual car in my Tip car
...hehe 
Mar 6, 2006 5:17:44 PM
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RC
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- Reply to: Rafael from Spain
Re: Future of Porsche (In my opinion)
Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
If the 997GT3 (take into account what is a GT3!!) had a TIP option that provided the exact same performance times than a manual, what would be your choice?
The 997 Turbo involves a new technology, the VTG chargers. This is where the whole improvement as a WHOLE PACKAGE starts. Try to view the VTG technology, the AWD, the PTM/PSM and the Tiptronic of the 997 Turbo as ONE SINGLE unit. Maybe you start to understand what I mean.
With the 997 GT3, things are different. There is the engine and there is the clutch and the manual gearbox. I don't see any advantage, only disadvantages from a Tiptronic gearbox since there is no electronicaly controlled torque output involved, there is no AWD and PTM/PSM involved.
I know it is difficult to understand because the new VTG technology is unique on a gasoline operated car. Porsche could have stated that manual and Tiptronic have the same performance and they would have saved themselves from a lot of rumors, conspiracy theories and criticism. But they didn't, they published the better Tiptronic times by purpose. And this is actually to show what the new technology and the networked "design" is capable of.
The GT3 is a different type of car, I don't think you can compare it to the 997 Turbo.
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