Crown

RC:

VW apparently already started to listen. Goal number one for Porsche apparently right now: reducing cost. 

.....and increasing sales price ?

reginos:

racerx:

If Porsche had beautiful designs people would still buy them. The panamera is an ugly duckling as is the Cayenne. We have all said it from the 1st photo's!!!!!!!

As far as I've seen so far, Porsche have sold many thousands of Cayenne around the world, which proves that everybody's aesthetics are different.

 

If the panamera had the same visual appeal as the DBS in the O/T thread or the Cayenne had a better look, you can be sure there would be more loyalty.

 The luxury segment isn't exactly flooded with DBS's or other Aston Martin models. Mind you, in many parts of the world there is strong prejudice against british car brands because of the rubbish they produced for many years. This also brings down some of their better efforts.

 

 

 

Your first part just proves that people love badges and names, the reason people buy so many knock-offs in the fashion world. Proven by the FACT that most Cayennes are 6 cylinder base models (in usa) without Porsche performance. And lets face it, it is a rebadged toerag.
 

Its not flooded with DBS's for 1 reason, nobody can afford them. If desire alone sold cars, Aston and ferrari would be the Nissan  and Honda.

Whoopsy:

 

Actually 4, I already have my deposit down for a X6M, but I am still deciding on color combo, either Carbon Black/Metallic Black with Red or black interior.

Did you ever considered Carbonblack with cinnamon Leather?
The cinnamon is not that brownish as maybe assumed. It  has an slight orange glow.

You the devil, as if I don't already have enough choices haha.

Last year I bought an X5 4.8 with the saddle brown interior and I loved it. But there lies the problem, I didn't want to have 2 Xs with the same interior color as this cinnamon is just about the same.

My dealer actually have one on the lot right now with Carbon black/black interior, rear entertainment but without the full leather option. If I don't mind the seatback without leather and plastic on the door panels, I could pick it up right now if I decides to go with black.

racerx:

Your first part just proves that people love badges and names, the reason people buy so many knock-offs in the fashion world.

Very true for all products. The power of marketing

Proven by the FACT that most Cayennes are 6 cylinder base models (in usa) without Porsche performance. And lets face it, it is a rebadged toerag.
 

Actually, the Touareg is a re-badged Cayenne because all the development of the cars at the time was done by Porsche on behalf of VW too.

In Germany, the Cayenne S is the most sold Cayenne model as far as I remember. So I assume it is actually a little bit about performance too, not only about the brand and looks. 

Even the Diesel sells pretty bad over here, I bet Porsche was hoping for better Diesel sales figures. I actually predicted this because this is not the Diesel Porschephiles were hoping for, for example the 500 HP monster V12 Diesel from the Audi Q7 or at least a Diesel engine with 350+ HP.

People who buy a Porsche usually expect a performance gain too. In the US, showing off is more important (and much more common) than in Germany for example and this is why maybe the V6 sold most in the States. This is of course just an assumption.

Do Americans de-badge their 7 series or S-class ? In Germany, you rarely see one of these cars with the real or any model designation at all on the rear.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

For comparison over here, almost 99% of the Cayennes are Turbo, Turbo S or GTS! I haven't seen a single Cayenne Diesel and don't want to see...

Most of the 911's are mainly Turbo and S versions. GT3 and even GT3 RS are also very appreciated, nevertheless, that the nearest race track is across the border.

AM's are driven mostly by young stupid soccer wifes and models. For many years in Eastern Europe, AM has the status of a complete rubbish, due to its low British+Ford quality... Most of the customers here, in the recent years appreciate mainly quality and performance in front of posing and badges.

RC:

Even the Diesel sells pretty bad over here, I bet Porsche was hoping for better Diesel sales figures. I actually predicted this because this is not the Diesel Porschephiles were hoping for, for example the 500 HP monster V12 Diesel from the Audi Q7 or at least a Diesel engine with 350+ HP.

This 3.0 lt diesel was developed when PAG was independent mainly as a means of reducing the Porsche range fuel consumption and CO2 in accordance with future regulations.

I'm sure if they were part of VW at the time, their decision would have been different.

I expect a Cayenne.2 with a super-diesel  engine.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

And I'm hoping for Non-diesel Porsche range again, but...

You guys are right, it is no secret, our cultures are very different.

In the US it is all about status and "showing off" for the auto market in general. Badges are BIG. Including the size of the engine if it is a muscle car.

We are the country that created Lifestyles of the rich and famous with Robin Leach. Up until about the year 2000 celebrating success was accepted and a dream for everyone, but that was before all the crooks emerged at Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, and now Wall street. 

As for AM, it's brand has been brought back since the intro of the AM V8 and Bond's recent movies. Before that it was nothing special since the DB5.

How big is the market in Bulgaria, Boyko?

Conny997:

Whoopsy:

 

Actually 4, I already have my deposit down for a X6M, but I am still deciding on color combo, either Carbon Black/Metallic Black with Red or black interior.

Did you ever considered Carbonblack with cinnamon Leather?
The cinnamon is not that brownish as maybe assumed. It  has an slight orange glow.

With little kids, this is a "deadly" combination. Nothing beats black when it comes to moving kids around in your car. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

In Germany, the Cayenne S is the most sold Cayenne model as far as I remember. So I assume it is actually a little bit about performance too, not only about the brand and looks. 

Even the Diesel sells pretty bad over here, I bet Porsche was hoping for better Diesel sales figures. I actually predicted this because this is not the Diesel Porschephiles were hoping for, for example the 500 HP monster V12 Diesel from the Audi Q7 or at least a Diesel engine with 350+ HP.

People who buy a Porsche usually expect a performance gain too. In the US, showing off is more important (and much more common) than in Germany for example and this is why maybe the V6 sold most in the States. This is of course just an assumption.

Do Americans de-badge their 7 series or S-class ? In Germany, you rarely see one of these cars with the real or any model designation at all on the rear.

 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 

I believe the Cayenne is selling at higher numbers in the US because of its lower price point. A Cayenne S with a few options is $20-25 K higher then the Cayenne.  People are trading the performance of  the Cayenne S for more options in a regular Cayenne. For those individuals with larger budgets and looking for higher performance, the Cayenne GTS seems to be the choice over the Cayenne Turbo.

With respect to de-badging a 7 series or S-class, I have rarely seen that occur in the US. 

        RC:

Do Americans de-badge their 7 series or S-class ? In Germany, you rarely see one of these cars with the real or any model designation at all on the rear.

bobr:      

With respect to de-badging a 7 series or S-class, I have rarely seen that     occur  in the US. 

From what I can recall,  the luxury vehicle de-badging started in Germany at the time of the Red Army Faction (early to mid 70s), the extreme left militant group of Baader and Meinhof. Industrialists and rich people were targeted , abducted and some assasinated.

So at the time de-badging a car was thought as a way of hiding the status of its owner. A de-badged 500 S class could be mistaken for a "poor man's" Mercedes 200. That's how the thinking went at that time.

It seems that this started a trend in Germany that continues to the present day

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

I rather think the de-badging started with the "what does the neighbor think" thinking and social unrest in the 80s, when hundreds of thousands were gathering in the streets, shouting "down with Pershings", "down with America" and "down with capitalism". It got more relaxed later on and the de-badging became some sort of a way not to provoke and to keep a peaceful social atmosphere. With rising capital and the media reporting each and every day how the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, things changed again and it was very important to keep a certain "cover" on ones financial well-being.

A very good example is actually a friend of ours, he is a dentist. We met him and his family a couple of times a month for over a year and it was only after that year that we actually found out that he owns...a 911 Cabriolet. Before that, we saw only a Volvo stationwagon and his wife always admired my wife for driving a Cayenne. NOT A SINGLE word about the fact that they were owning a Porsche too.

You can imagine that we're not so good friends anymore, simply because we don't like it when people hide things, for whatever reasons.

Welcome to OUR world. Reality.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

A very good example is actually a friend of ours, he is a dentist. We met him and his family a couple of times a month for over a year and it was only after that year that we actually found out that he owns...a 911 Cabriolet. Before that, we saw only a Volvo stationwagon and his wife always admired my wife for driving a Cayenne. NOT A SINGLE word about the fact that they were owning a Porsche too.

I like this story 

It could form part of the script of a TV sitcom.

I know and I have many of these stories. They actually started to make me sad.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I rather think the de-badging started with the "what does the neighbor think" thinking and social unrest in the 80s, when hundreds of thousands were gathering in the streets, shouting "down with Pershings", "down with America" and "down with capitalism". It got more relaxed later on and the de-badging became some sort of a way not to provoke and to keep a peaceful social atmosphere. With rising capital and the media reporting each and every day how the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, things changed again and it was very important to keep a certain "cover" on ones financial well-being.

A very good example is actually a friend of ours, he is a dentist. We met him and his family a couple of times a month for over a year and it was only after that year that we actually found out that he owns...a 911 Cabriolet. Before that, we saw only a Volvo stationwagon and his wife always admired my wife for driving a Cayenne. NOT A SINGLE word about the fact that they were owning a Porsche too.

You can imagine that we're not so good friends anymore, simply because we don't like it when people hide things, for whatever reasons.

Welcome to OUR world. Reality.  

RC, it's sad that things are as they are where you are situated.

It a little bit like that there here as well. If people see you drive a flashy car, there will always be those  who think you are being shovenistic.

I used to be like that. With our conditions here with the gap between the poor and wealthy one of the largest in the world. It does have a substantial influence.

However, you only live once - so I try my best to not let it mould the way I should live. It's not living when you have to watch or think about everything you do or say strategically, all the time.

You have a family so your views are obviously different and you have more than just yourself to think about. If I treat the general public with respect/courtesty and they can not do the same in return irregardless of one's financial position. I could care less about what they think IMO.

Mike, sorry to hear that it isn't much differen in SA too.

My business started to improve again this year, I fired a very unpopular employee and started to be much more around than before. I see my kids only in the evening, which is kind of sad for me but the business is getting better and this is good news. Unfortunately I have my business in a very "sensitive" neighborhood, my customers are also not very rich or wealthy, most of them are living from social support. If they would have seen a Panamera Turbo in front of my business (no other parking possibility), I would have lost a substantial amount of customers, I'm pretty sure about it. Today I visited my local Porsche dealer and there was a Panamera Turbo inside the showroom and a Panamera S outside the showroom. Oh my god...these cars are HUGE...I mean H.U.G.E.. My dealer has problems to move them, simply because everybody over here says the same I'm saying: We love Porsche, we love the Panamera, it is a great product...but not for Germany, sorry.

Yes, I live only once but I also have two kids and responsibilities. Kids suffer much more from "social mobbing", as I call it, than adults.

I'm still playing the lottery: if I win lets say 10 Mio or so, I move to Florida, send my kids to a private school and enjoy life. Til then, I'm afraid, I need to work hard and take care of my family, even if this means that I can't buy fancy cars anymore. Thats life I guess but I really shouldn't complaint, really not.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

The story is really sad

As far as I see current economic crisis made this situation even more worse?

May be in 3-4 years it will be better once again

Btw: while checking out the technical data of the X5 M, I realized that the X5 M has 15.6 inch (396 mm)  brake discs in front and 15.2 inch (386 mm) discs in the rear. Holy cow.

My pre-facelift Cayenne Turbo S had 380 mm discs in front.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Btw: while checking out the technical data of the X5 M, I realized that the X5 M has 15.6 inch (396 mm)  brake discs in front and 15.2 inch (386 mm) discs in the rear. Holy cow.

My pre-facelift Cayenne Turbo S had 380 mm discs in front.

Most of the time, the brake problems BMWs have are due to fade and stopping power.

The brake discs are Ok in terms of size; they are big, ventilated etc. but 1 piston caliper is inferior to Porsche design so they fade heavily under track usage eventhough they are great for the first couple of hard brakes.

Even M3 CSL has a fade problem. Its stopping power is very good; 35m from 100-0 but during track usage brake upgrade, at least race pads, DOT 5.1 fluid and steel brake lines are must.

I had this fade problem on all of my M3s and felt none on my Carrera S. Actually, the only category I feel superior about Porsche over BMW is BRAKE department. 

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Mike S:

Gnil:

intouch1:

the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.

It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!!

It is just not acceptable anymore !!!

 

Don't get me started. Over here it's around $290,000

 

In Denmark the price is as follows:

Now stop your whining already

LL:

Mike S:

Gnil:

intouch1:

the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.

It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!!

It is just not acceptable anymore !!!

 

Don't get me started. Over here it's around $290,000

 

 

In Denmark the price is as follows:

Porsche 911 GT3 RS:

3,139,084 DKK / 607,079 USD!

 

Now stop your whining already

 WHAAAAAT?!    i could get 2 scuds for that price here in DR.

 ^^ actually no, a Scud and a regular 430. but then again buying a 430 now would be a monumental financial mistake.

You cannot buy a new F430 anymore! Unless you are talking about the Spider.

A nice example (I know, I know, you can't really compare it because of fluctuating exchange rates, cost of living, salaries, etc. etc. etc.) but still interesting:

a BMW X5 M is around 86000 USD in the US. Add lets say 8% local tax to it and you end up with  aprox. 93000 USD.

In Germany, the base price of a X5 M is around 107000 EUR incl. 19% VAT.

In the US, the base price incl. local tax of 8% would be 65000 EUR.

Meaning: the X5 M costs in Germany 42000 EUR more than in the US.

Meaning: the X5 M costs in Germany 60000 USD more than in the US.

60000...SIXTYTHOUSAND more.

On the other hand, in the US most X5 M go for moderate mark-ups to customers but of course some go for MSRP or 3000-4000 USD below that.

In Germany, you usually get 15% on a brandnew X5 M, if you're lucky even up to 20-21%.

Another example: Cayenne Turbo S. Base price in the US is 126000 USD. Add 8% local tax and you have aprox. 136000 USD.

Base price in Germany is 134000 EUR incl. 19% VAT. In USD, this would mean aprox. 192000 USD.

Meaning: the Cayenne Turbo S costs in Germany 56000 USD more than in the US.

Amen.

--
 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Sure but regardless of different margins or extremely high amounts of registration tax, what the buyer will be impacted by is the end user price.

So even if you pay 60000 USD more than in the US, as a consumer you still get it so much cheaper than in the tax hell called Denmark on the other side of the German border. And cost of living, salary levels, etc are not that much different between Denmark and Germany.

So in your case, I think you should be happy (or at least try your best to be :)) that you are still able to buy a nice car like a X5 M or Porsche at an "affordable" price in your home country. Or at least be glad that you are not living in communistic and crazy Denmark.

In my home country I will need to be very wealthy to be able to afford and maintain "just" a Boxster S (Manual) which will set me back around 225,000 USD, let alone the X5 M which will tear out my heart and soul at 420,000 USD.

Danish maintenance costs are as a rule of thumb about twice that of German service and repair costs (often even more) - based on Audi and BMW prices. And don't even get me started on insurance costs - that is if they will even insure you. So all in all you are screwed however you choose to look at it.

End of rant :)

P.S. congrats on your nice X5 M!

So basically car prices in the US is just too low, they need to be raised at least 20% across the board just to bring US up to the standard of the rest of the world :)

Whoopsy:

So basically car prices in the US is just too low, they need to be raised at least 20% across the board just to bring US up to the standard of the rest of the world :)

I just say Americans are "spoiled" regarding car prices. They are "spoiled" regarding fuel and energy prices too. As a hint: fuel is almost three times more over here in Germany, energy...depending on amount and type of energy...up to 2-4 times more expensive.

I remember when a guy at a US fuel station came to me, I was driving a rented Hummer, and asked me if I could still afford buying fuel for this baby. When I told him about fuel prices in Germany (hint: by that time around 9 USD per gallon), he thought I was making fun of him, he couldn't believe it.

Viva Europa...everything for green...oops...blue skies.

Regarding Denmark: I know, it must be horrible.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW