Crown

Guess that´s nothing like first hand experience like PorSchelover1 has, thanks for the pics and your credible opinion

J.Seven

J.Seven:

 

Guess that´s nothing like first hand experience like PorSchelover1 has, thanks for the pics and your credible opinion

J.Seven

my opinion again

in INTERLAGOS F1 Circuit  in  Porsche Day,    i went 18 laps with 997GT3 RS and my best lap time was in 15º lap and with 997s i run in 2 days in INTERLAGOS 637kms and the car is OK, NO PROBLEM!!

in Ferrari Day i went wiht my F430 2008 with "ceramic brakes", Ferrari is a good car too, but my felling is total diferent,  When to compare with Porsches,  with my F430 i stoped  the laps in 10º lap

Wow!  just what I wanted to know!  Thanks for the interesting inputs!  Great to have someone who has owned both types of cars and can give his first-hand experience! 

PorSchelover1:

J.Seven:

 

Guess that´s nothing like first hand experience like PorSchelover1 has, thanks for the pics and your credible opinion

J.Seven

my opinion again

in INTERLAGOS F1 Circuit  in  Porsche Day,    i went 18 laps with 997GT3 RS and my best lap time was in 15º lap and with 997s i run in 2 days in INTERLAGOS 637kms and the car is OK, NO PROBLEM!!

in Ferrari Day i went wiht my F430 2008 with "ceramic brakes", Ferrari is a good car too, but my felling is total diferent,  When to compare with Porsches,  with my F430 i stoped  the laps in 10º lap

+2. thanks for your credible opinion. That is what what i was looking for and it came at a perfect time.

@ RACERX: 

Racerx:

might have been true 20 years ago but not now, Ferraris F1 program has really benefited the road cars and they kick butt on Porsche in the engineering area. No dispute.

Just reading the above which car had better engineering again?

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
_____________________________________________________________________
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

Thanks for posting Porsche lover, I have never driven a Ferrari so I could only comment on my experience in a 997s, 997tt, and most recently 997.2 GT3. That is a beautiful 430, but I love your RS!

I have 2 points here,

1) that 20 years ago it was indisputable that Porsche had the best engineering. That has changed, these other companies have caught and in many respects passed Porsche and now Porsche can be best described as competitive.

2) That all these other companies make better looking and sounding (i.e. passionate, exotic, sensational) cars than anything for sale in a Porsche dealership today. That has all happened by choice, the choice of a now FIRED executive who lost Porsche independence. 

I have personally driven as hard as you can a 997 C2S and a Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale.

I have also been on dozens of rides with all the top exotics, in the real world not youtube.

Now anecdotal evidence (from Porschelover1 above ^^) is nice but I can point to all kinds of people who will say the opposite. And as far as quality everyone can bring up sore points like RMS.

If you say you would rather own and drive a 911 over an Aston V12 Vantage or DBS or One-77 or Lambo LP670 or Ferrari 458 or Ferrari 599, then fine, that's ok. But to my ears and eyes those and many others look and sound better.

This is the European FIA GT3 championship and that is where the real engineering is displayed - AM I READING THIS WRONG OR IS THE PORSCHE GETTING BEAT BY MANY OTHER BRANDS?    http://www.fiagt3.com/points.php?season=2009&class=GT3&type=team&event=1

I am not an internet keyboard bench racer, I own a fast car that I have driven a lot in the company of other real cars, magazine lap times don't matter, looks, comfort, and handling do. 

IMO nobody does it better today than Aston Martin.

Some of you guys act like this is a cult and there can only be 1 view, well you better jump in on this thread because I hear many people praising a BMW product over a Porsche. 

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20095736/Thoughts_Cayenne_Turbo_vs_X6_/page1.html

lighten up and go out and breathe some fresh air, and go for a drive in your PORSCHE.

PorSchelover1:

J.Seven:

 

Guess that´s nothing like first hand experience like PorSchelover1 has, thanks for the pics and your credible opinion

J.Seven

my opinion again

in INTERLAGOS F1 Circuit  in  Porsche Day,    i went 18 laps with 997GT3 RS and my best lap time was in 15º lap and with 997s i run in 2 days in INTERLAGOS 637kms and the car is OK, NO PROBLEM!!

in Ferrari Day i went wiht my F430 2008 with "ceramic brakes", Ferrari is a good car too, but my felling is total diferent,  When to compare with Porsches,  with my F430 i stoped  the laps in 10º lap

WOW, you must be one of the very few Porsche and Ferrari owner who give proper use to this toys, THE TRACK . Thanks again fro sharing your wonderful ownership experience with this great cars .

J.Seven

racerx:

 IMO nobody does it better today than Aston Martin.

mmmmmm No

And since no thread would be complete without a 928 reference, Here is some impressive TRACK evidence of quality,

(quoting a french owner and 928 info expert who has written for christophorus) 

928 at Nardo

racerx:

Now anecdotal evidence (from Porschelover1 above ^^) is nice but I can point to all kinds of people who will say the opposite.

"Anecdotal" evidence Porschelover gave is the norm, not the exception. Nothing I've grabbed somewehere in the virtual world, but own observation at dozens of track days.
 

And what about the 928 doing 10 X the distance in 1/2 the time 16 years prior?

Just gloss over that like it doesn't exist, tough to converse with people wearing blinders.

When did I say the 997 was not well made? Yet no credit to the 928, just insults and ignorance (in general).

Racerx, common you know that i love the 928. The luxority and comfort put into the machine coupled with the performance and engineering quality truly is Porsche's masterpiece. It was their V8 attempt and i believe it was also the fastest production car for a while.

However, it was meant to replace the 911 and i think it was way ahead of its time and therefore failed. People didn't want a heavy, comfortable and fast V8 automatic. I can see this car doing much better today with the way things have gone.

I give the 928 all the credit where it is due but i can also say that i personally would not go for one right now simply because i feel like it is not sporty enough. This has to be accepted. it is heavy, it is automatic, and yes ok it is stunningly fast, but sporty (to me)? No.
I can honestly say my shitty little 1986 325e excites me more than a 928 would (and i was close to buying several when i looked at upgrades from my 944) 2.7L , 120hp (hahaha), 5spd, M-sport suspension, 1160kg, 50/50 weight and RWD! 

As for this thread, they are both great almost identical cars so it comes down to personal preferences. 

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
_____________________________________________________________________
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

Atz it is sportier than most drivers can handle - wether acceleration, cornering, or top speed (the right model), but like intouch said "to each their own", however read below if you want to know if the "928 was supposed to replace the 911"

Don't take my word for it

Please read this and learn some PORSCHE history and 928 history - not a book by any means but an intro with some very intereting facts

11 TOP PORSCHE EXECUTIVES give their history and impressions including inside stories of Ferry.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/download/Germany928Club.pdf

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Quiz question after reading - What was the California circus?

racerx:

Atz it is sportier than most drivers can handle - wether acceleration, cornering, or top speed (the right model), but like intouch said "to each their own", however read below if you want to know if the "928 was supposed to replace the 911"

 

Don't take my word for it

Please read this and learn some PORSCHE history and 928 history - not a book by any means but an intro with some very intereting facts

11 TOP PORSCHE EXECUTIVES give their history and impressions including inside stories of Ferry.

http://www.porsche928forums.com/download/Germany928Club.pdf

Quiz question after reading - What was the California circus?

Wow, very interesting read! Didn't know a lot of those details described.

California circus the name given to Ferry Porsche's home garage after he had made it  available as a test facility for US spec emissions.
 

indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
_____________________________________________________________________
1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

intouch1:

italians.....label on the outside

germans.....label on the inside

americans......label across the sleeve

racerx:

That ^^ might have been true 20 years ago but not now, Ferraris F1 program has really benefited the road cars and they kick butt on Porsche in the engineering area. No dispute.

No offense BUT Ferrari are the only factory team still in F1 from day dot (50+ years) and for as long as I can remember they hadn't won sh!t until a german came along and taught them to build a winner... They've always charged mega $$$$ for road cars but couldn't build a race car if their lives depended on it... Says little for Ferrari's engineering ability in my opinion considering they claimed everything spent bucket loads of money and were able to achieve nothing till Schumacher joined them...

Furthermore, references have been made to the top gear lap times... the gt3 on that board is the 996 mk2 and it wasn't moist, it was pissing down rain the day it was tested. Furthermore, the RS that is dismissed as being medioca is 8 years old and faster than most modern day supercars. Funny how they gave the 997 gt3 and RS a miss for testing- personally, whilst I love the show, Clarkson's opinion means sh!t because he is heavily biased and he is entitled to his opinion. Figures speak for themselves and the 996 gt3 RS is amongst the fastest non supercars on that list. More recent incarnations have gotten even faster, where would they sit on the list if they were tested rather than being overlooked???

And references to NBR lap times- well all I can say is that Porsche have been sub 8min for 9 years- and I'm not even talking GT3s, we are talking Carrera variants- Where have Ferrari and others been.... Sure, Porsche may not be top of the tree BUT it will only be an issue when I can get within a minute of that time anyway.... A standard 997.2 GT3 is within 1sec of a track preped scuderia- Not bad, I'd say for a car that isn't even entirely track focused like the RS... And mind you in the recent Supertest it scored higher than both the GTR and Ferrari... Supercar performance at sportscar price- who can complain with that...

Now as for MY opinion: You love Porsche or you love Ferrari- each to their own.

I prefer Porsche and I'm awaiting delivery of a GT3... Why?

Because in my opinion it is the best value for money sports car out there barr none. Its fast, it handles, it challenges the driver, its rock solid, its purposeful and yet able to be used every day if required... yeh, it may not sound or look as great as a Ferrari in the opinion of some but it sounds & looks amazing to me. As many have pointed out, it goes comparably to Ferraris and Lambos twice its value and it does this with half the cylinders and far less capacity. Furthermore it is so durable and maintenance friendly that you don't have to mortgage your home for your next service. Unless you're so cashed up that you wipe your ass with $100 notes, all of this is VERY relevant in the real world if you intend to use one of these cars for its intended purpose. Sure they may have an RMS issue occasionally but Ferraris and Lambos have a love for spontaneously combusting. I know which scenario I would prefer.

Please understand, I am not saying Porsche is better- so you don't have to sit there disecting all my arguments. I'm simply saying that Porsche is better for ME and these are some of the reasons why...

IMO opinion Porsche and Ferrari are both automotive icons but they are so different because they reflect the character and the mentality of their respective countries of origin. Both countries are great to my estimation but very different and so are their cars and other products for that matter.

Porsche is more about thorough engineering, robustness and performance every day for a long time. On the downside Porsches are a bit common and boring too some people.

Ferrari is about flamboyance and extrovert personality, speed at measured doses and it requires extravagance and dedication to get the best out of it.

I don't think either is better or worse than the other. It's a matter of preference and taste.

Some prefer Monica Bellucci others Claudia Schiffer. How can you tell who is wrong and who is right

911rox:

racerx:

That ^^ might have been true 20 years ago but not now, Ferraris F1 program has really benefited the road cars and they kick butt on Porsche in the engineering area. No dispute.

No offense BUT Ferrari are the only factory team still in F1 from day dot (50+ years) and for as long as I can remember they hadn't won sh!t until a german came along and taught them to build a winner... They've always charged mega $$$$ for road cars but couldn't build a race car if their lives depended on it... Says little for Ferrari's engineering ability in my opinion considering they claimed everything spent bucket loads of money and were able to achieve nothing till Schumacher joined them...

Furthermore, references have been made to the top gear lap times... the gt3 on that board is the 996 mk2 and it wasn't moist, it was pissing down rain the day it was tested. Furthermore, the RS that is dismissed as being medioca is 8 years old and faster than most modern day supercars. Funny how they gave the 997 gt3 and RS a miss for testing- personally, whilst I love the show, Clarkson's opinion means sh!t because he is heavily biased and he is entitled to his opinion. Figures speak for themselves and the 996 gt3 RS is amongst the fastest non supercars on that list. More recent incarnations have gotten even faster, where would they sit on the list if they were tested rather than being overlooked???

And references to NBR lap times- well all I can say is that Porsche have been sub 8min for 9 years- and I'm not even talking GT3s, we are talking Carrera variants- Where have Ferrari and others been.... Sure, Porsche may not be top of the tree BUT it will only be an issue when I can get within a minute of that time anyway.... A standard 997.2 GT3 is within 1sec of a track preped scuderia- Not bad, I'd say for a car that isn't even entirely track focused like the RS... And mind you in the recent Supertest it scored higher than both the GTR and Ferrari... Supercar performance at sportscar price- who can complain with that...

Now as for MY opinion: You love Porsche or you love Ferrari- each to their own.

I prefer Porsche and I'm awaiting delivery of a GT3... Why?

Because in my opinion it is the best value for money sports car out there barr none. Its fast, it handles, it challenges the driver, its rock solid, its purposeful and yet able to be used every day if required... yeh, it may not sound or look as great as a Ferrari in the opinion of some but it sounds & looks amazing to me. As many have pointed out, it goes comparably to Ferraris and Lambos twice its value and it does this with half the cylinders and far less capacity. Furthermore it is so durable and maintenance friendly that you don't have to mortgage your home for your next service. Unless you're so cashed up that you wipe your ass with $100 notes, all of this is VERY relevant in the real world if you intend to use one of these cars for its intended purpose. Sure they may have an RMS issue occasionally but Ferraris and Lambos have a love for spontaneously combusting. I know which scenario I would prefer.

Please understand, I am not saying Porsche is better- so you don't have to sit there disecting all my arguments. I'm simply saying that Porsche is better for ME and these are some of the reasons why...

 

Well that is a more reasonable and more realistic response. You only spent half of your post venting vitriol on Ferrari and trying to justify GT3 status.

But, you don't have to be with one or the other and there is not just 2. Aston, Mercedes AMG, BMW M power, and Lambo come to mind. But thats the problem around here - too much 997 do or die fanaticism without recognizing anything but what they want to see.
 

At least you recognize that the scud is 1 sec better as you say than a 997.2 GT3. And I assume you recognize that the 458 will improve upon that. So FORGET the price excuse and admit that Ferrari ENGINEERS a better or at least equivalent road car in this category. 

Because if you want to fall back on value the ZR-1 will win. It beats a GT2 on acceleration, will outbreak a GT3, and show others how to do the NBR all at the BEST PRICE. 

Why not just say I like my GT3 and it gives me great pleasure to own it, and talk about its great features. Why the chip on the shoulder routine for so many here? Why not recognize these other great cars? Give credit where credit is due. 

My "kick butt" term comes from the fact that 20 years ago Porsche had the 928 that beat the 12 cylinder ferrari at most everything and was a lot better than the 8 cylinder ferrari. Porsche had the 911 that competed very well against the 8 cylinder fcar. But for 15 years now Porsche has been down to 1 entrant and now the 911 is struggling against the 8 cylinder fcar and nothing to go against the 599/612.

That also requires some realism, for all the 997 fanatics to admit the 928 was a fantastic car, that drove for 24 hours straight at speeds the 911 could not even reach for many years after.

So enjoy your 997 variants, they are very nice, but do it with some class and some reality.

racerx:

[...] Give credit where credit is due. [...]

In fact, I only know of one person on Rennteam that praises his car over everybody else´s...

So now it´s the whole forum that has a chip on its shoulder for lack of acknowledgment. Ridiculous.

Ferdie:

racerx:

[...] Give credit where credit is due. [...]

 

In fact, I only know of one person on Rennteam that praises his car over everybody else´s...

So now it´s the whole forum that has a chip on its shoulder for lack of acknowledgment. Ridiculous.

That is very telling in light of the thread wondering where all the posters are? So in your mind  "the whole forum" = vocal 997 fanatics.

But it seems to be the case, most aston owners have left, most fcar only and some fcar/porsche owners are scarce. The few lambo only owners have left.

Most americans have left.

If you owned a ferrari how would you feel reading this thread?

If you are the voice of the forum, then rennteam is surely doomed  You, Ferdie, are Europes' mmd.

I praise many cars, I also post facts. I posted a thread in "other sports cars" with 2 thrilling videos showing a ZR-1 and A Lambo, not 1 comment. Corvette owners were chased away years ago.

I post many threads on Aston, praising their beauty, performance, and design.

I post many threads on Ferrari - praising the 512 TR, the daytona, the 348 , and the 355.

not to mention american muscle cars.

Don't let facts stand in your way.   

Tom,

your perception has become rather odd, not to mention your reasoning. If that´d affect only myself, fine with me... Interesting to see there are a few others that share my view.

racerx:

But it seems to be the case, most aston owners have left, most fcar only and some fcar/porsche owners are scarce. The few lambo only owners have left.

Most americans have left.

If you owned a ferrari how would you feel reading this thread?

So many people have left, it isn´t a matter of brands or nations. You are trying to make a statement that doesn´t fit. Besides that, noone is debating about that topic, do it here.

reginos:

IMO opinion Porsche and Ferrari are both automotive icons but they are so different because they reflect the character and the mentality of their respective countries of origin. Both countries are great to my estimation but very different and so are their cars and other products for that matter.

Porsche is more about thorough engineering, robustness and performance every day for a long time. On the downside Porsches are a bit common and boring too some people.

Ferrari is about flamboyance and extrovert personality, speed at measured doses and it requires extravagance and dedication to get the best out of it.

I don't think either is better or worse than the other. It's a matter of preference and taste.

Some prefer Monica Bellucci others Claudia Schiffer. How can you tell who is wrong and who is right

Perfetly put, and now we need to put this ridiculous set of unnecessary personal attacks to rest.  

Arshad:

reginos:

IMO opinion Porsche and Ferrari are both automotive icons but they are so different because they reflect the character and the mentality of their respective countries of origin. Both countries are great to my estimation but very different and so are their cars and other products for that matter.

Porsche is more about thorough engineering, robustness and performance every day for a long time. On the downside Porsches are a bit common and boring too some people.

Ferrari is about flamboyance and extrovert personality, speed at measured doses and it requires extravagance and dedication to get the best out of it.

I don't think either is better or worse than the other. It's a matter of preference and taste.

Some prefer Monica Bellucci others Claudia Schiffer. How can you tell who is wrong and who is right

Perfetly put, and now we need to put this ridiculous set of unnecessary personal attacks to rest.  

+1

J.Seven

racerx:

Well that is a more reasonable and more realistic response. You only spent half of your post venting vitriol on Ferrari and trying to justify GT3 status.

But, you don't have to be with one or the other and there is not just 2. Aston, Mercedes AMG, BMW M power, and Lambo come to mind. But thats the problem around here - too much 997 do or die fanaticism without recognizing anything but what they want to see.
 

At least you recognize that the scud is 1 sec better as you say than a 997.2 GT3. And I assume you recognize that the 458 will improve upon that. So FORGET the price excuse and admit that Ferrari ENGINEERS a better or at least equivalent road car in this category. 

Because if you want to fall back on value the ZR-1 will win. It beats a GT2 on acceleration, will outbreak a GT3, and show others how to do the NBR all at the BEST PRICE. 

 

 

 

Why not just say I like my GT3 and it gives me great pleasure to own it, and talk about its great features. Why the chip on the shoulder routine for so many here? Why not recognize these other great cars? Give credit where credit is due. 

 

 

 

My "kick butt" term comes from the fact that 20 years ago Porsche had the 928 that beat the 12 cylinder ferrari at most everything and was a lot better than the 8 cylinder ferrari. Porsche had the 911 that competed very well against the 8 cylinder fcar. But for 15 years now Porsche has been down to 1 entrant and now the 911 is struggling against the 8 cylinder fcar and nothing to go against the 599/612.

That also requires some realism, for all the 997 fanatics to admit the 928 was a fantastic car, that drove for 24 hours straight at speeds the 911 could not even reach for many years after.

So enjoy your 997 variants, they are very nice, but do it with some class and some reality. 

  

Racerx, my intention was not to vent vitriol on Ferrari but rather to counter some of the inconsistant comments made in this thread. I have nothing against Ferrari, Lambo and Aston- they just don't offer the right mix of features for me...

As for engineering, has Ferrari stepped up? Yes, definitely- but are they leaving everyone in their wake, No, I don't think so as they would need to sort out some reliability issues for that to be said....The cars are certainly fast, all be it with fancy electronics...

Regarding the ZR1, I have mates who have worked in engineering and R&D with GM... It may have done an extraordinary time but it took like 7+ ltrs and a mega diet to achieve this BUT most importantly it is built like crap... He didn't work on that particular car but the build quality at GM is so bad that dispite being a fan since childhood, he now refuses to buy their cars having worked for them... Kind of explains their predicament in the US today with bankrupcy... You may do a 7:25 today, but you'll probably be unable to complete a lap in 5 yrs time. When they can build a ZR1 that can do it all day, everyday.... I'll gladly embrace GM too...

Finally, as for the 928, in my case- it is not a case of not wanting to acknowledge its achievements, I don't know enough about its achievements to care as I was pushing along Tonka trucks when it was doing its thing...I'm sure it was amazing BUT today I hardly even see any around on the streets... I simply choose to make my decisions based on the present as these are the cars I've grown up around....

Please don't misconstrue my preference for Porsche as being fanatical... I respect the products of others even if I don't prefer them for me...

Very Good ^^  

Tonka's are well built 

here's 1 for you

^^^^ lol.... It was something like that... just bright yellow in color :)

911rox:

 

Regarding the ZR1, I have mates who have worked in engineering and R&D with GM... It may have done an extraordinary time but it took like 7+ ltrs and a mega diet to achieve this BUT most importantly it is built like crap... He didn't work on that particular car but the build quality at GM is so bad that dispite being a fan since childhood, he now refuses to buy their cars having worked for them... Kind of explains their predicament in the US today with bankrupcy... You may do a 7:25 today, but you'll probably be unable to complete a lap in 5 yrs time. When they can build a ZR1 that can do it all day, everyday.... I'll gladly embrace GM too...

That´s unfortunately telling... I am a fan of the C6 for its performance and character, just not sure, as you said, how it will hold up in consecutive use. I would love to find out from the forum´s C6 owners (that are hopefully still present).

Ferdie:

... I am a fan of the C6 for its performance and character, just not sure, as you said, how it will hold up in consecutive use. I would love to find out from the forum´s C6 owners (that are hopefully still present).

Well, Ferdie - I think it depends on your definition of "use" or maybe better "abuse" ?  I agree with you regarding performance and character (even more so for the Z06 ) Unfortunately these cars suffer from thermic engine problems on the track (BTW one of those issues perfectly solved by the "not so innovative" Porsche). Typical scenario for a buddy with his Z06 on the track: lap 1 - he overtakes really everything except for the 997 GT2s (I feel like driving a Beetle in my GT3 ). Lap 2 - he enjoys a lap in clean air leading the entire pack. Lap 3 - it's time for a cool down in the pitlane  I'm not talking about the 20.8 km Nordschleife but the 5.1 km GP-Circuit...He's on his third engine now after 2 seasons (though kudos to GM for replacing them each time under warranty ) As he also owns a 997 GT3 he always suffers a severe dilemma when going to the track: when he wants to clock the fastest lap he needs the Z06, when he wants a reliable car he needs the GT3. Maybe I should talk him into a GT2 to solve the dilemma