Crown

Rossi:

JoeRockhead:

I heard on the news that Schumacher has borrowed his old F1 car and is testing in that right now. I guess that`s not against the new rule. I`m sure he`s in great shape and will be very competitive.

It's actually Raikonnen's car from 2007. Ferrari has borrowed it from a private owner ("clienti") and brought it back on the track.
 

Exactly.

reginos:

From Autosport.com:

"Ferrari is still awaiting a response from rival teams to its request for an exemption to the testing ban to let Schumacher try the 2009 car before Valencia."

You think it will be granted?

I heard somewhere he has been granted one day of testing in the 2009 car before Valencia - will try to find the source..

--

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

Found it ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8178345.stm

Apparently FOTA have agreed to one day, but it needs to be sanctioned by the FIA...

--

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

Whoopsy:

But can Schummy be that dominant had he went to say Williams or Sauber? Can WIlliams or Sauber at that time afford to hire away the whole winning team from Benetton?

You forgot that Schumacher did just that with Benetton, they were nowhere near as good prior and after his time with this team. Only Alonso, after the team was converted to become factory-driven by Renault, had the talent and commitment to do just that.

So yes, it was Schumacher who propelled both Benetton and Ferrari to the level they had temporarily been at and one can see the difference he made. As I said, only Alonso and Schumacher and, at good times, Hamilton seem to have the talent to successfully finish with an inferior car, just so as Senna has done in the past.

Exactly - at Benetton, Schumi and Martin Brundle were driving the same car - but their results were very different  Schumi could obtain performance that ordinary F1 drivers could never get from the car...

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easy_rider911:

Exactly - at Benetton, Schumi and Martin Brundle were driving the same car - but their results were very different  Schumi could obtain performance that ordinary F1 drivers could never get from the car...

At Beneton wasn'it Johnny Herbert? 

Ferdie:

You forgot that Schumacher did just that with Benetton, they were nowhere near as good prior and after his time with this team. Only Alonso, after the team was converted to become factory-driven by Renault, had the talent and commitment to do just that.

So yes, it was Schumacher who propelled both Benetton and Ferrari to the level they had temporarily been at and one can see the difference he made. As I said, only Alonso and Schumacher and, at good times, Hamilton seem to have the talent to successfully finish with an inferior car, just so as Senna has done in the past.

I wouldn't put Alonso in the same catagory with Schumacher,quite insulting to Michael. Only the late Senna would be in the same league on pure driving skills. Especially in the wet where car control is most tested.

Hamilton is not there yet, he is quite brilliant in the wet but he still have much to learn. He has already proved he has the raw speed but he is prone to brain dead moments on the track, witness how he gifted the 07 title to a lucky Kimi.

I seems to recall Alonso's Renault was head and shoulder above the competition, boosted by the tuned mass damper and sticky Michellin tires. But in 2006 after the mass damper was ruled illegal, Alonso was pretty much out of sign until the end of the season.

In an equally fast McLaren, the rookie Hamilton was also consistantly faster than the double world champ.

Ziggy:

easy_rider911:

Exactly - at Benetton, Schumi and Martin Brundle were driving the same car - but their results were very different  Schumi could obtain performance that ordinary F1 drivers could never get from the car...

At Beneton wasn'it Johnny Herbert? 

It were more or less all of his team mates that Schumacher dominated, Massa and Barrichello being the only ones that could beat him once in a while.

Whoopsy:

I wouldn't put Alonso in the same catagory with Schumacher,quite insulting to Michael. Only the late Senna would be in the same league on pure driving skills. Especially in the wet where car control is most tested. [...]

I seems to recall Alonso's Renault was head and shoulder above the competition, boosted by the tuned mass damper and sticky Michellin tires. But in 2006 after the mass damper was ruled illegal, Alonso was pretty much out of sign until the end of the season.

Buddy,

get your records straight! Alonso won the championship in 2006, so what are you talking about? Alonso and Schumacher are both well known for their effort to push forward their respective teams, having both the will and talent to develop a car into the right direction.

Hamilton is a great driver as long as the car is good, if that is not the case he will fall behind. Drivers like Mansell, Barrichello or Hamilton are very, very fast if the car delivers, if not they will fall behind. Senna, Schumacher and Alonso, the later having shown this talent the last two years at Renault, can handle even an inferior car at a very fast pace - that is the difference a great driver makes over a good one.

Williams oppose Schumacher test

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77534

They are right by the book, but unfortunately they cannot see the big picture. The pull that the MS return can have in a lacklustre F1 season.

Also does this test session not prevent safety issue?  I mean driving for a first time an unknown car on an unknown race track?

Please, stop mentioning Hamilton when you're speaking about Senna and Schmacher... it's not even close.

Ferdie:

 

Buddy,

get your records straight! Alonso won the championship in 2006, so what are you talking about? Alonso and Schumacher are both well known for their effort to push forward their respective teams, having both the will and talent to develop a car into the right direction.

Hamilton is a great driver as long as the car is good, if that is not the case he will fall behind. Drivers like Mansell, Barrichello or Hamilton are very, very fast if the car delivers, if not they will fall behind. Senna, Schumacher and Alonso, the later having shown this talent the last two years at Renault, can handle even an inferior car at a very fast pace - that is the difference a great driver makes over a good one.

Alonso fanboi I presume?

Please go and check up on the 2006 season before posting more, you are embrassing yourself here.

First half of the season Alonso was pretty much setting the pace with the illegal mass damper equiped Renault, but right after it got banned he dropped off the pace, he didn't win again until the end of the season, off the top of my head, I think it was the 3rd last race, when Renault finally found the speed they lost without the mass damper. He officially clinch the title 2nd to last race.

The Brawn areo package this year reminds me of the 06 season, difference being the aero package is ruled legal while the mass damper is not. I see Brawn/Button finding the lost speed advantage again before the end of the year and wins the title.

Since it's a well known fact that Hamilton is faster than Alonso in a equal car, and I do not consider naming Hamilton in the same bunch as Schummacher/Senna, Alonso is NOT in that group. Also, Schummy is not well known to whine when things doesn't go his way.

Alonso however, is in the same catagory as Mikka Hakkinen, both double world champs with superior speed in a superior car, which is pretty good company as Hakkinen is great champ himself. Hamilton follows closely as he would have been already a double world champ if he had any brains on the race track.

Whoopsy,

I see your point but Ferdie and Easy are right (IMHO of course  ).  It is true that the Renault lost some pace after the mass dumper interdiction but nevertheless after some races where the Renault lacked some speed it then recover it.  Remember Suzuka 2006 when MS retired because his engine broke?  Alonso's Renault was basically as fast during that race.  You also have to take into account that Alonso like the great and experienced drivers knows how to manage a race and in some races (Brazil 2006 for e.g.) he is reasonable to drive conservatively, unlike Hamilton in China 2007 for e.g.  That is why he sometimes does not look so fast.

That being said and even though I value Alonso as the best driver surrently on the grid I do not value him as much as MS.  One is among the greatest whereas the other is unique.  For me MS is like Federer, Tiger Woods, Pele, etc there is only one.  Maybe Senna can be comparable.  No one ever did what he achived at Beneton and Ferrari, i.e. bringing a whole Team from the middle of the grid to the top as not only the best driver but as a complete Team leader.  That being said he did that not alone but with a great technical staff, 2 members of which were the same at Beneton and Ferrari. That of the latter has been often dubbed the Dream Team (MS, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Paolo Martinelli).

Ziggy:

easy_rider911:

Exactly - at Benetton, Schumi and Martin Brundle were driving the same car - but their results were very different  Schumi could obtain performance that ordinary F1 drivers could never get from the car...

At Beneton wasn'it Johnny Herbert? 

Here's the Wikipedia article:

"... This helped Brundle get a 1992 switch to Benetton, with whom he would finally claim a recognised podium finish and consistent points finishes with some gritty drives.

In 1992 he had a productive season, with a strong finish to the year. He came close to a win at Canada, where having overtaken Schumacher and closing on leader Gerhard Berger, the transmission failed[5]. He never outqualified team-mate Michael Schumacher, but made up places with excellent starts (sixth to third at Silverstone), outraced the German at Imola, Montreal, Magny-Cours and Silverstone, and scored a notable second place at Monza. At Spa, Brundle went by when Schumacher went off the track. Schumacher noticed blisters on his team-mate's tyres on his return to the circuit and came in for slicks, a move that won him the race. Had Brundle not been distracted he would have pitted as planned at the end of that lap, with victory the most likely result. 1992 was his best F1 season[3], and is regarded in F1 as the closest any team mate has come to match Schumacher.[7]

To the shock of the F1 paddock[6], Brundle found himself dropped from Benetton for 1993, Italian Riccardo Patrese taking his place..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Brundle

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Williams blocked Schumi's testing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8178345.stm

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Whoopsy:

First half of the season Alonso was pretty much setting the pace with the illegal mass damper equiped Renault, but right after it got banned he dropped off the pace, he didn't win again until the end of the season, off the top of my head, I think it was the 3rd last race, when Renault finally found the speed they lost without the mass damper. He officially clinch the title 2nd to last race. [...]

Alonso however, is in the same catagory as Mikka Hakkinen, both double world champs with superior speed in a superior car, which is pretty good company as Hakkinen is great champ himself. Hamilton follows closely as he would have been already a double world champ if he had any brains on the race track.

Sorry, that is a oversimplification on your side - Alonso did not finish two of the races and came in fifth in two races (both times faster than his teammate). Apart from that, I do not understand how this reflects Alonso´s true talent or, from your standpoint, lack thereof.

I see things rather objectively, as far as this can be done at all in such a complex sports such as motor racing. Alonso and Schumacher do have the talent to push their respective teams and your example of season 2006 just underlines that. As I said, both are competitive even in inferior cars but since you obviously believe in the opposite, judging by your last post, I just keep you in that state of mind.

Ziggy:

That being said and even though I value Alonso as the best driver surrently on the grid I do not value him as much as MS.  One is among the greatest whereas the other is unique.  For me MS is like Federer, Tiger Woods, Pele, etc there is only one.  Maybe Senna can be comparable.  No one ever did what he achived at Beneton and Ferrari, i.e. bringing a whole Team from the middle of the grid to the top as not only the best driver but as a complete Team leader.  That being said he did that not alone but with a great technical staff, 2 members of which were the same at Beneton and Ferrari. That of the latter has been often dubbed the Dream Team (MS, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Paolo Martinelli).

I totally agree. Schumacher has had an unrivalled talent in that field, that´s what makes it so interesting to watch in the upcoming races!

Ferdie:

Ziggy:

That being said and even though I value Alonso as the best driver surrently on the grid I do not value him as much as MS.  One is among the greatest whereas the other is unique.  For me MS is like Federer, Tiger Woods, Pele, etc there is only one.  Maybe Senna can be comparable.  No one ever did what he achived at Beneton and Ferrari, i.e. bringing a whole Team from the middle of the grid to the top as not only the best driver but as a complete Team leader.  That being said he did that not alone but with a great technical staff, 2 members of which were the same at Beneton and Ferrari. That of the latter has been often dubbed the Dream Team (MS, Jean Todt, Ross Brawn, Rory Byrne, Paolo Martinelli).

I totally agree. Schumacher has had an unrivalled talent in that field, that´s what makes it so interesting to watch in the upcoming races!

+1. I also agree with woopsy as far as Alonso's talent. I really don't see evidence of him being anywhere near Schumi. Hamilton shows more evidence of being truly good at leading the team and getting 110% out of the given car. Alonso has not shown that yet. 2006 season was sadly for him and an exmaple of complete dominance. Look at where Renault went after? They just disappeared.

1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Cosmos Blau on Tan leather.
2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)

Talented drivers are fast in the car, especially when the car is good. Great drivers are very good outside the car too, maintaining and motivating the Team around them with their personality and giving valuable feedback to the engineers.

Schumacher is of the defintion of latter type. Somebody like Mansell was the epitome of the first type above. Raikkonen falls in the same category too. I haven't been able to classify Alonso yet.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

I find the veto exercised by Williams, Red Bull and Toro Rosso to be foolish. Schumi was not going to test in the 2009 car. He was going to 'acclimatise' himself to driving a F1 car again by driving a much older car (2007 I believe). So Ferrari would not have been able to gain developmental advantages.

Surely when a guy returns to F1 after such a long interval, it is the paramount consideration to ensure the safety of that driver (Schumi) and all the other drivers on the grid. By depriving Schumi of some acclimatisation time, those 3 teams have increased the level of risk that other drivers will face.  

Hopefully, in Schumi's case, his talent will ensure that this increased risk is minimal. If anybody can re-adjust, it's Schumi.  Plus, he has been driving a privately owned 'clienti' car on GP2 tyres - clever move from Ferrari

I find the whole way this incident has played out to be very ironic. We are in this situation because of a tragic incident involving a spring from Barrichello's car that injured poor Felipe Massa. Why behave in a way that ignores the paramount safety consideration?

Anyway, I love the way Ferrari has answered this: (I paraphrase) a team that has won nothing for ages is objecting...    i.e. they have no hope anyway so what conceivable 'advantage' are they conceding...  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8184424.stm

--
 

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of your post.  

But I think you'll find that MS has already tested the 2007 car, with slicks fitted, and it was Ferrari's request for him to test the current car which was rejected by Williams and Red Bull.

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

Atzporsche:

Hamilton shows more evidence of being truly good at leading the team and getting 110% out of the given car. Alonso has not shown that yet. 2006 season was sadly for him and an exmaple of complete dominance. Look at where Renault went after? They just disappeared.

We must have watched two different types of racing.

I in no way want to defend Alonso but Renault and McLaren as well improved at the times he has been there. Even Hamilton admitted that he is very committed working on the car´s development. The on-season test restrictions certainly didn´t help but Renault regularly scored in the upper third and earned two victories in last and recent year´s seasons. That´s not what I define under disappearing.

Schumacher is, in terms of his initiative, in a league of his own, I know no other F1 driver who would still get into a kart and compete against the upcoming generation (where Vettel got his attention a couple of years ago, by the way).

@Ferdie: Exactly - Hamilton just drives whatever McLaren give him. Partly it's because that's how they do things. The drivers drive and the engineers design/build the car. But, tellingly, Lewis once gave an interview in which he said that when he was asked for input on the 2009 car, he told them where to put the buttons on the steering wheel for ease of use.  What about detailed feedback on handling etc?

@John H: thanks for clarifying  Overall though, IMO it's pretty mean-spirited of Williams and also jeopardises safety

Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 C2S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Ferdie:

Sorry, that is a oversimplification on your side - Alonso did not finish two of the races and came in fifth in two races (both times faster than his teammate). Apart from that, I do not understand how this reflects Alonso´s true talent or, from your standpoint, lack thereof.

I see things rather objectively, as far as this can be done at all in such a complex sports such as motor racing. Alonso and Schumacher do have the talent to push their respective teams and your example of season 2006 just underlines that. As I said, both are competitive even in inferior cars but since you obviously believe in the opposite, judging by your last post, I just keep you in that state of mind.

I see you think you see things objectively, but in fact it's quite the opposite, you keep defending Alonso like a true fanboy :)

In any case, if you think Alonso is one of the greatest, then it's fine by, me, some poeple think Takuma Sato is the greatest too.  Maybe he could be a double world champ too had he been driving the 05-06's  superior Renault. :)

We move on now. Williams' probably right about not letting Schumacher drives the current F1 car, that 1 day of 'testing' by Schumacher, he can probably find a few tenth's for Ferrari to improve. Frank knows how good Schumacher really is.

Whoopsy:

In any case, if you think Alonso is one of the greatest, then it's fine by, me, some poeple think Takuma Sato is the greatest too.  Maybe he could be a double world champ too had he been driving the 05-06's  superior Renault. :)

Your comments are becoming ridiculous, Sato might be a good driver but so is Fisichella. The later never made it to a world championship title. I am not defending Alonso, your comments are, at least for quite a few people, simply not correct. If you state something, make sure you do it correctly.

Regarding the deny of Schumacher´s testing day, which teams kept Alguersari from testing? For the sake of safety, both drivers should´ve been allowed at least half a day of testing (convert it to driven distance, if you want). Superior teams such as Ferrari and McLaren have their own simulators anyways which seem to be quite precise when it comes to handling characteristics.

Perhaps it had something to do with Williams being outed of FOTA? Then again, everyone knows what a great developmental driver Schumi is and Ferrari could use the help. I think the admission by Berrnie/FIA that Ferrari are F-1 and that they get more $ etc. etc does nothing but fuel this animosity within the teams. There is absolutely no continuity in the rules or marshalling. Bernie and Max show hints of genuis when it comes to manipulation. F-1 is nothing but politics that interfere with what could be a great show. I'm definitely not a Schumi fan and even I am happy to see what will unfold in the latter part of this season. He won't be in the hunt for the driver's championship so we hopefully won't see any of his  win at all costs moves on track.

Ferdie:

 

Your comments are becoming ridiculous, Sato might be a good driver but so is Fisichella. The later never made it to a world championship title. I am not defending Alonso, your comments are, at least for quite a few people, simply not correct. If you state something, make sure you do it correctly.

Hehe, I am so glad you finally see the light, grouping Alonso with the likes of Schumacher and Senna is as ridiculous as grouping Alonso with Sato. COme on, did you really think I would group Alonso with Sato? I deliberately use him to get your attention  :)

Sato is a good driver, he could run rings around me on a track but he is quite off the pace with his competition. 

Fisichella is a very good driver, he was faster in the same car than a rookie Button, can dog fight with Kimi in a McLaren with a inferior Jordan car, and also proved to be faster than a young Massa in a Sauber. But he is no Alonso.

I do not blindly defend or critize drivers, I will give them fair comments when credits are due. I do not like Alonso one bit as a driver or as a human being, but I do think he is a very good driver on a dry track, he has good natural speed and has already proven that he is better than Fisichella in a equal car. With the help of a superior Renault and his natural speed, he did won back to back titles. He however is NOT in the same catagory with Senna/Schumacher.

Alonso may have the best resume of all the current F1 drivers barring Schumacher, but he is not the fastest. Hamilton is faster in a equal car wet or dry; I also think Massa would also be faster in a equal car. I suspect Button would give Alonso a run for his money. I think Alonso is faster than Kimi and pretty much everyone else on the current grid.

To me, Alonso is the most complete driver of anyone in F1 right now (Schumacher aside of course, but he isn't back in F1 yet until the doctor says so!).  Hamilton was only quick in 07 because of Alonso's development skill.  Hamilton isn't experience or good enough on that front yet.  And this is where the likes of Schumacher and Senna is far better than any of the current crop of drivers.

As for those who thinks that not letting Michael test is a safety concern, think again, this is afterall a 91 race winner and 7 times WC!  It will take him all of Friday's practice sessions to be on par with everyone else.  I am so positive about Michael and his skills that I am hoping for him to win at Spa! 

 Schumacher backed off:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/ferrari/6008646/Ferrrais-Michael-Schumacher-calls-off-Formula-One-comebac...