Crown

trip:

So the GT1 is dead as far as Turbo's are concerned?! This is a sad day.

RIP to the GT1 block!

There is no going to be no RIP for my engine

now that the F458 is announced, how would the 997.2 TT compare against the Ferrari?

would a Stage 2  997.2 TT be faster than F458?

combo3010:

now that the F458 is announced, how would the 997.2 TT compare against the Ferrari?

would a Stage 2  997.2 TT be faster than F458?

NO. 458 is a true masterpiece. I cancelled my R8 V10 order and decided to get 458 and wait it as long as needed.

458 Italia is at least 10s faster on the Ring then Scud, so go figure...

997.2 Turbo PDK will be great car. Just as I predicted 458 Italia is a class leader for at least next five years...

KresoF1:

combo3010:

now that the F458 is announced, how would the 997.2 TT compare against the Ferrari?

would a Stage 2  997.2 TT be faster than F458?

NO. 458 is a true masterpiece. I cancelled my R8 V10 order and decided to get 458 and wait it as long as needed.

458 Italia is at least 10s faster on the Ring then Scud, so go figure...

997.2 Turbo PDK will be great car. Just as I predicted 458 Italia is a class leader for at least next five years...

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

KresoF1:

I cancelled my R8 V10 order and decided to get 458 and wait it as long as needed.

Good decision, Kreso! 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

blueflame:

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

I expect the Porsche to be faster and more usable than the Ferrari.

Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less. Difference between on-paper spec and on-road performance.

But perhaps 458 Italia will change all that, although I doubt it. Like we say, "when you hear about too many oranges take a small basket". We shall see.

Having said that, IMO the new 458 Italia is a fantastico desirable object (as opposed to automobile)  to have, if you can easily afford it! I would have bought one for my garden parking spot  if I had money to spare.

KresoF1:

combo3010:

now that the F458 is announced, how would the 997.2 TT compare against the Ferrari?

would a Stage 2  997.2 TT be faster than F458?

NO. 458 is a true masterpiece. I cancelled my R8 V10 order and decided to get 458 and wait it as long as needed.

458 Italia is at least 10s faster on the Ring then Scud, so go figure...

997.2 Turbo PDK will be great car. Just as I predicted 458 Italia is a class leader for at least next five years...

Ferrari has done it again. Kreso's change of heart should tell you all. So faster than GT2?

reginos:

blueflame:

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

I expect the Porsche to be faster and more usable than the Ferrari.

Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less. Difference between on-paper spec and on-road performance.

But perhaps 458 Italia will change all that, although I doubt it. Like we say, "when you hear about too many oranges take a small basket". We shall see.

Having said that, IMO the new 458 Italia is a fantastico desirable object (as opposed to automobile)  to have, if you can easily afford it! I would have bought one for my garden parking spot  if I had money to spare.

 

To highlight my point of Porsches= substance, Ferraris=show (good looking show though).

I was looking at Sport Auto today and the Ferrari California Test. Hochenheim: 1.13,5 mins.

Porsche 997.2 S PDK 1.13,4 mins. (test 08/08)

Porsche less cylinders,less engine size, less consumption,less maintenance costs, less hype, show and fuss, (much) less Euros to purchase but same result. That's why it's my type of car

I can bet anyone that the 997.2 Turbo PDK will be faster than the 458 Italia.
--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

KresoF1:

 I cancelled my R8 V10 order and decided to get 458 and wait it as long as needed.

Congratulations!  I would do the same thing if I could.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello.  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2

what's the curb weight of the PDK turbo?

reginos:

reginos:

blueflame:

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

I expect the Porsche to be faster and more usable than the Ferrari.

Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less. Difference between on-paper spec and on-road performance.

But perhaps 458 Italia will change all that, although I doubt it. Like we say, "when you hear about too many oranges take a small basket". We shall see.

Having said that, IMO the new 458 Italia is a fantastico desirable object (as opposed to automobile)  to have, if you can easily afford it! I would have bought one for my garden parking spot  if I had money to spare.

 

To highlight my point of Porsches= substance, Ferraris=show (good looking show though).

I was looking at Sport Auto today and the Ferrari California Test. Hochenheim: 1.13,5 mins.

Porsche 997.2 S PDK 1.13,4 mins. (test 08/08)

Porsche less cylinders,less engine size, less consumption,less maintenance costs, less hype, show and fuss, (much) less Euros to purchase but same result. That's why it's my type of car

I can bet anyone that the 997.2 Turbo PDK will be faster than the 458 Italia.

 California = solid roof convertible.

How much slower the 997.2 cab is than the coupe?

reginos:

reginos:

blueflame:

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

I expect the Porsche to be faster and more usable than the Ferrari.

Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less. Difference between on-paper spec and on-road performance.

But perhaps 458 Italia will change all that, although I doubt it. Like we say, "when you hear about too many oranges take a small basket". We shall see.

Having said that, IMO the new 458 Italia is a fantastico desirable object (as opposed to automobile)  to have, if you can easily afford it! I would have bought one for my garden parking spot  if I had money to spare.

 

To highlight my point of Porsches= substance, Ferraris=show (good looking show though).

I was looking at Sport Auto today and the Ferrari California Test. Hochenheim: 1.13,5 mins.

Porsche 997.2 S PDK 1.13,4 mins. (test 08/08)

Porsche less cylinders,less engine size, less consumption,less maintenance costs, less hype, show and fuss, (much) less Euros to purchase but same result. That's why it's my type of car

I can bet anyone that the 997.2 Turbo PDK will be faster than the 458 Italia.

THATS EXACLTY WHAT I THINK!!  PORSCHE WILL DO IT PART!
 

SciFrog:

 California = solid roof convertible.

How much slower the 997.2 cab is than the coupe?

 

The convertible versions are rarely tested in performance magazines like the Sport Auto. They consider that the closed version always has the performance edge.

But even if the 997.2 cab was a little slower than the Coupe, this doesn't take away my point about Ferrari.  Ferrari are looked at by some people as the "holy grail" of the automotive world, whereas viewed in cold figures their on-road performance is nothing spectacular compared to Porsches (and other excellent brands, for that matter). My conclusion: Ferraris are less than the sum of their parts, Porsches are much more.

If you also take price, cost of ownership and every day usability into the equation, then clearly there is no contest.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

xandi911:

reginos:

reginos:

blueflame:

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

I expect the Porsche to be faster and more usable than the Ferrari.

Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less. Difference between on-paper spec and on-road performance.

But perhaps 458 Italia will change all that, although I doubt it. Like we say, "when you hear about too many oranges take a small basket". We shall see.

Having said that, IMO the new 458 Italia is a fantastico desirable object (as opposed to automobile)  to have, if you can easily afford it! I would have bought one for my garden parking spot  if I had money to spare.

 

To highlight my point of Porsches= substance, Ferraris=show (good looking show though).

I was looking at Sport Auto today and the Ferrari California Test. Hochenheim: 1.13,5 mins.

Porsche 997.2 S PDK 1.13,4 mins. (test 08/08)

Porsche less cylinders,less engine size, less consumption,less maintenance costs, less hype, show and fuss, (much) less Euros to purchase but same result. That's why it's my type of car

I can bet anyone that the 997.2 Turbo PDK will be faster than the 458 Italia.

Are you serious? Again. really serious?

Soon you will know the truth-Ferrari 458 Italia is simply in different league IMHO... And I will get 997.2 Turbo PDK as well... 

KresoF1:

Are you serious? Again. really serious?

Soon you will know the truth-Ferrari 458 Italia is simply in different league IMHO... And I will get 997.2 Turbo PDK as well... 

 

I am very serious on the basis of the past record of the two marques.

Perhaps, 458 Italia will change what we have known until now, although I would be surprised if that happens.

This doesn't mean I don't consider  the new Ferrari as a jewel. If you can get both, go ahead by all means

Kreso,

why did you go for the 997.2 Turbo instead of the R8 V10?

• 997.2 turbo better as daily driver since you have the 458 Italia as week-end toy?
• 997.2 Turbo rear-engined which will better complement the mid-engined 458 Italia?
• 997.2 turbo simply better car than R8 V10?
• 997.2 turbo expected to be significantly cheaper than R8 V10 with the options you would chose for both?

looks like Kreso is changing mind faster than the PDK changes gear... 

7:29 for the 458 ? what was the time again for the GT-R ? 7:26 ?  

could not resist...

458 coupe

997.2 TT cab

best of both worlds...

SciFrog:

458 coupe

997.2 TT cab

 

best of both worlds...

Maybe the truth, but Turbo Coupé does look better than the Turbo cab.

(sorry STRADALE )
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Rossi:

SciFrog:

458 coupe

997.2 TT cab

 

best of both worlds...

Maybe the truth, but Turbo Coupé does look better than the Turbo cab.

(sorry STRADALE )
 

IMO all coupes look better than the corresponding cabs. The only open cars worth considering in the looks department are the  two seaters, i.e. roadsters or spyders . The rest (4-seaters or 2+2) when open look more like speed-boats than cars.

KresoF1:

xandi911:

reginos:

reginos:

blueflame:

That would be a Ring-Time of 7.29m for the F458 - impressing!

I am looking forward to the 997.2 TT answer from Porsche...

Blueflame

I expect the Porsche to be faster and more usable than the Ferrari.

Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less. Difference between on-paper spec and on-road performance.

But perhaps 458 Italia will change all that, although I doubt it. Like we say, "when you hear about too many oranges take a small basket". We shall see.

Having said that, IMO the new 458 Italia is a fantastico desirable object (as opposed to automobile)  to have, if you can easily afford it! I would have bought one for my garden parking spot  if I had money to spare.

 

To highlight my point of Porsches= substance, Ferraris=show (good looking show though).

I was looking at Sport Auto today and the Ferrari California Test. Hochenheim: 1.13,5 mins.

Porsche 997.2 S PDK 1.13,4 mins. (test 08/08)

Porsche less cylinders,less engine size, less consumption,less maintenance costs, less hype, show and fuss, (much) less Euros to purchase but same result. That's why it's my type of car

I can bet anyone that the 997.2 Turbo PDK will be faster than the 458 Italia.

Are you serious? Again. really serious?

Soon you will know the truth-Ferrari 458 Italia is simply in different league IMHO... And I will get 997.2 Turbo PDK as well... 

 

reginos: "Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less."

IMHO it's actually the other way around. Have LOVED my 911's but......... You cant explain to someone that hasnt owned a modern Ferrari what the intangibles are like, how much more the car is then just a sum of it's parts.

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

Rossi:

SciFrog:

458 coupe

997.2 TT cab

 

best of both worlds...

Maybe the truth, but Turbo Coupé does look better than the Turbo cab.

(sorry STRADALE )
 

It's okay, I agree. With TOP UP at least.

Top Down it's opposite IMHO.

But I'm w/ SciFrog, if you're going to own  BOTH the car to have as a coupe would be the Ferrari 458, and the car to own in cab = the Turbo. 
--

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

SciFrog:

458 coupe

997.2 TT cab

 

best of both worlds...

ditto!

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

reginos: "Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less."

IMHO it's actually the other way around. Have LOVED my 911's but......... You cant explain to someone that hasnt owned a modern Ferrari what the intangibles are like, how much more the car is then just a sum of it's parts.

You might be right about the intangibles, things like the legend and the associations others make when they see someone in Ferrari as well as the "exotic" looks and the rarity of the brand.

I was referring more to the relative engineering and performance of the two marques. If you see their relative specifications on paper the Ferrari looks like miles ahead but on the road and track it is only close to the more humble car.

reginos:

STRADALE:

reginos: "Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less."

IMHO it's actually the other way around. Have LOVED my 911's but......... You cant explain to someone that hasnt owned a modern Ferrari what the intangibles are like, how much more the car is then just a sum of it's parts.

You might be right about the intangibles, things like the legend and the associations others make when they see someone in Ferrari as well as the "exotic" looks and the rarity of the brand.

I was referring more to the relative engineering and performance of the two marques. If you see their relative specifications on paper the Ferrari looks like miles ahead but on the road and track it is only close to the more humble car.

That's not the intangibles I was referring to but agree those are worth something too. I was referring to the driving sensations,,,,,, the sounds of the engine & exhaust, the smell of the leather and interior quality. The beauty of the design.  The overall balance & feel of the car on the open highway, response in the higher rev,s,, how the Ferrari first starts to get it's legs once really pushed & turns into a different animal on the open highway. When pushed how everything about the car's engineering seems to comes together with a preordained purpose......The things you cant capture on spec sheets or performance logs.  The things that make it "more then the sum of it's parts".
--

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

reginos:

STRADALE:

reginos: "Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less."

IMHO it's actually the other way around. Have LOVED my 911's but......... You cant explain to someone that hasnt owned a modern Ferrari what the intangibles are like, how much more the car is then just a sum of it's parts.

You might be right about the intangibles, things like the legend and the associations others make when they see someone in Ferrari as well as the "exotic" looks and the rarity of the brand.

I was referring more to the relative engineering and performance of the two marques. If you see their relative specifications on paper the Ferrari looks like miles ahead but on the road and track it is only close to the more humble car.

 

That's not the intangibles I was referring to but agree those are worth something too. I was referring to the driving sensations,,,,,, the sounds of the engine & exhaust, the smell of the leather and interior quality. The beauty of the design.  The overall balance & feel of the car on the open highway, response in the higher rev,s,, how the Ferrari first starts to get it's legs once really pushed & turns into a different animal on the open highway. When pushed how everything about the car's engineering seems to comes together with a preordained purpose......The things you cant capture on spec sheets or performance logs.  The things that make it "more then the sum of it's parts".
--

I suppose then this is your type of car since you place priorities on the "intangibles" as above (which are not unique to Ferrari anyway). Others look for other attributes too.

No wrongs or rights, enjoy  what you like

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

After Selling My 06 911S Cab w/ X51 and cancelling my deposit on a 2010 997.2Turbo in favor of a 430F1 Spider I now own, I must agree with Stradale.. There is no driving sensation comparable to a modern Ferrari ....period.

07 F430 F1 Spider 06 C2SCab,Triple Black X51 (gone but not forgotten)

08 Lexus ISF Ultrasonic Blue

08 LR2

reginos:

STRADALE:

reginos:

STRADALE:

reginos: "Porsches have always been more than the sum of their parts and Ferraris traditionally less."

IMHO it's actually the other way around. Have LOVED my 911's but......... You cant explain to someone that hasnt owned a modern Ferrari what the intangibles are like, how much more the car is then just a sum of it's parts.

You might be right about the intangibles, things like the legend and the associations others make when they see someone in Ferrari as well as the "exotic" looks and the rarity of the brand.

I was referring more to the relative engineering and performance of the two marques. If you see their relative specifications on paper the Ferrari looks like miles ahead but on the road and track it is only close to the more humble car.

 

That's not the intangibles I was referring to but agree those are worth something too. I was referring to the driving sensations,,,,,, the sounds of the engine & exhaust, the smell of the leather and interior quality. The beauty of the design.  The overall balance & feel of the car on the open highway, response in the higher rev,s,, how the Ferrari first starts to get it's legs once really pushed & turns into a different animal on the open highway. When pushed how everything about the car's engineering seems to comes together with a preordained purpose......The things you cant capture on spec sheets or performance logs.  The things that make it "more then the sum of it's parts".
--

I suppose then this is your type of car since you place priorities on the "intangibles" as above (which are not unique to Ferrari anyway). Others look for other attributes too.

 No wrongs or rights, enjoy  what you like

What I said had nothing to do with "priorities". I never said those were "priorities"....... 

I mentioned those intangibles because  when you talk about cars (911 Turbo's/8 cyl F-cars) being "more than the sum of their parts", being more than what you see on a spec sheet or performance chart that's EXACTLY what intangibles are all about. My opinion after owning numerous Ferrari's & Porsche's is actually the opposite of yours, and I'm not biased just being honest. There's plenty of times where I take the side of Porsche over Ferrari, there's many things I like much more about my 997 vs the 430  but again when it comes to being "more than the sum of it's parts" that is the epitome of Ferrari!............. I think it's something that really has to be experienced as a owner to be understood... And I'd bet most people with both 911's & 8 cyl F-cars right now probably feel the same way.............. But I agree with you about there not being a wrong or right.

 
--

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

STRADALE:

 

What I said had nothing to do with "priorities". I never said those were "priorities"....... 

I mentioned those intangibles because  when you talk about cars (911 Turbo's/8 cyl F-cars) being "more than the sum of their parts", being more than what you see on a spec sheet or performance chart that's EXACTLY what intangibles are all about. My opinion after owning numerous Ferrari's & Porsche's is actually the opposite of yours, and I'm not biased just being honest. There's plenty of times where I take the side of Porsche over Ferrari, there's many things I like much more about my 997 vs the 430  but again when it comes to being "more than the sum of it's parts" that is the epitome of Ferrari!............. I think it's something that really has to be experienced as a owner to be understood... And I'd bet most people with both 911's & 8 cyl F-cars right now probably feel the same way.............. But I agree with you about there not being a wrong or right.

 

STRADALE, I understand and appreciate your points about the passion and excitement the Ferrari generates and the sensuous pleasure of owning and driving these machines.

However, if someone's priority is for a very fast, robust and reliable charismatic sportscar that this person can use whenever he wants and even daily, whatever the weather or the road conditions,do high mileage and without breaking the bank in the process, then there is only one machine, Porsche.

Some lucky people like you can have both (and God bless you) so the dilemma is non-existent but most of us have to make choices depending on our priorities. That was the point I tried to make about priorities.

As regards the "more than the sum of its parts" debate, I looked at it in a different way: Ferraris are exotic supercars with all that this entails. However, humble Porsches (just well engineered and well made sportscars on the fringes of mainstream) can equal and sometimes exceed Ferrari's on-road and on-track performance without any of the fanfares the fuss and the hype associated with the legendary "cavallino".

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts