Crown

ADias:

That may very well happen in the upcoming 991 but... it will no longer be a 911. It will be a 911 look-alike. If that happens the 911 is dead and the current model will be the last 911 for many Porsche fans.

 

There is reason to argue the same point with the current 996/997 platform. Some (myself included) may say the 911 ended with the 993, even though the 997 shares some likeness the original 911. That said, whatever is considered the 997's pedigree wouldn't stop me from buying one if that's the car I wanted.

--
2008 Boxster S

JimFlat6:

There is no doubt that Piech is probably more passionate about cars, speed and motorsports than any other man in the industry.

 

 Agreed. If the concern is that VW may dilute the Porsche badge in the name of profit, then WW already has done that.

 

 

 

 

 

nberry:

Where in the hell have you been? Missed your input. You're our American version of Fritz.

Oh my God!

I don't think that I like that comparison.

Could anyone recommend another good Porsche forum I could join?   

fritz

nberry:

Where in the hell have you been? Missed your input.

No kidding.  I almost forgot about JimFlat6, good to see you back.

I believe if anything this take over is a fortunate thing for Porsche .  Gradually phase out Panamera and Cayenne and stick to true Sports cars.

Had the original deal went through, VAG would have been integrated into Porsche with minimal impact, at most Audi would need to scale back and that's all.

The same thing cannot be said integrating Porsche into VAG, Audi would have been the main obstruction, all of Porsche's product overlap with Audi's, I do not see Piech scaling back his baby to accommodate Porsche, even if Audi would still have a strong product mix even scaling back.

Porsche may have a strong racing heritage, but Audi had been pretty successful in racing lately, I don't see VAG financing 2 full blown factory racing effort, care to guess which brand Piech pick?

Cayenne share platform with Toureg and Q7, but on prices the products do overlap, and I see Piech letting Porsche keep the top end Cayennes while conceding the lower price level to Q7 and Toureg.

Cayman/Boxster is in the same segment as Audi TT, A5, competing for the same customers, do one seriously think Piech would let Porsche keep them and take away Audi's potential customers? Piech might transform it using the TT or A4 platform on next cycle.

Panamera is brand new, but it goes head to head against Audi A8/S8, Bentley 4-door Continental, I do not see Piech letting Porsche keep the Panamera after one cycle, it might reborn on the next Phaeton/A8 platform if it can exist after one cycle, but it would have been 50% less car than what it is now at best.

911 is Porsche's bread and butter and icon, but it's in the same segment as R8, Gallardo and Bentley Continental GT, does it really have a bright future under VAG? Piech is obsessed with platform and parts sharing, and 911 is the odd man out with sharing stuff, do one really want to see lesser VAG general parts bin stuff in a 911?

Just a rough count, Porsche's annual production would have been at what 1/3 of what it is now, with a reduced revenue, it would have less money to develop new products, or even go racing at all, it will be just another parasite brand under VAG, like Bugatti. Piech is not going to pump extra money into Porsche, he never like the brand in the first place.

You guys are just wishful thinking Piech the good engineer that he once was is good for Porsche, but he is also the same one who shaped Audi into a Porsche fighter, he is definitely going to trim Porsche to fit within VAG.

Whoopsy:

Had the original deal went through, VAG would have been integrated into Porsche with minimal impact, at most Audi would need to scale back and that's all.

The same thing cannot be said integrating Porsche into VAG, Audi would have been the main obstruction, all of Porsche's product overlap with Audi's, I do not see Piech scaling back his baby to accommodate Porsche, even if Audi would still have a strong product mix even scaling back.

Porsche may have a strong racing heritage, but Audi had been pretty successful in racing lately, I don't see VAG financing 2 full blown factory racing effort, care to guess which brand Piech pick?

Cayenne share platform with Toureg and Q7, but on prices the products do overlap, and I see Piech letting Porsche keep the top end Cayennes while conceding the lower price level to Q7 and Toureg.

Cayman/Boxster is in the same segment as Audi TT, A5, competing for the same customers, do one seriously think Piech would let Porsche keep them and take away Audi's potential customers? Piech might transform it using the TT or A4 platform on next cycle.

Panamera is brand new, but it goes head to head against Audi A8/S8, Bentley 4-door Continental, I do not see Piech letting Porsche keep the Panamera after one cycle, it might reborn on the next Phaeton/A8 platform if it can exist after one cycle, but it would have been 50% less car than what it is now at best.

911 is Porsche's bread and butter and icon, but it's in the same segment as R8, Gallardo and Bentley Continental GT, does it really have a bright future under VAG? Piech is obsessed with platform and parts sharing, and 911 is the odd man out with sharing stuff, do one really want to see lesser VAG general parts bin stuff in a 911?

Just a rough count, Porsche's annual production would have been at what 1/3 of what it is now, with a reduced revenue, it would have less money to develop new products, or even go racing at all, it will be just another parasite brand under VAG, like Bugatti. Piech is not going to pump extra money into Porsche, he never like the brand in the first place.

 

You guys are just wishful thinking Piech the good engineer that he once was is good for Porsche, but he is also the same one who shaped Audi into a Porsche fighter, he is definitely going to trim Porsche to fit within VAG.

 

Whoopsy, your product rationalization exercise above follows a certain logic. However, VW will spend money to save Porsche and I don't think they will have any incentive to waste the Porsche brand. They are not naive at all and they realise the power of the brand not only in the traditional markets but also in the "new rich" markets.

IMO, Porsche couldn't have been degraded more (in spite of recognising the progress in quality and production methods) than under the WW-Haerter "casino management" regime. Things can only get better in future. Porsche will again become a product and engineering driven company rather than a (ultimately unsuccessful) financial institution.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Whoopsy:

Had the original deal went through, VAG would have been integrated into Porsche with minimal impact, at most Audi would need to scale back and that's all.

The same thing cannot be said integrating Porsche into VAG, Audi would have been the main obstruction, all of Porsche's product overlap with Audi's, I do not see Piech scaling back his baby to accommodate Porsche, even if Audi would still have a strong product mix even scaling back.

Porsche may have a strong racing heritage, but Audi had been pretty successful in racing lately, I don't see VAG financing 2 full blown factory racing effort, care to guess which brand Piech pick?

Cayenne share platform with Toureg and Q7, but on prices the products do overlap, and I see Piech letting Porsche keep the top end Cayennes while conceding the lower price level to Q7 and Toureg.

Cayman/Boxster is in the same segment as Audi TT, A5, competing for the same customers, do one seriously think Piech would let Porsche keep them and take away Audi's potential customers? Piech might transform it using the TT or A4 platform on next cycle.

Panamera is brand new, but it goes head to head against Audi A8/S8, Bentley 4-door Continental, I do not see Piech letting Porsche keep the Panamera after one cycle, it might reborn on the next Phaeton/A8 platform if it can exist after one cycle, but it would have been 50% less car than what it is now at best.

911 is Porsche's bread and butter and icon, but it's in the same segment as R8, Gallardo and Bentley Continental GT, does it really have a bright future under VAG? Piech is obsessed with platform and parts sharing, and 911 is the odd man out with sharing stuff, do one really want to see lesser VAG general parts bin stuff in a 911?

Just a rough count, Porsche's annual production would have been at what 1/3 of what it is now, with a reduced revenue, it would have less money to develop new products, or even go racing at all, it will be just another parasite brand under VAG, like Bugatti. Piech is not going to pump extra money into Porsche, he never like the brand in the first place.

You guys are just wishful thinking Piech the good engineer that he once was is good for Porsche, but he is also the same one who shaped Audi into a Porsche fighter, he is definitely going to trim Porsche to fit within VAG.

Audi and Porsche barely overlap, and if that were a problem for VAG then Audi wouldn't even have a Q7 because it overlaps with the Tuareg, wouldn't have a A4 because it overlaps the Passat, and so on with almost every Audi model, same with Seat and VW on the lower scale, thats overlap, VW-Audi-Seat... yet they belong to that very same group and have been for years and offer very similar cars with no conflict. Why would it affect then Porsche's model line which is significantly more different and comparatively very profitable as it is. And with its closest model to VW, the Cayenne, VW even collaborated with Porsche to develop the Tuareg/Cayenne and takes part in it production with its plants, because its profitable for both, and now even more so.

Piech never liked the Porsche brand? were did you get that info. Porsche is precisely the type of brand he likes. I only wish he places half of the money he put into the past dead Bugatti (Veyron development enterprise) and thats with the knowledge that he would not get a return of the investment, he did it because he wanted to build such a sportcar, thats Piech, you think WW would of done that in his place? WW would of cut Bugatti into bits and sold them for whatever profit. And look at Lambo after VAG took over, before, the infamous Diablo and on the verge of backrupcy... now the Galardo and Murc and Lambo right up there with Porsche and Ferrari.

reginos:

Turbo Al:

 

2.  Boxster-no Cayman.

Why no Cayman? With very little marginal cost Porsche have introduced another line, that is helping sales. According to worldwide sales figures the Cayman is not behind Boxster.

There are people who want an affordable mid-engined sports car but don't like convertible tops. Why not cater for them?

Also the FL Cayman S is an attractive car and a great drive.

Why not drop the name 'Cayman', which has already been 'Gay-manised' anyway, and just have Boxster Coupe and Boxster Cabriolet.

I've always considered the Cayman to be a Boxster with a hard top, but with the price structures the wrong way round!

"Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

Whoopsy:

This is the end of Porsche as we know it, Piech will not let Porsche the company flourish, I see him just letting Porsche sit in the corner and get fed AFTER Audi Lambo Seat VW etc.

 

I have to say sadly I think I just bought my last Porsche ever, Piech is going to ruin Porsche's brand, name, reputation and quality. At least the 997TT is the gold standard for all-weather, all-year driving supercar, and I am grateful that I own one.

 

This post has a lot of people commenting along the same lines as you and saying that their current Porsche is possibly their last one due to the VW takeover.

I am surprised by the extreme negativity of these reactions only moments after the fact. No-one really knows what direction VW might steer Porsche in. I agree that any change is a possible cause for worry, and certainly a change as big as this. But I just think it's way too early to bury Porsche.

If there's one thing the current VW management has shown in recent years is that they are not stupid. I cannot believe that family feuds and personal vendettas would lead them to kill off the money-making machine that Porsche has been these past few years. And Lamborghini, arguably an even more passion-driven luxury sports brand than Porsche, has thrived under Audi management.

So why not look at this with a bit more optimism? Who knows, this may be the beginning of a great new era for Porsche...

997.1 cab C2S tip

elsiesvg:

So why not look at this with a bit more optimism? Who knows, this may be the beginning of a great new era for Porsche...

 You're right, we should judge Porsche by the cars they make and their price, not by their politics.

Eunice:

elsiesvg:

So why not look at this with a bit more optimism? Who knows, this may be the beginning of a great new era for Porsche...

 You're right, we should judge Porsche by the cars they make and their price, not by their politics.

I wonder how much time WW devoted to cars since 2005 when the VW affair started. Very little I suppose,  when he was free from worries about shares, options, takeover schemes and VW law politics

At least within VW there will be stabilty and all Porsche employees and management will concentrate on automobiles and technology.

I am not sure people understand what has happened here. Porsche is now under the control of a large automotive company with overlapping and competing products. Internally there will be fighting over allocation of resources including money and staff. Something Porsche staff has never had to contend with. In addition, there still is the matter of Porsche 9B debt which needs to be addressed.

Make no mistake; Porsche would have been substantially better off if they had taken over VW. That said, VW is not going to intentionally tarnish the Porsche brand but there will have to be compromises and in the end the Porsche brand will take a hit.

nberry:

Make no mistake; Porsche would have been substantially better off if they had taken over VW. That said, VW is not going to intentionally tarnish the Porsche brand but there will have to be compromises and in the end the Porsche brand will take a hit.

 

What you say might be true under ideal conditions for Porsche. That is, a cash rich/debt free Porsche SE able to own 100% of Porsche AG and 75% of VW Group. This was the unattainable dream of WW (and perhaps others too) that at no point had a chance of success.

However, given the present day realities, Porsche under the VW umbrella is the best option. Even if compromises will have to be made these will not affect sportscars but perhaps other projects. The sportscars will remain pure because Porsche is the only German sportscar brand and the new owners cannot afford to spoil that.

Having said the above, I  doubt very much whether Porsche would have been able to stay independent for too long even without the VW takeover disaster. Technology requirements as well as emission and consumption legislation would have soon taken their toll on a small manufacturer like Porsche.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

I would add that recent history has shown Porsche behaving in a way that is very far removed from a niche sports car manufacturer. Yet during the time it was making more money from dealing in VW shares than making cars, or building ugly 4x4s, it was also coming up with the best sports cars it has ever produced (IMO anyway).

I think the 997 is the pinnacle of Porsche production. And look at how good the 987 has become in both coupé and cabrio form...

So maybe things are about to get better still...

But in any case, the next generation of Porsche products (998, Carrera GT replacement...) already being in advanced stages of development, I doubt we'll see the full impact of the VW takeover for a few years yet.

997.1 cab C2S tip

elsiesvg:

So maybe things are about to get better still...

But in any case, the next generation of Porsche products (998, Carrera GT replacement...) already being in advanced stages of development, I doubt we'll see the full impact of the VW takeover for a few years yet.

I agree, if anything this take over is to Porsche's advantage to get back to building true sports cars with no stop watch on the dash .

Eventually VW has to drop Cayenne and Panamera.  VW doesn't need to have so many different SUVs and Sedans VW and AUDI are good enough.  For that matter you don't need to be GM #2 having the same SUVs and Sedans with different badges.

Ron (Houston):

.. to get back to building true sports cars with no stop watch on the dash .

Obviously, all of this is speculation on our part. But, for sports cars, as Henry Ford II said - "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday."

Porsche has been competitive in racing, except for Formula One, granted that they have carefully targeted where they could win in recent years (LeMans GT2, RS Spyder), not going for LMP1.

Now, all that is very much in doubt as part of VAG.

Just my $0.01 (USD)...

Carlos from Spain:

Audi and Porsche barely overlap, and if that were a problem for VAG then Audi wouldn't even have a Q7 because it overlaps with the Tuareg, wouldn't have a A4 because it overlaps the Passat, and so on with almost every Audi model, same with Seat and VW on the lower scale, thats overlap, VW-Audi-Seat... yet they belong to that very same group and have been for years and offer very similar cars with no conflict. Why would it affect then Porsche's model line which is significantly more different and comparatively very profitable as it is. And with its closest model to VW, the Cayenne, VW even collaborated with Porsche to develop the Tuareg/Cayenne and takes part in it production with its plants, because its profitable for both, and now even more so.

Piech never liked the Porsche brand? were did you get that info. Porsche is precisely the type of brand he likes. I only wish he places half of the money he put into the past dead Bugatti (Veyron development enterprise) and thats with the knowledge that he would not get a return of the investment, he did it because he wanted to build such a sportcar, thats Piech, you think WW would of done that in his place? WW would of cut Bugatti into bits and sold them for whatever profit. And look at Lambo after VAG took over, before, the infamous Diablo and on the verge of backrupcy... now the Galardo and Murc and Lambo right up there with Porsche and Ferrari.

If Piech really like Porsche, he would have never left the company. It's well know fact that he does not get along with the Porsche family, so why would he do something to help the Porsche brand? He has shares in Porsche but the fact is he is rich enough that those don't really matters, he has already made his from VAG.

VAG has been sharing platform a la GM for ages, it's no secret that Porsche will eventually take on parts from the general VAG parts bin. If you guys had a problem before with 996 sharing parts with Boxster, a car within the Porsche company, how would you guys feel when the next 911 or whatever sharing parts from lesser VWs? Cayenne had always getting the knock because of it's close similiarities with the Toureg, I remembered the complaint was the Cayenne was nothing more than a rebadged Toureg.The Q7 at least differs from the other 2 cousins by offering 7 seats.

Murcielago was a Lambo product before Audi took over, Audi really had no part in it other than making sure it was build to German quality. Gallardo was the first fruit from the Audi marriage, one of the initial complaints was the inside was full of Audi switch gear, but Lambo needs those because the German parts works better than the Italian stuff.

Porsche parts are just as reliable as the Audi stuff if not better, but I see VAG installing those Audi switch gears inside Porsche just because they can do more 'parts sharing'. Imagine sitting in a Audi, a Lambo and a Porsche and see the same switch gears, the brands have lost there uniqueness.

As I have said, Audi has such a big portfolio from cheap to super expensive that even if they concede the product price points to Porsche's products, it will still have enough to be competitive and successful, but the same thing does not happen to Porsche, apart from the GT2, there is an Audi in the same price bracket as every single Prosche product. Piech had positioned Audi as the sporty racing brand, exactly the same thing as Porsche, it may not have the heritage yet, but it's getting there with all the racing success lately. Why would Piech sacrifice his carefully nurtured Audi brand to accommodate Porsche into his house? Porsche will need to find it's own bedroom within the house and it's not going to get much help.

I have an ignorant question. At some point I thought there was a gentlemen's agreement that German automobile manufacturers would limit the speed of their cars to something like 250 kph, and I was under the impression that BMW's and Mercedes are still sold with some kind of governer that limits them to 155 mph. As far as I know, Porsche was the only German auto company not to abide by this regulation. Is this true? or am I nuts?

RSA333:

I have an ignorant question. At some point I thought there was a gentlemen's agreement that German automobile manufacturers would limit the speed of their cars to something like 250 kph, and I was under the impression that BMW's and Mercedes are still sold with some kind of governer that limits them to 155 mph. As far as I know, Porsche was the only German auto company not to abide by this regulation. Is this true? or am I nuts?

The agreement is between mainstream brands. But even M-B AMGs and I think BMW M-series de-limit their cars on request.  Also the R8 is not limited, not sure about RS models.

So, it is an agreement defined by exceptions.

I think the agreement was meant to apply to sedans and large coupes, but not sportscars.

Grant:

 

I think the agreement was meant to apply to sedans and large coupes, but not sportscars.

Who makes sportscars other than Porsche, you might ask?

But cars like Mercedes SLs incl. the SL63, and BMW M6 are all limited.

Grant:

 

I think the agreement was meant to apply to sedans and large coupes, but not sportscars.

It was a voluntary agreement signed up to by the manufacturers concerned at a time when their fastest cars barely cleared that speed anyway, and some politicians were pushing for an Autobahn speed limit .

Porsche already had the 911 Turbo in production, so did not sign up to it.

It may sound cynical, but they were all standing up for their own best interests as they saw them then.

fritz

It's also interesting that the Cayenne and Panamera (especially Turbo versions) never had limiters either...

Is VW becoming the GM of the car world? Too many models, too many dealers, too many overlapping products and not enough buyers?

I have not followed the entire affair but had Porsche not gone after VW, would VW gone after Porsche and if so what business purpose? it seems to me if we know the answer to the latter question, we will know what VW's intentions are regarding Porsche. 

Grant:

It's also interesting that the Cayenne and Panamera (especially Turbo versions) never had limiters either...

Back then when Mercedes / BMW / Audi arrived at their gentlemen's agreement (no sarcasm intended), no one dreamt of trucks being capable of 250 km/h.

fritz

nberry:

Is VW becoming the GM of the car world? Too many models, too many dealers, too many overlapping products and not enough buyers?

I have not followed the entire affair but had Porsche not gone after VW, would VW gone after Porsche and if so what business purpose? it seems to me if we know the answer to the latter question, we will know what VW's intentions are regarding Porsche. 

Initially, Porsche did not "go after" VW.
Financially-flush Porsche bought VW stock when the price was very low, around € 80, to protect VW from being picked up cheaply by affluent hedge funds or other "locusts", as they were then referred to. Piech was behind those moves then, because VW needed the protection. Porsche's primary interest was guarding its main source of supply for Cayenne parts.

I think the ambition to buy a voting majority in VW only arose in the minds of the people responsible when it suddenly became apparent just how easy it could be.

Due to a combination of Porsche's expressed interest and the fact that VW's product range was improving radically, the stock market woke up to VW and drove the stock price over € 200 at around the same time the world economy went south. These two factors made things much more difficult for Porsche in its attempt to buy out VW.

It looks like Piech took advantage of this opportunity to change horses in mid-stream, because he saw the rest of the Porsche clan and particulrly Wiedeking becoming too powerful at the expense of his own power at VW.

If the EU had been more consistent and the economy in general had not soured, Wiedeking would now be the hero of this story.

--

fritz

Now I understand.

Why did VW take over Porsche? 

In my oppinion, both companies are working together on all fronts from many, many years... The whole story for the two families is as old, as the world itself. Officialy Porsche was indipendent, but if you look closer, many years decision makers were people from these two families. Even now, nobody knows, who will "pay" all the taxes about this merger...

In short, Porsche and VW are the most important brands in this long story and nothing different from a routine financial operation isn't happening now.

So relax friends, and don't think that somebody is stupid enough to throw the most profitable car company in the recent years into the dust bin.

nberry:

Now I understand.

Why did VW take over Porsche? 

Piech's way of humiliating Wiedeking as punishment for developing more ambition than Piech had himself foreseen.

fritz