Crown

Carlos from Spain:

Orabidoo:

You have apperently never studied a data log from the Nordscheife (or any other track by the way). Do you really think that all drivers drive the same length??? The lap lenght of the Nordscheife (and every other track in the world) is mesured by taking the middle of the road. On the same lap, under the same circumstances, I have seen differences up to 300 meters on the Ring, depening on where the driver drives on the road.

Please, think a little before you post. At least when you're trying to make me a fool.

 

Are you for real?

Please, think. If I take the outside of a bend and you take the inside, who of us has driving shortest? You sound really illogical.

One more try before I regard you as an adolescent trying to troll a forum because that is what is seems right know.

There is a perpendicular line crossing the road marking a start and a finish, are you with me here? doesn't matter were on that line you cross because its ... wait for it... perpendicular! Unless you are an ant and you keep to the inside border of the track the whole entire track (I'm sure you know that cars follow basically the same line in a track) there is no realworld difference, unfortunately the NRing is not ten miles wide like it would be for an ant for it to matter in cars. Its simple geometry and the basis for lap timing in all sports and tracks around the world, or you think the different F1 cars lap different legths of track than each other and in different laps? if so, sell your "magic lap shortening secret" to an F1 team because a tenth of a second in F1 is worth milliions

--

The perfect driving line does change with the car. Imagine the difference between AWD/RWD/FWD.

Or compare the line of a car with less power/better handling to a car with more horsepower/less handling. 

Some of them would perform better on the longer and smoother outside route while others would be faster with a sharper bend and the shorter route.

MKSGR:

 BTW, it is now already verified by two GTR owners I know in person that the brakes show fading after very few laps (2-3 in HHR, 3-4 Leipzig) and that the gear-box temperature rises within 10 minutes or so (Leipzig track) to a temperature level which requires you to stop and cool down the car...

Markus, I hope your friends who have fun with their GT-Rs in Leipzig and Hockenheim have read the fineprint of the warranty  If you take the stipulation literally the warranty is voided even if you drive the car on your driveway (it's not a public road, isn't it ? ). Who cares what laptime is possible when the warranty is void once the customer tries to beat Suzuki-san's fab laptime ?

Nissan's entire marketing campaign is built on the "Ring killer" theme, but customers are not allowed to track their car without voiding the warranty - what a joke. It's like selling a building truck which can carry the biggest load but the warranty is void once the truck enters a construction site

I'm sure the GT-R is a very interesting package from a technological point of view and I'm sure it's a very fast car but this marketing campaign is just silly and will hurt Nissan's reputation in the long run (IMHO).

I'll try tomorrow how much meters I need to lap the 'Ring (actually never checked it)

Herstellergarantie

Bitte lesen Sie Ihr NISSAN GT-R Garantie- & Kundendienstscheckheft gewissenhaft durch. Die NISSAN GT-R Garantie bietet Ihnen eine umfangreiche Garantie-abdeckung, sofern das Fahrzeug unter Berücksichtigung der Hinweise und Informationen in der Bedienungsanleitung ordnungsgemäß gefahren und bedient worden ist.

Aber die Garantie schließt Garantieansprüche aus, wenn Schäden auf Renneinsätze oder Rennstreckenbenutzung zurückzuführen sind. Hierzu verweisen wir auch auf die Informationen in der Bedienungsanleitung und in dem Garantie- und Kunden-dienstscheckheft.

Die Garantiebedingungen beschreiben auch andere spezielle Fälle, Ausschlüsse und Begrenzungen. Nachfolgend einige Beispiele:

- Nichteinhaltung der Service- und Wartungsdienstvorschriften, wie in der NISSAN GT-R Bedienungsanleitung und dem Garantie- und Kundendienst-scheckheft beschrieben, oder aber auch Schäden die daraus resultieren, dass keine Original NISSAN Teile oder qualitativ äquivalent baugleiche Teile bzw. andere Schmierstoffe als von NISSAN vorgeschrieben oder empfohlen sind, verwendet wurden.

- Wenn es einen eindeutigen Nachweis dafür gibt, das bewusst das Datenauf-zeichnungsgerät abgeschaltet oder manipuliert worden ist oder Daten gelöscht worden sind.

- Schäden, die auf von Reparatur- oder Servicearbeiten in anderen Reparatur-werkstätten zurückzuführen sind. Sprich Reparatur- oder Servicearbeiten, die nicht ordnungsgemäß von einem anderen Reparaturbetrieb ausgeführt worden sind, der nicht den Status als NISSAN High Performance Center hat.

- Nichteinhaltung oder verspätete (Zeit oder Laufleistung) Durchführung der speziellen zusätzlichen NISSAN GT-R Inspektionen.

- Verwendung von NISSAN Original Teilen die nicht für den NISSAN GT-R bestimmt sind. Dies beinhaltet auch NISMO Teile, die nicht speziell für den NISSAN GT-R entwickelt und produziert worden sind oder alle Teile, welche keine NISSAN Original Teile sind.

- Das Fahren außerhalb von öffentlichen Straßen (z.B. auf einer Rennstrecke, einem stillgelegten Flughafen, Übungsplätzen usw.).

Fahren mit ausgeschaltetem ESP (Electronic Stability Programm)

Bitte stellen Sie vor Fahrtantritt sicher, dass das ESP eingeschaltet ist.
Die „ESP OFF“ Anzeige und der „ESP set up“ Schalter dürfen nicht leuchten.

Der NISSAN GT-R ist ein Hochleistungsfahrzeug. Um die maximalen Fahreigen-schaften auszuschöpfen und eine ordnungsgemäße Funktion des Antriebs zu gewährleisten, muss ESP aktiviert sein.

- Der „ESP OFF“ Modus sollte nur kurzzeitig verwendet werden, um das Fahrzeug aus Schlamm oder Schnee zu befreien. Das Fahren mit ausgeschaltetem ESP kann ernsthaften Schaden am Antrieb Ihres NISSAN GT-R verursachen.

- Ansonsten empfehlen wir, das ESP stets eingeschaltet zu lassen, da dies andernfalls zu einer Beeinträchtigung der Fahrstabilität (z.B. Lenkmanöver, Verhalten während der Beschleunigung und dem Abbremsen) sowie zu Schäden an den Antriebskomponenten (z.B. Getriebe, Kupplung usw.) führen kann. Diese Schäden sind von der Garantie nicht abgedeckt.
 

Eunice:

The perfect driving line does change with the car. Imagine the difference between AWD/RWD/FWD.

Or compare the line of a car with less power/better handling to a car with more horsepower/less handling. 

Some of them would perform better on the longer and smoother outside route while others would be faster with a sharper bend and the shorter route.

That is obvious but difference is negligeable with respect to the overall length of the lap driven from start to finish, or have you ever heard of a RWD having an advantage over a FWD because it shortens the lap length for example?

What matters is the overall speed the line allows you to carry, that is why you do not approach a corner from the inside and exit on the inside just because its a shorter path around the corner than coming in from the outside, cut the late apex and exit towards the outside using as much or the road as posible (unless its chained to another corner and you have to sacrifice the exit of the first corner in order to have a better line on the second corner and have the best exit speed for the straight after it), the latter line is the perfect line because even though its a longer path, it allows you to carry a lot of speed, and while a RWD favors a slightly differnt line that may be by chance a cm shorter in some part of the corner it looses that cm in another part of the corner to the FWD.

Is that indeed a copy of the GTR documents? If so, this sort of limits the use of the GTR 

WAY:
Porsche-jeck, why are you singling out Nissan voiding warranty upon tracking it? BMW does the same thing. Go read the handbooks. It specifically says your warranty is voided when you track the car. I'm talking the performance range of BMWs too, M3, M5, 135i etc. I recall Porsche does that in the US too?

 If the text quoted by Porsche-Jeck above is indeed an excerpt from the manual Nissan limits the use of the GTR to an extent that is not comparable at all to Porsche's warranty framework. In essence, any use of the GTR on a track voids the warranty. Switching off ESP does void the warranty as well  This is incredible 

Buterworth:

Several months ago,Porsche accused GTR of cheating on the Ring,and soon Nissan replied them.

And now ,we know that Porsche still keep silent after Nissan hit back Porsche's claim.

If Nissan is really cheating,Porsche must have enough evidance.They have a GTR,and they can test it anywhere,anytime,anyhow they want.I think Porsche know the GTR much better than us.

But Porsche havn't say a word a again. I don't know why.

 Because the Sport Auto 7.38 of the GT-R beats all current offerings from Porsche except the GT2. It is an achievement, even only for one lap.

Nissan built what they where shooting for, a one lap wonder Ring killer. Good marketing as 99% of GT-R owners will never go near a track anyway.

For serious amateur tracking, everyone will get a GT3 before a GT-R.

Porsche sales will be unaffected by the GT-R as they target different audiences (in the US, GT-R is for M3 owners ie <30 year old living at home). Only thing Porsche has to do is match the GT-R lap time with the 997.2 TT as they have done with the 997.2 GT3.

MKSGR:

WAY:
Porsche-jeck, why are you singling out Nissan voiding warranty upon tracking it? BMW does the same thing. Go read the handbooks. It specifically says your warranty is voided when you track the car. I'm talking the performance range of BMWs too, M3, M5, 135i etc. I recall Porsche does that in the US too?

 If the text quoted by Porsche-Jeck above is indeed an excerpt from the manual Nissan limits the use of the GTR to an extent that is not comparable at all to Porsche's warranty framework. In essence, any use of the GTR on a track voids the warranty. Switching off ESP does void the warranty as well  This is incredible 

 If it's true that switching off ESP voids warranty then it is indeed ridiculous!  But is that the case or is it in combination of using launch control?  As for any use on track voiding warranty, that is exactly what the BMW M handbooks says. 

Eunice:

The perfect driving line does change with the car. Imagine the difference between AWD/RWD/FWD.

Or compare the line of a car with less power/better handling to a car with more horsepower/less handling. 

Some of them would perform better on the longer and smoother outside route while others would be faster with a sharper bend and the shorter route.

I must disagree here. I don't want to jump in the GTR disscussion here but since I have raced 3 years I would like to contribute here.

Well, I have raced 2 season in Honda Civic Type R cup and 1 year in Mitsubishi EVO IX on the same boring 2 circuits; well this is what we have in Turkey.

Evenif the 2 cars are totally different (Civic Type R is N/A, front wheel drive with mech. LSD approx. 200 hp; EVO IX is AWD, Turbo, 320 Hp) the racing line was almost the same. Only depending on the angle of the turn, turning point changes. The real difference is at how you enter the corner; not the racing line actually.

To be more specific, with EVO IX it is better to turn in slower and get on the throttle as early as possible once and for all. However, with Honda, you enter the corner with as much speed as you can carry and flat out as you hit the apex.

However, everytime, you almost use the exact same line, so there is no difference on the length of the lap..

--
 

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Orabidoo:

Please, think a little before you post. At least when you're trying to make me a fool.

Would you please be so kind to watch your "tone" towards our moderators? Thank you.

AUM:

MKSGR, please consider quitting as a moderator. You are not suitable for this work and you are making Rennteam look  intolerant and blinkered, which it certainly is not, apart from you.

Would you please be so kind to refrain from attacking our moderators? 

If you have personal issues with one of them, use the Private Message system to sort out things.

This thread is very close to being closed permanently.

The thread became very hot after some posts.

IMHO, here the forum where we discuss Porsche most of all.

But GTR is a good car and we couldnt avoid discussing it.

It's a matter of choice - 997TT or GTR

I like 997.2 TT more but its really not cheap.

I just would like to ask everybody who write here in the thread - to use real facts and arguments, not just assumptions. Then it will be much more positive and useful.

If you have an experience with GTR - then write it here. And of course its funny to read posts of pro-Nissan users here:-)

Good Luck

thanks for the reply

I am glad you understand my point.

I am not a Nissan marketing guy.

I just would like to have a reasonable discussion.

GTR is less stable on the track than GT3 for example.

But for one-two laps it's fantastic. Checked with my own experience.  

I think we should wait for the reply of Porsche with its 997.2 TT and 997.2 GT2 - they will be really very smart. 

pride355:

Eunice:

The perfect driving line does change with the car. Imagine the difference between AWD/RWD/FWD.

Or compare the line of a car with less power/better handling to a car with more horsepower/less handling. 

Some of them would perform better on the longer and smoother outside route while others would be faster with a sharper bend and the shorter route.

I must disagree here. I don't want to jump in the GTR disscussion here but since I have raced 3 years I would like to contribute here.

Well, I have raced 2 season in Honda Civic Type R cup and 1 year in Mitsubishi EVO IX on the same boring 2 circuits; well this is what we have in Turkey.

Evenif the 2 cars are totally different (Civic Type R is N/A, front wheel drive with mech. LSD approx. 200 hp; EVO IX is AWD, Turbo, 320 Hp) the racing line was almost the same. Only depending on the angle of the turn, turning point changes. The real difference is at how you enter the corner; not the racing line actually.

To be more specific, with EVO IX it is better to turn in slower and get on the throttle as early as possible once and for all. However, with Honda, you enter the corner with as much speed as you can carry and flat out as you hit the apex.

However, everytime, you almost use the exact same line, so there is no difference on the length of the lap..

 

 I'm with Eunice. The line does change with the car "in general".

It also depends on the track, and maybe on your track the difference wasn't noticeable, but usually a high powered car takes a turn following the "V"-shape while a lighter cars follows the "C"-shape.

A lighter car also takes the shorter route, to make up for the lack of power, while the faster car takes a longer one...

Gauss:

  I'm with Eunice. The line does change with the car "in general".

It also depends on the track, and maybe on your track the difference wasn't noticeable, but usually a high powered car takes a turn following the "V"-shape while a lighter cars follows the "C"-shape.

A lighter car also takes the shorter route, to make up for the lack of power, while the faster car takes a longer one...

Maybe this can be true for 150 hp car vs 600 hp car. But the 2 race tracks which are rather short and slow tracks have the almost same racing line which is of course different in the qualifiying and in the race.

And what you discribe is how you take the turn, the entry and the exit line are the same. This what I tried to explain as how you carry speed during the corner and your potantial speed. However, what was suggested was different entry and exit lines as well as general different racing line.

Also, it can also depend on the track but where I raced, it was almost the same.

I also raced (but just in Honda Cup) and drove my Carrera S (during Porsche Club track days) on İstanbul Park F1 circuit, and even there I don't think the racing line would change with a different car except maybe different driving tecniques.

For example: 7th Corner on İstanbul Park is 120-130 degree wide corner at the end of one 3 fast straights. Some of the F1 drivers early apex the corner and use the wide road in the corner and finally exit outside of the corner. However, others brake longer, late apex and take a more straight line.

I don't know which one is faster but 1st technique has a shorter distance as you cut the corner.
--
 

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Haha, I don;t know why I can stay out of this discussion for so long.

All I can say is deja vu all over again. On this board HvS is god to some, his lap times are THE benchmark. 3 years ago we all bitch about how HvS is some 10+ seconds slower than Rohrl in a 997 TT and how some think Rohrl time is invalid. Now HvS is some 10+ seconds slower than Suzuki and how un-believable Nissan's time is. Can someone accept HvS is not as fast as people think and he cannot squeeze out the last bit of performance out of a car like factory drivers?

Jeff Gordon will probably get whipped by Michael Schumacher on a road course in a F1 car, and vice versa on a oval in a stock car. People have specialties and HvS cannot possibly be a master of ALL cars.

GTR is also well known to be short on brakes, it's is an extremely heavy car, it's awd system might bend physics to corner well, it might stop well for a short period of time, but it's just too heavy to be able to have a extend run brake fade free like Porsches.

Having said so,

Do I think Nissan cheated? Absolutely.

Do I think it matters? Not one bit. People do not cross-shop Nissan and Porsche period. Nissan had it sight on the 997TT when it spec the GTR means the 997TT is the golden standard, it's quite an honour. It's cheap enough that most people think it as a second car instead of a replacement for the 997TT,

Do I think GTR is as good car? Initially I don't like it, but over time it did grow on me and now I think it's going to be a fantastic winter beater in addition to my 997TT, I can save the 997TT from the winter salt and the mess from my kids, they can leave dirty cracker crumbs in the GTR instead of the Porsche. I am actually thinking about getting one just for that reason, it matches the 997TT in performance but roomier and I can travel with my family without compromise.

Whoopsy:

Haha, I don;t know why I can stay out of this discussion for so long.

All I can say is deja vu all over again. On this board HvS is god to some, his lap times are THE benchmark. 3 years ago we all bitch about how HvS is some 10+ seconds slower than Rohrl in a 997 TT and how some think Rohrl time is invalid. Now HvS is some 10+ seconds slower than Suzuki and how un-believable Nissan's time is. Can someone accept HvS is not as fast as people think and he cannot squeeze out the last bit of performance out of a car like factory drivers?

Jeff Gordon will probably get whipped by Michael Schumacher on a road course in a F1 car, and vice versa on a oval in a stock car. People have specialties and HvS cannot possibly be a master of ALL cars.

GTR is also well known to be short on brakes, it's is an extremely heavy car, it's awd system might bend physics to corner well, it might stop well for a short period of time, but it's just too heavy to be able to have a extend run brake fade free like Porsches.

Having said so,

Do I think Nissan cheated? Absolutely.

Do I think it matters? Not one bit. People do not cross-shop Nissan and Porsche period. Nissan had it sight on the 997TT when it spec the GTR means the 997TT is the golden standard, it's quite an honour. It's cheap enough that most people think it as a second car instead of a replacement for the 997TT,

Do I think GTR is as good car? Initially I don't like it, but over time it did grow on me and now I think it's going to be a fantastic winter beater in addition to my 997TT, I can save the 997TT from the winter salt and the mess from my kids, they can leave dirty cracker crumbs in the GTR instead of the Porsche. I am actually thinking about getting one just for that reason, it matches the 997TT in performance but roomier and I can travel with my family without compromise.

 

Fair enough
 

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

last week i had my first experience with the new GTR of my friend...we made enough tests and we changed car a copuple of time to see some certain trifle....here some fotos

P.S the car is still laid whenever we didnt make the required streetracing

P.S i will write yousoon my impressions

Whoopsy:

 

All I can say is deja vu all over again. On this board HvS is god to some, his lap times are THE benchmark. 3 years ago we all bitch about how HvS is some 10+ seconds slower than Rohrl in a 997 TT and how some think Rohrl time is invalid. Now HvS is some 10+ seconds slower than Suzuki and how un-believable Nissan's time is. Can someone accept HvS is not as fast as people think and he cannot squeeze out the last bit of performance out of a car like factory drivers?

 

 

 If you go through the above posts you will notice that it is not just the SportAuto (HvS) result we are discussing here. For example, we have a second (Patrick Simon) and a third (Drivers Republic) benchmark figure for the NS. Also, we are discussing some more recent live experiences of GTR owners and the warranty as posted by Porsche-jeck 

WAY:
Porsche-jeck, why are you singling out Nissan voiding warranty upon tracking it? BMW does the same thing. Go read the handbooks. It specifically says your warranty is voided when you track the car. I'm talking the performance range of BMWs too, M3, M5, 135i etc. I recall Porsche does that in the US too?

Hi Way, sorry for the late reply - I have been off over the weekend to enjoy my toy

Actually I don't know what the BMW warranty says (my 5series never sees the track ) - also stipulations may vary from country to country  I just find it odd that a carmaker builds a marketing campaign around the NoS theme and then does not allow the customer to track the car without voiding the warranty. @ Markus: yes, the german text is exactly what you get if you buy the GT-R in Germany.

Porsche-Jeck:

yes, the german text is exactly what you get if you buy the GT-R in Germany.

 Thanks for posting this text then. The warranty alone makes the car useless for anybody who wants to drive it on a track from time to time. Even participation in a driving school event will void the GTR warranty. That is incredible 

I agree with you: the Nissan marketing campaign is extremely misleading - they claim a track performance which customers are not able to exploit without voiding the warranty 

MKSGR:

Porsche-Jeck:

yes, the german text is exactly what you get if you buy the GT-R in Germany.

 Thanks for posting this text then. The warranty alone makes the car useless for anybody who wants to drive it on a track from time to time. Even participation in a driving school event will void the GTR warranty. That is incredible 

I agree with you: the Nissan marketing campaign is extremely misleading - they claim a track performance which customers are not able to exploit without voiding the warranty 

This is really ridicolous

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

I'm not sure if I should get involved in this discussion but here are some of my thoughts in a couple of short points:

1. for this kind of money, the Nissan GT-R is a real bargain and worth every cent.

2. the Nissan GT-R may not be as fast on the NS as Nissan claims (no, it isn't) but even if Horst v. Saurma's time is right, this is a pretty impressive time for a car of this price range

3. the GT-R brake system shows heavy fading after a couple of rounds in Hockenheim, this is a fact, something a good friend just reported and he really loves the GT-R

Overall, I think that the GT-R is the hell of a sportscar for the money Nissan asks for it, no matter if the GT-R does the NS in 7.26 or 7.37, it doesn't really matter. 
However, I still think that the GT-R is more of an Autobahn monster than a track racer, simply because I can't imagine (and almost all serious owner reports have confirmed it) that the durability of the used parts is good enough to withstand a prolonged track racing.

I'm actually not quite sure why this controversial discussion has gone THAT far.

Fact is: the Nissan GT-R is a VERY fast track car, according to one owner who is a professional track instructor, a car which can be driven extremely fast even by beginners without getting sweaty hands. 

Why is there so much fuss about the track performance? Well, simply because there is a huge difference between manufacturer claims and testing done by car magazines/motor journalists. It is not surprising at all that somebody like Walter Röhrl drives the 997 Turbo much faster on the Nordschleife than for example Horst v. Saurma. I'm also not surprised at all that a Nissan test driver was faster too according to a report from Nissan. This is nothing new, factory drivers are most of the time faster, they know these cars inside out and sometimes the test mules are not even stock.

Yes, the Nissan GT-R is the hell of a fast car and a real bargain.

Would I buy one? Probably not. Why not? Well...looks and the doubt that any car manufacturer can build such a performer without cost compromises. I don't want to say that Nissan sells cheap parts but personally, I would always think of the saying my father always taught me: "you always get what you pay for". I know that especially in Europe and especially nowadays when the economic situation is not very bright, people tend to question expensive cars like Porsches, Ferraris and others. I agree, you pay a lot of money for the brand too, no doubt about it. Still...I wouldn't buy a GT-R for various reasons, some of them may be related to my sportscar past, others to the perception of the GT-R and again others to the fact that I don't trust Nissan regarding reliability of the technology when used on the track. I know that Porsche doesn't allow track racing either but usually these cars are very reliable, even when track raced. I also know of many 997 Turbo which are heavily modified and track raced and the engines/trannies are still "alive". Don't know if tuned GT-R will be the same quality.

One thing is for sure though: the GT-R will be the love child of many many tuners and I wouldn't be surprised to see it more and more on the street. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I'm not sure if I should get involved in this discussion but here are some of my thoughts in a couple of short points:

1. for this kind of money, the Nissan GT-R is a real bargain and worth every cent.

2. the Nissan GT-R may not be as fast on the NS as Nissan claims (no, it isn't) but even if Horst v. Saurma's time is right, this is a pretty impressive time for a car of this price range

3. the GT-R brake system shows heavy fading after a couple of rounds in Hockenheim, this is a fact, something a good friend just reported and he really loves the GT-R

Overall, I think that the GT-R is the hell of a sportscar for the money Nissan asks for it, no matter if the GT-R does the NS in 7.26 or 7.37, it doesn't really matter. 
However, I still think that the GT-R is more of an Autobahn monster than a track racer, simply because I can't imagine (and almost all serious owner reports have confirmed it) that the durability of the used parts is good enough to withstand a prolonged track racing.

I'm actually not quite sure why this controversial discussion has gone THAT far.

Fact is: the Nissan GT-R is a VERY fast track car, according to one owner who is a professional track instructor, a car which can be driven extremely fast even by beginners without getting sweaty hands. 

Why is there so much fuss about the track performance? Well, simply because there is a huge difference between manufacturer claims and testing done by car magazines/motor journalists. It is not surprising at all that somebody like Walter Röhrl drives the 997 Turbo much faster on the Nordschleife than for example Horst v. Saurma. I'm also not surprised at all that a Nissan test driver was faster too according to a report from Nissan. This is nothing new, factory drivers are most of the time faster, they know these cars inside out and sometimes the test mules are not even stock.

Yes, the Nissan GT-R is the hell of a fast car and a real bargain.

Would I buy one? Probably not. Why not? Well...looks and the doubt that any car manufacturer can build such a performer without cost compromises. I don't want to say that Nissan sells cheap parts but personally, I would always think of the saying my father always taught me: "you always get what you pay for". I know that especially in Europe and especially nowadays when the economic situation is not very bright, people tend to question expensive cars like Porsches, Ferraris and others. I agree, you pay a lot of money for the brand too, no doubt about it. Still...I wouldn't buy a GT-R for various reasons, some of them may be related to my sportscar past, others to the perception of the GT-R and again others to the fact that I don't trust Nissan regarding reliability of the technology when used on the track. I know that Porsche doesn't allow track racing either but usually these cars are very reliable, even when track raced. I also know of many 997 Turbo which are heavily modified and track raced and the engines/trannies are still "alive". Don't know if tuned GT-R will be the same quality.

One thing is for sure though: the GT-R will be the love child of many many tuners and I wouldn't be surprised to see it more and more on the street. 

That is the most balanced post yet.  Thanks Christian.  Just one thing though, the previous generations of GT-Rs have been tuned with massive hp and races all around the world with great success.  We have heaps of them here.  Europeans have no idea about the prowess of the GT-R brand name because it is all new to you.  I have a friend with a R34 V-Spec GT-R putting out 650hp.  His car laps 3 seconds faster than 996 GT2 at our local track.  The owners of exotics here knows about these cars and no one even blinks an eye when a GT-R is much faster than an exotic.

RC:

I'm not sure if I should get involved in this discussion but here are some of my thoughts in a couple of short points:

1. for this kind of money, the Nissan GT-R is a real bargain and worth every cent.

2. the Nissan GT-R may not be as fast on the NS as Nissan claims (no, it isn't) but even if Horst v. Saurma's time is right, this is a pretty impressive time for a car of this price range

3. the GT-R brake system shows heavy fading after a couple of rounds in Hockenheim, this is a fact, something a good friend just reported and he really loves the GT-R

Overall, I think that the GT-R is the hell of a sportscar for the money Nissan asks for it, no matter if the GT-R does the NS in 7.26 or 7.37, it doesn't really matter. 
However, I still think that the GT-R is more of an Autobahn monster than a track racer, simply because I can't imagine (and almost all serious owner reports have confirmed it) that the durability of the used parts is good enough to withstand a prolonged track racing.

I'm actually not quite sure why this controversial discussion has gone THAT far.

Fact is: the Nissan GT-R is a VERY fast track car, according to one owner who is a professional track instructor, a car which can be driven extremely fast even by beginners without getting sweaty hands. 

Why is there so much fuss about the track performance? Well, simply because there is a huge difference between manufacturer claims and testing done by car magazines/motor journalists. It is not surprising at all that somebody like Walter Röhrl drives the 997 Turbo much faster on the Nordschleife than for example Horst v. Saurma. I'm also not surprised at all that a Nissan test driver was faster too according to a report from Nissan. This is nothing new, factory drivers are most of the time faster, they know these cars inside out and sometimes the test mules are not even stock.

Yes, the Nissan GT-R is the hell of a fast car and a real bargain.

Would I buy one? Probably not. Why not? Well...looks and the doubt that any car manufacturer can build such a performer without cost compromises. I don't want to say that Nissan sells cheap parts but personally, I would always think of the saying my father always taught me: "you always get what you pay for". I know that especially in Europe and especially nowadays when the economic situation is not very bright, people tend to question expensive cars like Porsches, Ferraris and others. I agree, you pay a lot of money for the brand too, no doubt about it. Still...I wouldn't buy a GT-R for various reasons, some of them may be related to my sportscar past, others to the perception of the GT-R and again others to the fact that I don't trust Nissan regarding reliability of the technology when used on the track. I know that Porsche doesn't allow track racing either but usually these cars are very reliable, even when track raced. I also know of many 997 Turbo which are heavily modified and track raced and the engines/trannies are still "alive". Don't know if tuned GT-R will be the same quality.

One thing is for sure though: the GT-R will be the love child of many many tuners and I wouldn't be surprised to see it more and more on the street. 

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

WAY:

Europeans have no idea about the prowess of the GT-R brand name because it is all new to you.  I have a friend with a R34 V-Spec GT-R putting out 650hp.  His car laps 3 seconds faster than 996 GT2 at our local track.  The owners of exotics here knows about these cars and no one even blinks an eye when a GT-R is much faster than an exotic.

Well, its not that new to me(us) but the german TÜV usually is very careful about what they allow to be streetlegal and what not. There are Porsche 911 Turbos with 800-900 HP driving around the world, especially in the US. These cars would never ever be streetlegal over here for various reasons. This doesn't mean we don't know about them. 

It happened more than two decades ago but I still have the horror pictures in my mind when the turbo charger of a highly tuned Lancia Delta HF Integrale exploded at a speed of around 150 kph on the Autobahn, opening the hood and throwing it towards the windshield, making me completely blind at that speed. I was lucky I didn't panic and I was lucky the Autobahn was pretty straight, so nothing serious happened and I was able to safely stop the car on the right side of the lane. Another horror experience with a "cheap" chip tuning on my first 996 Turbo (before I brought it to RS Tuning): at a speed of around 300 kph in a pretty narrow Autobahn curve, the boost pressure suddenly dropped to around 0.2 bar. This sudden drop de-stabilized the car and I almost crashed.

Sorry but when it comes to tuned cars, I like to play it safe. Most GT-R mods are software based, maybe larger turbos and intercoolers. I don't see how the GT-R can "survive" this when driven very hard. Sooner or later, there will be surprises.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

 

I'm actually not quite sure why this controversial discussion has gone THAT far.

 

Why is there so much fuss about the track performance? 

 

Would I buy one? Probably not. Why not? Well...looks 

Along these lines - Can we ban all future mention or discussion of the GTR? 
 

Sometimes when I log in that is all that is new, endless discussion of this butt effin ugly car and arguments over seconds on a track. Buy a go-kart for track use. Give it a break or create a new GTR forum.

I am half joking, but ONLY half.

No different than the Z06 discussions from the past... Funny the ZR1 never got quite the attention