CloseJul 1, 2009 2:59:31 PM
TEE:
Porsche-Jeck:
TEE:
I for one only break/shift on straights, not in corners
SissyJust try it - it's a whole new experience
well I will admitted, I do tend to trailbreak into certain corners
Nice typo though...
: Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black
racerx:
Do you walk upstairs or take an elevator in tall buildings?
I walk when I can actually. Actually, I still write letters, I still cook, I still read books, I still use a phone with a cord attached, I still think for myself - damn you just helped me realise I am ancient 
TEE:
racerx:
TEE:
nberry:
However, the thought of shifting in the GT3 makes me feel like falling back to the past. It really is ancient technology.
Paddle shift and cars like the Nissan only mean that more people can experince going fast - often without the talent...
Like formula 1 drivers?
Shifting is like using the pony express for mail, charming but ridiculous. The talent in going fast is being able to enjoy/handle/feel the edge of the car losing traction and when it does using throttle and steering inputs to control the vehicle.
Ahh my favorite expertnot sure how a manuel takes away from that
I for one only break/shift on straights, not in corners
but each to their own. Use of throttle and steering inputs would be the same in a manuel or paddle car
As for formula 1 - well a great example how to much technology turned a great sport and TV event into the most boring entertainment ever
How did shifting in corners enter the discussion?
The manual shift does not take away from car control but at the same time it does not add to it either.
The difference between (depressing a clutch and moving a lever) vs (clicking a paddle) is void of skill level differences. We are not talking double clutching with GT3's are we?
I have 50,000 miles of fast 5 speed driving and could shift as well and fast as anyone but that had nothing to do with my ability to control the car.
I also have a lot of F1 viewership experience including many races in person watching senna et al.The lack of excitement is partly track layout, ground effects, and aerodynamics, not shifting.
Jul 1, 2009 4:14:53 PM
racerx:The difference between (depressing a clutch and moving a lever) vs (clicking a paddle) is void of skill level differences. We are not talking double clutching with GT3's are we?
On the contrary, depressing the clutch and moving the lever is the easy part, the challenge is to desengaging the clutch while applying the maximum brake into the corner and throttle to match revs all at the same time, or coordinating succesive upshifts as fast as posible in the gear transitions while trying to be smooth as possible... everyone would agree that its all much different than simply fliping a paddle in a secuential or even worse in lifeless torque converter. And while I'm no expert at manual shifting (liking manual gearboxes in sportcars doesn't mean you are the best at it, and those that like secuentials doesn't mean that they can't drive a manual either), one doesn't need to be to appreciate the involvement it brings to the driving experience and the greater challenge it poses to the driver to try to get better at it, and the reward when you get that shift just as you wanted it.
Thats not to say that everyone should like that and drive a manual, each should go with what HE likes, but to say that manuals are ridiculous or that they don't make sense because its technology thats been around for years (so has Porsche's icon the rear engined 911) is quite the opposite of reality. Like I always said, manuals will always have a place in recreational sportcar vehicles, as do automatic gearboxes, each should choose which make him happier. Personally on a familiy car intended for "transport" I may go for an auto, on a sporcar intended for "driving" always a manual.
I don't know anyone personally that double clutches in cars with modern sincros, thats a whole different story.
Jul 1, 2009 5:18:19 PM
Jul 1, 2009 5:19:22 PM
This discussion made me think of cornering today and I have heard "experts" talk about the fastest way around corners and then I have seen some of the quickest racing drivers take corners.
The most fun corner guy was Stefan Bellof, i remember him at a Detroit GP sliding around the corners like crazy, and Alain prost sliding out of the corner at the end of the pit straight at Silverstone mid-80's leaving a rubber streak every lap and senna losing it in a corner at monaco.
Here is some great footage of fun cornering by Bellof (RIP) at monaco same corner that senna cliped the armco.
These are talents I speak of
Jul 2, 2009 8:24:33 AM
Porsche-Jeck:
TEE:guide by our expert friends on this site, he is a current formula 1 driver so must have been an automatic.
Can't beat the logic
Very nice rear bumber and exhaust tips
Are they Tech Art ??
ONUR
09 Audi TTS Ibis
07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)
Jul 4, 2009 2:39:27 PM
Carlos from Spain:
racerx:Like formula 1 drivers?
.
The real talent lies in doing all that AND also managing effective manual shifts at the same time, and there lies the greater challenge and the greater involvement that manual drivers love. There in no talent and no involvement in fliping a paddle.
--
Carlos, your above comment demostrates your lack of knowledge in the useof paddles.If anything, it requires an acute sense of the car and its driving dynamics. Knowing when to use the paddles is what makes the car go faster than manual. Do not confuse ease of shifting with lack of drivng talent.
Jul 4, 2009 5:00:49 PM
nberry:
.If anything, it requires an acute sense of the car and its driving dynamics.
Knowing when to use the paddles is what makes the car go faster than manual.
I know its been a while since you have driven a manual o hit the track but you think that the manual gearbox initiates the shift by itself like an auto in D mode?
I'll have you know that in a manual gearbox, the driver ALSO has to know when to initiate the shift, oh great paddlemaister, up to that point its the same as a secuential, but everything that follows is when things are completely different. You not only have to know when to initiate the shift given the vehicle situation and dinamics, but also do the whole -brake-clutch-shift-blip-declutch-throttle- yourself instead of the car taking over at that point and doing everything for you and perfect everytime. THATS what makes the car go faster than a manual 
Jul 4, 2009 10:30:51 PM
Jul 5, 2009 12:18:46 AM
I have tried them Nick, while I can appreciate the efficiency in getting the shifts right everytime and improving my driving by allowing me to concentrate solely on the wheel since the shifting process is simplified so much, but after a while when the novelty and experimentation phase wears off, it gets boring quickly, its less of a challenge, there is less driving left to the driver, there is less interaction with the car's control, etc.
In lack of a better analogy its like if you enjoy climbing mountains and instead of actually climbing the mountain to get to the top, you walk along the road that leads to the top. Yes, taking the road is faster and easier, and climbing the mountain is the old way up the mountain, but taking the road is not as fun, not as challenging, not as involving jo matter how fast you are up the mountain by taking the road. If I were racing to reach the top (racecars) or simply wanted to get there fast or easily (family cars) I would take the road, but if I were doing it for fun (sportcars) I would climb it.
nberry:
Carlos you always have struck me as an intelligent high tech type of guy.I have no doubt that once you learn to use a capable paddle system you will never go back to manual.
Nick,
Sorry about jumping in to your debate with Carlos. BUT, I think that you are confused little bit beween sequential ,manuals and DCTs.
Sequential manuals a la F1 in F430 is indeed as you said moderately demanding in proper use of paddles(changing the gears). Since to get fully smooth upshift in everyday driving situations you need to modulate the throttle during gearchanges in manual mode. I owned same F430F1 Spider as you did and at least that is my experience. Different thing is full throttle/full attack driving...
DCTs a la PDK or California DCT are VERY different in bahaviour. Here your input via paddles is NOT IMPORTANT at ALL! Little AI inside DCT will adjust throttle response, shifiting speed, interventions of ESP in the way it thinks is the best for your current speed, lateral Gs etc. Most importantly all sporty DCTs are designed to work very BEST in D(or full auto mode). Your really need to drive California or PDK 997.2 for few days to see how it really works. Some people likes it a lot, other like me are not seduced at all. DCT/PDK is excellent automatic replacment. IMHO of course...
I agree with your description of the DCT. However, you can adjust the manetto to provide a more challenging ride. My drive in the CA GT was about an hour so you may be right as to whether a long term driving experience would change my impression. My discussion with Carlos was always in reference to the F1 style transmission. Thanks for the clarification.
Carlos, your analogy is a good one. I can only respond by indicating my goal is to reach the top of mountain as fast as I can. No doubt some would find it more rewarding working harder to reach the top in a slower time.
Jul 9, 2009 1:41:39 PM
Carlos from Spain:
nberry:
I find it interesting that just about every premium sport car manufacturer designs their cars with sexiness, flare and sensuousness except Porsche. In addition, they provide computerized shifting, exotic exhaust sounds and limited production. Porsche does not. I can only assume Porsche is not meant to be a premium sport car.
If all you are concerned about is performance, get yourself a GT-R or a Corvette.
See? that is why I don't understand how now all of a sudden you consider a Porsche
, its like voting Bush one year and Obama the next
- Gotta admit Nick, that was funny.
Nick - I don't think you'd be happy w/ a 911, you like that exclusive factor. I bet you'll probably just wait for the 450. I agree you should get the coupe, I always felt when it comes to the F-Car the coupe was the way to go, it's just a much better looking car because the Spider version affects the whole car back of the windshield all the way to the tail lights. It ruins the look of large rear glass/engine underneath. The Spider's top & lack of C-pillar windows is so awkward looking, it makes the side windows look very square. Plus the most beautiful lines on past 8cyl F-Car's have been the roof line in the coupe, the way it connects to the rear quarter panels. Although not as sharp looking as the 911 coupe the 911 Cabriolet makes for a much better looking convertible than the F-car Spiders,,imo.
RE: Stick vs F1 - It's not fun but I'm still conducting human trials to see what's best, I tell my wife it could take some time before there is any consensus. Or a conclusion may never happen, just one big, long test. One thing I can say for sure each one feels better than the other & more fun depending on one factor - Whatever system you're currently operating at the time. I don't even get paid for this research, it's a thankless job.
Congrats on selling your Spider!!.
--
08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430, 04 Durango HEMI, 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle, 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia
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