Crown

A quick comment on your lastest graph...

To me the stock units do fairly well cooling the air under power (only ~13 degreeC rise in 4th). The reason its a good idea to replace them with better units,imo, is that at baseline they run nearly 20 degrees above ambient leaving almost no safe room for a temp spike under power.

I did a run today , ambient temarature was between 44-45 degrees , the run was till 265 kmph , Iats on normal off boost driving were about 5 - 6 degrees above ambient  , so things are statring to get hot on the top of 4th gear with 40 degrees above ambient!!

Rpm                           IATS

TTurbine.......84.7 DegC !!!!!!!!! OMG that must be close to ignition shutdown  - If you had revved it to 6800rpm ~275kph I bet you would have been way over 90DegC, this is crazy hot - my Motronic data from my 993tt build shows a reduction of boost by 15% at 80DegC, I wonder if our engines do similar ?

Porschefile1........ I see what you are saying about the stock intercoolers, but if they are already running way above ambient before loading then they are already a POS, it is obviously the duration of the loading which brings the heat and because these cars accelerate so fast one only gets 3 or 4 seconds in 2nd gear and 5 or 6 in 3rd gear so the real heat only comes in via the loading in 4th onwards - I think you have to look at the overall "above ambient" to judge the intercoolers.

I know on the Secan I have on the 993tt the IAT before loading was always virtually at ambient temperature, I could use the intake temperature gauge as an "outside temperature" monitor - seriously they were that good !

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TB993TT...

my Motronic data from my 993tt build shows a reduction of boost by 15% at 80DegC, I wonder if our engines do similar ?

I did some runs later at night it was cooler about 34 degrees , i feel that the car had atleast 15% more power than the run i did when it was 44 degrees.... it was definatly pulling harder at high rpms

the car surely has more power  as i can feel the timing being pulled at 4000rpm and onwards, i had a chat with Alois Ruf yesterday he told me the temparature has to be atleast 25 degrees to have minimal power loss due to the dme pulling timing..

I "acquired" this data from RS Tuning a couple of years ago, it is how the timing is pulled on my 3.8 993tt engine, you can see the IAT on the left and the corresponding timing retard by rpm. It starts retarding at 37.5DegC. I will find out at some point if our newer engines are any different but suspect not (the boost is also reduced in a similar way)

I got the intercoolers in my possession. If they work as well as they look it should be good news. They weigh 3.76kg....each

--
 

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TB993tt:

Getting back to your question, the 997GT2 does run very high IATs as stock, it has the high 1.4bar boost at the top end which despite the cooling effect of the expansion manifold (I’ve heard the number 15DegC reduction banded around)  still is on the limit of the stock units. Obviously the stock units work well enough to produce the 530PS enabling a 204mph top speed but any ECU tuning is going to trip the IAT over what the stock intercoolers can handle, the effect of which is probably not noticeable (in terms of acceleration) unless the car is tracked, maxed out, used in very high ambient temps.

Hi Toby

I am very much enjoying this thread.  I am however a little confused as to your motivations (and whether I should be sharing any of them myself with my car) as I thought you didn't do too many track days, or regular Autobahn driving to warrant spending big bucks on intercoolers?  Plus the UK rarely gets passed 20 degC ambient temp so I guess it's pretty hard to see big power losses due to temp unless you are doing a track day on the hottest day of the year.  So are the benefits really worth considering this mod?

I have a private test track nearbye

Hmmmm, please don't get yourself into trouble.  We understand how solid our cars are at these speeds but a 'marshal' probably won't.

Alex..... my motivations ? mmmm, hard one ? I am getting the GT2 mapped and as is shown above the IAT is currently right at the limit so it is only going hotter with more power and I like to "keep" the power I paid for....

I like "efficiency" and proper Secan like intercoolers delivery awesome efficiency, free power.....

Also I am a geek

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

Well we are all geeks or we wouldn't be on a Porsche forum

And I certainly understand the appeal of efficiency, it's really just about costs vs relative gains.

So should I be considering your intercoolers for my car given I rarely go above 100 and when I do it is only briefly?

--

Alex, no you don't "need" an intercooler, unless you are an uber geek who gets "satisfaction" just knowing its there doing its stuff.......

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TB993tt , i cannot wait for the new intercooler results....

Intercoolers installed - initial testing:

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

Impressive results  thats 12 degrees above ambient.... compared to 31 + degrees on the stock intercoolers... , what is your impression of the new intercoolers? more power through the power band? better response?

Here is another one.

The IAT can change depending on how much airflow one has previously had through the cores. In the one below the car was allowed to idle for 10 minutes and had an initial IAT of 33.7 degC which can be seen at 30kph, once the airflow started the IAT dropped slightly then rose again as the real load came in up to maximum revs in 4th (about 230kph) then into 5th gear briefly.....

TT

I need to do more testing but response is great (possibly better than before), some awesome noises of rushing air.... I have a bloody nail in a rear tyre so will not be going too fast until I get some new boots on !

--

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

Toby

That is incredibly better! It is better at start above ambient and better at cooling under load! I know you cant tell much about performance yet but are you seeing more boost on your gauge?

porschephile1:

Toby

That is incredibly better! It is better at start above ambient and better at cooling under load! I know you cant tell much about performance yet but are you seeing more boost on your gauge?

It is looking very promising, I'd like to see just how high it goes at the top of 5th gear. I discussed the testing with RS Tuning (who sell the Secan) who reckon the Secan gives 50 degC max IAT in 35 degC ambient - I think that is too much to ask but I will continue to get data.

I didn't look at the boost, not sure why the ECU would give more boost ? I would have thought it would reduce it if anything to hit the air mass target which would require less boost due to the larger amount of oxygen in the cooler intake air ?

The GT2 seems THE candidate for professional quality intercooler as it runs these high IATs with 1.4 bar boost through the same intercoolers as the 997tt which runs 0.9bar boost !

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

You're making me want some now Toby!!  My car is definitely less violent as the temperature increases. 

25 degC ambient temp most of today so I could certainly feel the difference even at lower speeds.

Boost read-out goes straight to 1.0/1.2 bar (normal/over-boost in sport) for me though no matter what the temp is outside.

TB993tt:

porschephile1:

Toby

That is incredibly better! It is better at start above ambient and better at cooling under load! I know you cant tell much about performance yet but are you seeing more boost on your gauge?

It is looking very promising, I'd like to see just how high it goes at the top of 5th gear. I discussed the testing with RS Tuning (who sell the Secan) who reckon the Secan gives 50 degC max IAT in 35 degC ambient - I think that is too much to ask but I will continue to get data.

I didn't look at the boost, not sure why the ECU would give more boost ? I would have thought it would reduce it if anything to hit the air mass target which would require less boost due to the larger amount of oxygen in the cooler intake air ?

The GT2 seems THE candidate for professional quality intercooler as it runs these high IATs with 1.4 bar boost through the same intercoolers as the 997tt which runs 0.9bar boost !

Boost should go up because the new ICs are less restrictive than the old ones. IOW, you should be loosing less boost across the new ICs, not making more boost. My boost went from 1.1 bar to 1.2-1.3 bar at high rpm when I changed the stock units for the EVOMS units. Of course your program has to allow more boost otherwise the ECU will open the WGs and let it out (which would be a shame)! 
 

About boost pressure lost across an IC. This is data from the AWE site on their ICs (which are similar in price and construction to the EVOMS (imo).

TB993TT  , will lower iats lead to lower egt? since the combustion chamber will be cooler?

porschephile1:

Boost should go up because the new ICs are less restrictive than the old ones. IOW, you should be loosing less boost across the new ICs, not making more boost. My boost went from 1.1 bar to 1.2-1.3 bar at high rpm when I changed the stock units for the EVOMS units. Of course your program has to allow more boost otherwise the ECU will open the WGs and let it out (which would be a shame)! 
 

Pressure drop doesn't have that much to do with the boost on our Motronic controlled engines - they have air mass targets which they endeavour to hit by controlling the turbos' boost output if there is more pressure drop across the intercooler (like on the stock ones in AWE's diagram) then the ECU will control the VVTs to make more boost to compensate so that the "demanded" air mass target can be met.

Similarly if a new more efficient intercooler lowers the IAT which physically increases the number of air molecules in the the charge air (relative to using the stock intercooler) then the ECU will reduce boost to bring the new air mass back to hit the original target.

Obviously the more efficient intercooler gives room for a Motronic tuner to make use of the extra air molecules firstly by getting optimum timing advance and then air mass/fuel increases......

I think what you are describing is that your new tuned program could not deliver the target air mass #s because of the restrictiveness of the standard intercoolers so the better flowing units allowed said targets to be hit and the "boost to flow" - I didn't realise how restrictive the stock units were since they will flow at 1.4bar on the GT2 (albiet at high IATs) so what you describe is puzzling me

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TTurbine:

TB993TT  , will lower iats lead to lower egt? since the combustion chamber will be cooler?

It follows doesn't it, but I guess then we all want to use up that "headroom" and get more power which gets all the temperatures back to where Porsche says they are OK !

Alex: There is no doubt with your tuning your car would benefit substantially, but as you pointed out to me if you are not tracking or competing in some way, one is only doing it for some kind of geeky pleasure

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TB993tt:

I think what you are describing is that your new tuned program could not deliver the target air mass #s because of the restrictiveness of the standard intercoolers so the better flowing units allowed said targets to be hit and the "boost to flow" - I didn't realise how restrictive the stock units were since they will flow at 1.4bar on the GT2 (albiet at high IATs) so what you describe is puzzling me

I suppose that is it. The EVOMS program could not get all the boost called for past the stock IC.

My understanding is that your stock 997 GT-2 ICs were somewhat better than the stock 996 TT ICs but not drastically better (~15%). With your new setup, you may not get any more peak boost but I would pay attention to the point you hit 1.4 bar. You could see that you hit max boost at a lower point on the rpm curve with the new ICs.

TB99TT , do you happen to know the pressure drop of your new intercoolers?

TTurbine:

TB99TT , do you happen to know the pressure drop of your new intercoolers?

No idea.......

Quite a complicated subject this since it is all math and knowing the numbers to put into the formulae.

Pressure drop can be caused mainly by too big cores and too many cooling fins restricting the flow AFAIK, of course not enough fins and you aren't going to extract any heat out of the charged air.

I know my core manufacturer looked at the AWE cores before designing these and commented that they looked designed for maximum flow which probably is confirmed by the diagram above....

Despite saying otherwise I belive the budget intercooler manufacturers simply use generic cores not designed for the specific application, which is fine but this is never going to produce the best functioning intercooler...

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TB993TT:

Despite saying otherwise I belive the budget intercooler manufacturers simply use generic cores not designed for the specific application, which is fine but this is never going to produce the best functioning intercooler..

Does that mean that the budget intercooler is nothing more special than the other 1k euro intercoolers out there?

TTurbine:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does that mean that the budget intercooler is nothing more special than the other 1k euro intercoolers out there?

 

You usually get what you pay for., but then do most people "need" this sort of efficiency ? probably not.... having said that your data shows tha you would definately feel a big difference if you had better intercoolers.

I am hoping to test these in higher temperatures ~30DegC (not quite Qatar style but the best we can manage in N Europe :) ) up to 300kph and attempt to heat soak by repeated high load acceleratrion. Will share the results...

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

TB993TT , Yesterday late at night i was coming back home from my freinds , it was about 3 am , temparature was about 38 but  there was barely a breath of air outside and was humid.... full boost 1st , 2nd , 3rd , as soon as i hit 4th i felt like something was stoping my car was definatly an agressive pull of timing , at around 220 boost went down to 1 bar , at 230ish it went down to .7   , to conclude what i said on my prevoius runs when it showed 70 - 84.7 degs iats boost was fluctuating between 1.1 , 1 , 1.2 bar without the arrow , so i beleive that the iats maybe hitted near the 100 degree range to have this sort of power reduction...... i was told by Ruf that on the best conditions the car should boost 1.4 - 1.5 bar ( when the arrow comes up beside the boost display) so at 230 km the boost was cut down by 47% than its boost output in perfect conditions , we all know that our cars are relying on boost to produce power , so this means that the car was using only 53% of its power :(

So i beleive the budget intercooler or any effiecnt intercooler out there can compensate for the heat and make the car run close to  optimal conditions.

FYI , i contacted a reputed tuner he told me evrey degree that is droped in IATS equals a degree droped in EGTS

so even if you are not quite happy with your results , your car is running more efficient which will lead to better fuel consumption , cooler combustion chamber and less overall stress on your engine.

Now for me i am very confused i want to pull the triger on one of these intercoolers out there , i am not sure whether its going to be AWEs , or the 4.5in Protomotive intercoolers , or the new budget intercooler.....................

38  degrees Celsius here in Spain I need some refreshment for my engine too. Keep posting

Managed to get to the top of 5th gear today, 170 GPS, maxrpm engine under load for 17 seconds with the associated airflow through the cores which comes with such speeds.
It was 17 degC ambient and the max IAT was 32.2 DegC so 15 DegC above ambient.
I included a clip from a run I did with the stoc intercooler in 17 degC ambient. The 997 GT2 with its high standard boost pressure is such a good candidate for efficient intercoolers...

I noticed the IAT would drop back to near ambient very quickly after a high speed run so it is looking good on the "heatsoak" front also...

2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM

Toby

That looks even better at lower ambients! So the IATs appear 1-2 degrees above ambient cruising? Thats very excellent if Iam reading graph correctly.

Do you have any impressions for how the car drives or accelerates with the new coolers on?