Crown

REALZEUS:

Spyderidol: It is to my undestanding tha the fastest GT2 lap was made by a 430 by far! So the 911 is by no means faster over a single lap!

 

Ed_Meoree: Peugeot tried for 3 years but that's only normal... Audi was running by it self for a decade or so. Now that they have got competion they are not running away, are they? Last year they were also not the quickest but won because of reliability issues on Peugeots front (and I don't even like the frenchies...).

 

Audi dominated LeMans for a very long time, but it's nice that it's shaken up, that usually improves the cars a lot.

I'm really impressed by the F430's performance, but can you really say something about stock cars based on these results?

Yes, up to a point.

Most people know that stock for stock 430s are much quicker than the equivalent 911s. Same here.

As for Audi - I really have no sympathy! They (along with Peugeot) are the reason why we have these ridiculous pro-diesel rules. They have been finally beaten at their own game.

Having said that - Wendy needs to really look closely at the marketing mileage that Audi has reeped (especially in the US) from its agresssive (and quite expensive) racing program. It was beaten today (with a very new car), but if allowed, it will come back and win again.

Spyderidol:

Having said all that, the impression with which I was left was that the RSR is now overstretched in its development. It may be quicker than the dancing donkey over one lap, and it may even beat it in a 2,5 hour race (ALMS), but it is no car to win at Le Mans against the donkeys.

With all due respect buddy, I cannot follow your considerations. If the car is quicker over one lap and a complete stint, the main flaw must be its reliability. The RSR has won the 24h at Nürburgring, this year with a significant pace to go against the Audi R8 racecars.

So I disagree that the RSR´s engine is overstretched, furthermore this does not make its rear-engined concept to be flawed, rather its execution. Apart from Ferrari and Porsche, there is no serious competitor to enter Le Mans this year, not even BMW with their newly developed M3 V8.

Peugeot did a great job and I honestly did not expect them that far ahead of Audi. Whatever it is, Le Mans consisted of these four brands above, with Aston Martin´s or Pescarolo´s gasoline-powered LMP1 cars to be close but innocuous contestants.

REALZEUS:

Spyderidol: It is to my undestanding tha the fastest GT2 lap was made by a 430 by far! So the 911 is by no means faster over a single lap!

 

 

Qualifying Times:

Miller Motorsport Park (last race in ALMS)

Porsche RSR 1:47.120 (pole)

Ferrari 430 1:47.265

Sebring

Porsche RSR 2:03.051 (Pole)

Le Mans

Porsche RSR  (Pole)

Ferdie:

Spyderidol:

Having said all that, the impression with which I was left was that the RSR is now overstretched in its development. It may be quicker than the dancing donkey over one lap, and it may even beat it in a 2,5 hour race (ALMS), but it is no car to win at Le Mans against the donkeys.

With all due respect buddy, I cannot follow your considerations. If the car is quicker over one lap and a complete stint, the main flaw must be its reliability. The RSR has won the 24h at Nürburgring, this year with a significant pace to go against the Audi R8 racecars.

So I disagree that the RSR´s engine is overstretched, furthermore this does not make its rear-engined concept to be flawed, rather its execution. Apart from Ferrari and Porsche, there is no serious competitor to enter Le Mans this year, not even BMW with their newly developed M3 V8.

Peugeot did a great job and I honestly did not expect them that far ahead of Audi. Whatever it is, Le Mans consisted of these four brands above, with Aston Martin´s or Pescarolo´s gasoline-powered LMP1 cars to be close but innocuous contestants.

The RSR is not quicker over one stint. It begins to loose it's advantage as soon as the rear tires begin to ware (75% through the stint)

Also - The RSR that raced at the 24h Nurburgring was heavily restricted. Engine was not putting out anywhere near it's max.

These times are pretty close mate and something tells me it's dpw to their drivers mostly. Also the Ferraris are not allowed to rev to their 500 BHP limit... beats me why!

There are no rules limiting Ferrari HP (or revs)

Why is that they state 450 CV only then? (I am not being smart here... just asking...)

Air Restrictors:

The size of the restrictors are determined by the weight of the car and the engine capacity

Spyderidol: 

The IMSA car (76) had a reasonable line-up (Narac is not a professional driver), but would be no match for a factory driven opponent. I'm not sure what the reasons were for this car's retirement. 

 

I did some research on that from the Official Site of 24H LM. It hit gearbox trouble at 11.00 am whilst running third in GT2. Spent time in the pits for repairs, lost plenty of places and finally retired on 23H due to the same problem.

Actually, this car was the only hope for a podium after all.

If you believe the Porsche Press Release the GT2 disaster was down to bad luck!

In the production-based GT2 class, the double pole for the 911 GT3 RSR from qualifying could not be turned into a race success. After just two hours, the race came to an end for the three Porsche works drivers Marc Lieb (Germany), Richard Lietz (Austria) and Wolf Henzler (Germany). A problem with the fuel system caused the engine of the 911 to die and not start again – 100 metres from the entrance to the pit lane. As the regulations do not allow a car to be towed in such a case, the leading trio of the German Felbermayr-Proton team had no chance to repair the otherwise technically perfect 911 and retired. “Of course I’m very disappointed,” said Marc Lieb. “But we are looking ahead and already looking forward to the next race in the Le Mans Series, where we want to extend our championship lead with another victory.”

For the American Flying Lizard team, the 2009 Le Mans race ended in the early morning hours when Darren Law (USA) collided heavily with the barriers. Prior to this, pole-setter Jörg Bergmeister (Germany) and team owner/gentleman driver Seth Neiman (USA) were steadily moving in the direction of a podium result with their GT3 RSR. The French IMSA Performance Matmut team with Porsche works drivers Patrick Pilet (France) and Patrick Long (USA) as well as Raymond Narac (France) maintained third place for more than two-thirds of the race distance. On Sunday morning a problem with the power transmission put an end to their promising charge."

There’s an expression in Portuguese that goes: “Trying to hide from the sun by using a sieve.”

Notice that winning is no longer important....only podium finishes.

ed_moree:

Super Darius:

no words..

We need a winning Porsche in GT2,ok don't forget we won the LMP2..but i think GT2 is more important for us..

About a Cayman..well i know it will be the best solution,but i don't think Porsche whant let win a car that is not a 911..also if the 911 maybe can't make better with the engine there

 I don´t think that the GT2 is more important than the LMP2. That´s just if you have a 911 and your friends tomorrow will laugh at you and you will feel bad abot that (anyway I would not care at all about that). Any prototype category is more important than the GT ones, because those cars give the overall victory that is the only one that at the end counts in LeMans. So Porsche, with the new regulations coming from 2011, should build a winning car, but to challenge the overall win not just a lower class win that latter no one will remember very well.

Yes..i tell GT2 is more important for us,becouse of the feed back of who see the race and is not a freak of this kind of race..they know the 430,the Corvette and the 911,yes maybe also the Aston,but  the others specially in LMP1 and 2 are difficult to be "know".

the 911 is a Porsche..for the most a RS Spyder i don't know if is associated directly with Porsche..specially without Porsche decals.

BTW i know prototype category is more important..but for who understand i think..

--
997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

I'm unhappy for Porsche...I thought Audi could win again but that's Racing and Peugeot did a better job

Spyderidol:

There’s an expression in Portuguese that goes: “Trying to hide from the sun by using a sieve.”

Notice that winning is no longer important....only podium finishes.

 

In this race, given all the things that can and will go wrong over a 24 hour period - a podium finish is a win.

...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!

..not for the "old" Porsche.

Latest - Don't expect to see Porsche in LMP1 next year. Audi have commited to returning to Le Mans to win in 2010. (another page of the Audi motorsport book that Wendy needs to read urgently).

This is what awaits us for 2011.

• LMP2 becomes LMP1 in 2011
• With 16x28.5" tyres
• Current LMP1 goes after next year
• New LMP2 with GT2 engines
• With 14X28" tyres
• Both have min weight of 900 kgs
• Hybrid cars are accepted under certain conditions - (from 2010)

Also here are the trap speeds from Thursday practice at Le Mans:

Spyderidol:

..not for the "old" Porsche.

Other manufacturers have finally figured out how to be as reliable and strong as Porsche.

It's a good thing. It'll force Porsche to step their game up even more.

And it's going to be even more competitive for them next year once Corvette bumps down to their class. Aston Martin will most likely join the mix too with the Vantage.

...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!

Aston Martin is already there (in GT2). The #87 Drayson Racing Aston Martin Vantage came in 33 position (ahead of the sole lasting Porsche)

Some consolation and to correct some rumors:

The RSR' S had the fastest race lap times in GT2:

Car # 76 IMSA Performance Porsche 997 RSR did 4:04.118 (Patrick Long)

The next fastest was car #80 Flying Lizards with 4:04.840 (Jorg Bergmeister)

Fastest Ferrari was the #99 JMB Racing with 4:05.072

Spyderidol:

Aston Martin is already there (in GT2). The #87 Drayson Racing Aston Martin Vantage came in 33 position (ahead of the sole lasting Porsche)

 I mean a full Aston Martin team barrage though... 2 or 3 car Factory Works Team instead of a partner team.

I still don't understand why they're getting rid of GT1 though. Perhaps you can explain that for me? I mean GT1 is just such a natural fit for things like the Lambo Murci / Gallardo - DBS - 599 - V10 R8, etc. etc.

...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!

The problem is cost.

The GT1 cars are very far removed from the road version brethren and have become so costly , that most private teams would rather fork out a little more and go prototype racing.

There will be a "new" version of GT1that will compete in a FIA GT WC. I can provide more details if you are interested.

Spyderidol:

 

 

The problem is cost.

The GT1 cars are very far removed from the road version brethren and have become so costly , that most private teams would rather fork out a little more and go prototype racing.

There will be a "new" version of GT1that will compete in a FIA GT WC. I can provide more details if you are interested.

 Also - You will not see "works"teams in any of the classes besides LMP1 as the ACO does not want manufacturers competing  in the "smaller" classes. This is why they had a "problem" with the RS Spyders in LMP2.

 

 

What kind of problem had ACO with Rs Spyder?

The Penske run RS Spyder program was often criticized for really being a "works" effort. (Especially when it was beating the R10 on the tighter ALMS tracks). The ACO  hinted that it was not in the "spirit" of the regulations and then proceeded to apply restrictions on the LMP2 class (read RS Spyder) continuously until it was really struggling to be competitive at the very end.

Of course, what the ACO often forgets is that there is no such thing as the "spirit"of the regulations. They made a set of rules which Porsche exploited to the max (as all good manufacturers do) and built a car that was able to challenge for overall victories.

Later the ACO actually put in the rules that the LMP2 class (along with the GT2 class) are intended for private teams and not manufacturers. the "excuse" is that the manufacturers drive up the cost.

Whilst this is certainly true (and difficult to argue against) I am not sure that real intention behind it was to make sure that the diesles could regularly demonstrate their dominance over petrol. The ACO knew that a manufacturer like Porsche would only race a petrol engined car, and so restricting them to LMP1 would have guaranteed that the diesels would have demolished their entry at every race.

The non-diesel manufacturers, understood this of course, and that is why you have not seen any other manufacturer (except AM) entries in a class reserved for manufacturers during all this time.

The ACO has finally realized the game was up (but they managed to put it off long enough for a diesel Peugeot to win Le Mans), and so in 2011 the rules should be much more balanced.

Until then, expect to see diesel dominance.

thank you  so much for the explaination!

Spyderidol:

 

 

The problem is cost.

The GT1 cars are very far removed from the road version brethren and have become so costly , that most private teams would rather fork out a little more and go prototype racing.

There will be a "new" version of GT1that will compete in a FIA GT WC. I can provide more details if you are interested.

 Also - You will not see "works"teams in any of the classes besides LMP1 as the ACO does not want manufacturers competing  in the "smaller" classes. This is why they had a "problem" with the RS Spyders in LMP2.

 

 

Lay some treats on me. Explain. I'd love to hear what the new GT1 "formula" is supposed to be.

I really think it's bad to not see a GT1 class at LeMans though. Like I said, it's just such a natural fit for the hyper road cars to prove their mettle. I mean I'd love to see a Konessiegg, Murci, DBS, 599, etc. all on the track together.

...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!

The 2010 GT1 World project aims to set up a World Championship title for independent teams, based on the FIA balance of Performance system which has proved so successful in keeping close competition and balanced costs in the GT1 and GT3 categories. A truly global programme aims at 12 events in 12 countries, on five continents. Letters of intent have been received from circuits in Argentina, Australia, Great Britain, Italy, Portugal, Germany, Belgium, Romania, Russia, Bulgaria, South Africa and the United Arab Emirates. The single GT1 class would consist of a maximum of six brands and 24 cars, with two cars per team and two teams per brand. Only full-season entries would be eligible, as is currently the case in GT3. The teams would receive substantial support for the long-distance events. With a general format of two one-hour races per event, a qualifying race and a Championship race, there would be one winner per weekend. However, the continuation of the 24-hour race at Spa would maintain the endurance nature of the cars.

As for the cars, the 2010 technical regulations have been drafted in collaboration with the ACO and approved by the FIA World Motor Sport Council in December, to be applied in the FIA Championships and in the ACO series. The 2010 GT1 cars can be developed by the manufacturers or independent tuners. A compromise between the cost-effective approach successfully developed with GT3, the detailed technical regulations of GT2 and the need to have distinctive cars, 2010 GT1 cars can be specifically built, an evolution of existing GT3 cars or a 2010 GT2 car with a performance kit. - PlanetLeMans

Also from the ACO press conference held at Le Mans this year:

LM GT1 - 2010

• Category open to cars complying with the 2010 FIA GT regulations
• After reception of entries for the 2010 Le Mans 24 Hours, the ACO will decide to maintain the GT1 category (or not) according to well-defined criteria (presence of manufacturers, quality of the entries, reliability guarantees)
• Otherwise, the ACO reserves itself the right to keep only a single GT category in 2010