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    High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    I posted this ongoing on RL but I know some of you guys don't bother going there.....

    I have always been a bit obsessed with intercoolers, something to do with the ridiculous price of the Secan units used by Porsche MS and for tuning by RS Tuning, with a set for the 997tt costing around 15K Euro.

    Many "tuners" offer budget intercoolers, particularly in the US where they can be had for under 2K Euro, I became a little more obsessed comissioned a UK aerospace company who supply F1 teams and Eurofighter to come up with a Secan performer for a fraction of the price - they say it can be done and the resultant cores are currently awaiting end tank fabrication.

    I intend to do some data graphing of before and after results of IAT using a Durametric reader, will keep everyone posted if interested ? 







    Close up of new cores versus Secan:
    New Cores:

    Secan:

     


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    interesting! what about secan by rs tuning?I suppose very reliable products.  how much you can tune the car?


    --
    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Toby, I am pretty dumb when it comes to intercoolers and their benefits.  I know they cool and thereby compress the air which is great for Turbo and Supercharged engines but  are upgraded intercoolers really needed for cars tuned around 10% extra power? 

    I understand that for like 700bhp plus tuned cars then operating heats will probably exceed engine design specifications so upgraded intercoolers are required.  But like in your car's case, you aren't currently anywhere near that surely??


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    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

     

    Alex
    Good questions on a fascinating topic. If you start from: why did Porsche MS commission Secan (aerospace company supplier to Airbus) to build the intercoolers for the 993GT2 race cars to enable them to race with a reliable and maintainable ~630hp when (especially now days) loads of tuners can get 600/700/800 hp using far cheaper intercoolers….
     
    Looking at the 997tt specifically, there are many “tuners” offering their intercoolers which “support” up to 800hp yet RS Tuning say that you can only have 680+hp if you use the 15K Euro Secan units….
     
    Who is wrong and who is right ?
     
    RS Tuning produce engines which carry on making their power under race conditions ie when things are VERY hot, this is not the same as a car built for a 1 mile drag race where the IAT (inlet air temperature) can be kept to within limits for the duration of a ~20 second run.
     
    For road cars RS tuning stuff could be considered overkill but their philosophy is in fact the same as Porsche’s has always been with their road engines hence the myth that Porsche’s always have more hp than advertised, they don’t its just that their hp will still be there on a track day when your TVR, Ford, Merc or whatever will have wilted in the heat.
     
    What actually happens using modern ECUs when the IAT goes up is that the ECU retards the timing in stages which reduces the power, this starts at around 32degC IAT and maximum retard is around 70DegC also the boost will be reduced to bring the IAT back , by 80 DegC the boost may be at 85% of its maximum (for a given rpm in DIN conditions) so at 80DegC 1.2bar at 600rpm will become 1 bar and the timing will be reduced by ~6 degrees , if the IAT carries on going up then the ignition will be cut….
     
    So a more efficient intercooler keeps the ECU using the best possible timing map and boost levels……
     
    The Secan is the gold standard, nothing to date tested has come close and you will notice if you review what is on offer that there is lots of talk of flow rates and end tank efficiency, increased core volume etc but nothing about real cooling performance – IMO the stuff out there for the 997tt which can be had under 3K Euro is at best slightly better than stock but some of the aftermarket units are so heavy and thick that for sure IMO they would heat soak very badly if used for a track day for example.  
     
    Getting back to your question, the 997GT2 does run very high IATs as stock, it has the high 1.4bar boost at the top end which despite the cooling effect of the expansion manifold (I’ve heard the number 15DegC reduction banded around)  still is on the limit of the stock units. Obviously the stock units work well enough to produce the 530PS enabling a 204mph top speed but any ECU tuning is going to trip the IAT over what the stock intercoolers can handle, the effect of which is probably not noticeable (in terms of acceleration) unless the car is tracked, maxed out, used in very high ambient temps.
     
    My plan is to have RS Tuning fit their 600PS kit and optimise the ECU for the additional “ceiling” provided by the better intercoolers…. In raw numbers terms this may mean an additional 10PS DIN on the 600 but practically speaking it means that the 600PS will be there under all conditions….


    -- Apologies in advance to Fritz for bad/inaccurate terminology Smiley 
     


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Thanks for the elaborate information, without consulting the internet what are the main technical differences of Secan over the competitors - materials and manufacturing or do they apply an entirely different concept?


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

     

    Ferdie
    Another excellent question…..
     
    If you read what other (budget) intercooler vendors say they talk a lot about end tank design and flow rate through the core with less restriction etc which obviously is a factor but when you commission one of these aerospace companies to build you one they give you a sheet requesting a massive amount of technical information (I don’t have the sheet as the bulk of the information provided to them was done by an engineer friend) but including temperature ranges, cooling air volume and flow rate through the core, boost air pressure and flow rates and loads of other stuff, some of which has to be almost guessed at.
    They use math to come up with the fin specifications and channelling specifications all within the dimensions of the size available.
     
    What is interesting here is that most of the aftermarket 997tt intercoolers have 12  channels for the boost air and 13 fin channels for the cooling air, the Secan has 14 for boost and 15 for cooling – I was pleasantly surprised to see that my suppliers solution had exactly the same number as the Secan (they had not had sight of any Secan units) soI am hoping that their math came out the same as Secans !!
     
    The fins are hand welded onto the channelling, very meticulous job and I guess the materials used are some aerospace quality ?
     
    In contrast the budget units seem to have decent end tanks (which the vendors promote endlessly ( obviously because they have had quite an input in manufacturing them) but the cores are generic from core manufacturers – some “tuners” say they specify the fin count etc but they all look pretty similar to me !
     
    In terms of price, the budget cores are a sixth the price of the hand made aerospace ones…..

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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    This is what a budget core looks like:


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Sounds very interesting, looking forward to see data logs of these intercoolers


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Great, can't wait for the test results!

     


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    2009 997 GT2, RS T 600


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

     

    Durametric arrived today so I couldn't resist getting some data:

    Ambient temp is 16 to 17 degC (61DegF) IAT during normal off boost type driving was a steady 24DegC (75DegF)
    I charted a blast up to 5500rpm in 5th then dropped to 4th and wrung it out to the limiter at 141mph.
    The maximum IAT in 4th was 46.5degC (114 DegF).

    This is on a relatively cool day so it will be interesting to see what higher ambient temperatures bring.....



    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    TB993tt ,  i did a few runs till 130 mph and the iats where like 59.5 degrees peak , but the ambient air temperature was 38 degrees......

    i am upgraded my turbos next week , so i will plan to do a few runs till 150mph or if possible till 186mph

    will keep you posted :)


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    TTurbine:

    TB993tt ,  i did a few runs till 130 mph and the iats where like 59.5 degrees peak , but the ambient air temperature was 38 degrees......

    i am upgraded my turbos next week , so i will plan to do a few runs till 150mph or if possible till 186mph

    will keep you posted :)

    59.5 is 21.5 above ambient so better than my 4th gear to the red line which was 30 degrees above ambient - if yours does similar then that is neraly 70DegC IAT  -that is very high isn't it, must have a load of timing pull with those numbers....

    Keep the data coming Smiley


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

     

    Which ICs were you using to log this data?


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    porschephile1:

     

    Which ICs were you using to log this data?

    standard


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    I can provide some data on EVOMS ICs if you would like...


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    porschephile1:

    I can provide some data on EVOMS ICs if you would like...

    That would be very interesting since I know they use these units on the big hp 997tts, it would be good to see how effective they are.

    Can you log the IAT (or even just see the maximum reached) for a 4th gear run up from 3000 to 7000rpm and note the ambient temp also ?


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Yes, I will be happy to. Third gear pulls have generally had a temp change of 6-9 degrees C. I will need to do some 4th gear pulls. It is quite hot out now ~ 34 C.


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    TB993tt , i guess the lower iats is due to the smaller vtgs on the 997 tt ??  also my car has the ruf stage 1 package  i guess that upgrading the turbos i would see 30 degrees above ambient since its only a 8.5 degree diffrence , but who knows... i am planning to do a run before and after i upgrade my vgts and i will keep you posted Smiley


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    4th Gear GT700 Excel Chart_5531_image001.gif

    Here is the EVOMS IC data from a 4th gear pull at 28 degrees C. These are upgraded turbos thus may not be an apples to apples comparison.


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Phorschfile

    Thanks for the graph, what car are we here, tt or GT2, can you share exact engine spec ? 23 DegC above ambient for 28DegC day looks pretty good to me.....

    TTurbine, I am not sure that it follows that smaller VTGs have lower IATs, since the bigger VTGs can run in a more efficient zone and give the same power, it is about the balance of things inc boost,timing,VTGs,exhaust,fuelling.timing etc.... and then of course the intercooler has to cool everything down....


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    TB993tt:

    Phorschfile

    Thanks for the graph, what car are we here, tt or GT2, can you share exact engine spec ? 23 DegC above ambient for 28DegC day looks pretty good to me.....

    Sure, its a 996TT EVOMS GT700. It has tial alpha GT-28 based turbos running at 1.5 bar on 103 US octane. The car has an intake, headers, exhaust, upgraded injectors and fuel lines. There are some other goodies as well but those are the majors. I ran a P Box at the same time I logged the IATs. Here that is if anyone interested...4th Gear Data Log Pass.jpg


     


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Finished, should get hold of them early next week


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Those are good looking units Toby! They are not SECANS right? What are they?


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

     ..same time as i will be installing my new ones.. Can t wait to see results Tobby!


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    porschephile1:

    Those are good looking units Toby! They are not SECANS right? What are they?


    They are top secret Smiley

    Made by one of Secan's competitors. Apparently Secan are so busy that if you ordered a set from RS Tuning (for your 15K Euro) it would take best part of 9 months for delivery !

    GT

    Get your Durametric revved up Smiley


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Finished items, I should get hold of them next week.....


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Final testing on stock intercoolers before new units are fitted....

    22-23 Degrees C today so quite warm for the UK, I managed to get the engine nice and hot with quite scary results.

    Check out the crappy excel graph below:

    In summary at 170mph at the limiter in 5th gear saw the IAT at 62.5 degrees C
    this is very high, 40 Deg C above ambient and for sure timing pull so plenty of room for better intercoolers to give some free hp....

    I am hoping for my new ones to come in around 20 degrees C above ambient under same conditions.


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    Toby

    Iam a little hazy on how you perform the above test. Is the time in seconds? Did you really take ~60 sec to get to the top of fourth gear and two minutes to get to the top of fifth? Is this test not hard to repeat exactly how you did it above once you get the new ICs installed? Why not just floor it in each gear so its over faster and readily repeatable?  Lastly, where do you go to perform your testing? It must be really big...


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    porschephile1:

    Toby

    Iam a little hazy on how you perform the above test. Is the time in seconds? Did you really take ~60 sec to get to the top of fourth gear and two minutes to get to the top of fifth? Is this test not hard to repeat exactly how you did it above once you get the new ICs installed? Why not just floor it in each gear so its over faster and readily repeatable?  Lastly, where do you go to perform your testing? It must be really big...

    I do it exactly how you say, just WOT through the gear. I have no idea where the time scale comes from, my excel skills are zero so I just highlight rpm/100 and IAT in excel and create a chart and it comes up with that bottom scale Smiley so the real time say through 5th gear is whatever it takes to go from ~130 to 170mph........

    I have a private test track nearbye Smiley


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: High performance intercooler for tt/GT2

    TB993tt:

    I do it exactly how you say, just WOT through the gear. I have no idea where the time scale comes from, my excel skills are zero so I just highlight rpm/100 and IAT in excel and create a chart and it comes up with that bottom scale Smiley so the real time say through 5th gear is whatever it takes to go from ~130 to 170mph........

    I have a private test track nearbye Smiley

     

     

    That makes alot more sense to me now. Thanks

    I look forward to seeing your data with your new ICs!


     


     
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