Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Mclaren losing their edge? - Page1

May 9, 2004 6:13:13 AM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003

Mclaren losing their edge?

I just finished watching the quals for the Spanish GP, and Mclaren-Mercedes was definently less than competitive. With Coultard finishing 10th, and his teammate 13th,Raiikonnen getting some sort of breakdown at the pre-quals, and McLaren's lack of ability to compete at the other four races, one has to ask: Is this the end for McLaren?

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May 9, 2004 9:16:46 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Its hard to believe they are doing that bad. Not only are their engines breaking down every GP, but they are having chasis setup problems too with sub par handling. I don't think they will be able to recover in this season, the BARs, Ferarris and Williams are too far away perfromance wise. Of the promising youngsters in F1, Button is the luckiest one, but Alonso and Kimi are stuck with non-competitive cars, though Kimi has gotten the worst end of the stick by far, Alonso just needs a decent performing engine. I really feel sorry for Kimi, its not fair

I can imagine the bad vibes around that box right now.

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May 9, 2004 9:16:46 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Its hard to believe they are doing that bad. Not only are their engines breaking down every GP, but they are having chasis setup problems too with sub par handling. I don't think they will be able to recover in this season, the BARs, Ferarris and Williams are too far away perfromance wise. Of the promising youngsters in F1, Button is the luckiest one, but Alonso and Kimi are stuck with non-competitive cars, though Kimi has gotten the worst end of the stick by far, Alonso just needs a decent performing engine. I really feel sorry for Kimi, its not fair

I can imagine the bad vibes around that box right now.

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May 10, 2004 4:12:24 AM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Tough break for kimi, after actually having a shot at the championship.... I honestly thought this may be the year when Michael was dethroned, after reading about the amazing new Merc engine and gearbox, but after seeing this lackluster performance.... It looks like the only thing Mclaren has over the rest of the grid is a fancy paint job.

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May 10, 2004 4:12:24 AM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Tough break for kimi, after actually having a shot at the championship.... I honestly thought this may be the year when Michael was dethroned, after reading about the amazing new Merc engine and gearbox, but after seeing this lackluster performance.... It looks like the only thing Mclaren has over the rest of the grid is a fancy paint job.

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May 10, 2004 8:35:52 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

I find it interesting that McLaren, with all the help from Mercedes and their development capacity/power, isn't capable of keeping up with Ferrari, a Fiat subsidiary.
What brings me to my next point: I think that the Ferrari engineers and workers really LOVE what they're doing. And as always...if you love what you're doing, you're doing a great job.

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May 10, 2004 8:35:52 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

I find it interesting that McLaren, with all the help from Mercedes and their development capacity/power, isn't capable of keeping up with Ferrari, a Fiat subsidiary.
What brings me to my next point: I think that the Ferrari engineers and workers really LOVE what they're doing. And as always...if you love what you're doing, you're doing a great job.

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May 10, 2004 8:41:16 AM

farina: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 437, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 4, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

RC wrote:
And as always...if you love what you're doing, you're doing a great job.

All i can say is ... that's it!

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May 10, 2004 8:41:16 AM

farina: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 437, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 4, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

RC wrote:
And as always...if you love what you're doing, you're doing a great job.

All i can say is ... that's it!

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May 10, 2004 4:31:50 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: farina

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

If you are engineering for Mercedes F1 efforts , you are probably working your way up the tall corporate DaimlerChrysler ladder with it's broad and interesting product portfolio . If you are doing the same for FIAT, ( i.e., Ferrari F1 )- do you want to leave to work on the next Punto or urban bus or garbage truck ? I can see the difference in the passion thing .

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May 10, 2004 4:31:50 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: farina

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

If you are engineering for Mercedes F1 efforts , you are probably working your way up the tall corporate DaimlerChrysler ladder with it's broad and interesting product portfolio . If you are doing the same for FIAT, ( i.e., Ferrari F1 )- do you want to leave to work on the next Punto or urban bus or garbage truck ? I can see the difference in the passion thing .

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May 10, 2004 8:10:34 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MKW

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Quote:
MKW said:
If you are engineering for Mercedes F1 efforts , you are probably working your way up the tall corporate DaimlerChrysler ladder with it's broad and interesting product portfolio . If you are doing the same for FIAT, ( i.e., Ferrari F1 )- do you want to leave to work on the next Punto or urban bus or garbage truck ? I can see the difference in the passion thing .

It doesn't quite work like that. The engineers who work for the UK-based McLaren F1 team will generally be a different "breed" to the ones who work on production cars at DC in Germany. Most of the F1 guys will never have worked for a "real" car company, and would probably only consider doing so as a last resort!

Apart from the possible (occasional) use of DC technical facilities for test and development work on behalf of the F1 effort, there is probably not much interchange of staff or know-how between the two faculties. The culture gap would be too large to bridge effectively.

This is also one of the reasons why companies like BMW and Renault run their top-notch racing facilities as independent units, separate from the main company structure.

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May 10, 2004 8:10:34 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MKW

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Quote:
MKW said:
If you are engineering for Mercedes F1 efforts , you are probably working your way up the tall corporate DaimlerChrysler ladder with it's broad and interesting product portfolio . If you are doing the same for FIAT, ( i.e., Ferrari F1 )- do you want to leave to work on the next Punto or urban bus or garbage truck ? I can see the difference in the passion thing .

It doesn't quite work like that. The engineers who work for the UK-based McLaren F1 team will generally be a different "breed" to the ones who work on production cars at DC in Germany. Most of the F1 guys will never have worked for a "real" car company, and would probably only consider doing so as a last resort!

Apart from the possible (occasional) use of DC technical facilities for test and development work on behalf of the F1 effort, there is probably not much interchange of staff or know-how between the two faculties. The culture gap would be too large to bridge effectively.

This is also one of the reasons why companies like BMW and Renault run their top-notch racing facilities as independent units, separate from the main company structure.

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May 11, 2004 2:30:08 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

I was referring more to the German engine team. McLaren is the chassis/aero side of the team.

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May 11, 2004 2:30:08 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

I was referring more to the German engine team. McLaren is the chassis/aero side of the team.

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May 11, 2004 7:32:03 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MKW

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Quote:
MKW said:
I was referring more to the German engine team. McLaren is the chassis/aero side of the team.

If my information is correct, the development of the engine, formerly the responsibility of the Ilmor subsidiary company in the UK, has now been taken in-house (that is, it is now done in Germany). The engines are actually built (and maybe rebuilt - if that still is worth doing) by Ilmor in the UK. Sounds like a recipe for disaster - just imagine the opportunities for passing the buck back and fore when things go wrong. Which they have been this season.

I'm guessing - admittedly, at a distance - that my take of the difference in cultures between the people developing the engines at the factory and the people running the racing cars at the track will be quite large, at the expense of effective communication and efficient solution of problems. And nobody is denying that there are problems.

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May 11, 2004 7:32:03 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MKW

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Quote:
MKW said:
I was referring more to the German engine team. McLaren is the chassis/aero side of the team.

If my information is correct, the development of the engine, formerly the responsibility of the Ilmor subsidiary company in the UK, has now been taken in-house (that is, it is now done in Germany). The engines are actually built (and maybe rebuilt - if that still is worth doing) by Ilmor in the UK. Sounds like a recipe for disaster - just imagine the opportunities for passing the buck back and fore when things go wrong. Which they have been this season.

I'm guessing - admittedly, at a distance - that my take of the difference in cultures between the people developing the engines at the factory and the people running the racing cars at the track will be quite large, at the expense of effective communication and efficient solution of problems. And nobody is denying that there are problems.

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May 11, 2004 11:37:57 PM

Bilal: Expert; Loc: Manchester, UK; Posts: 1533, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

I've brought up this point before, and I stand by my statements. The best made cars come from Germany. It is no surprise then if the engines are manufactured by Ilmor then reliability is not always guaranteed.

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May 11, 2004 11:37:57 PM

Bilal: Expert; Loc: Manchester, UK; Posts: 1533, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

I've brought up this point before, and I stand by my statements. The best made cars come from Germany. It is no surprise then if the engines are manufactured by Ilmor then reliability is not always guaranteed.

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May 12, 2004 7:28:00 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Bilal

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
I've brought up this point before, and I stand by my statements. The best made cars come from Germany. It is no surprise then if the engines are manufactured by Ilmor then reliability is not always guaranteed.

It is surprising that german engineers, considering the overall mentality and economics frustration in Germany, are still capable of developping some great cars.
But if the german public and especially politicians don't induce some serious changes regarding the economy, I'm afraid our car industry will go down the drain sooner or later.

The only solution can be cutting ALL subventions/aids and at the same time massively lowering taxes (same tax level for everybody might even favor the creation of new private little businesses). This is the only way out of the crisis. I hope our politicians start to understand it. Because the german car industry is at a point where they have to ask themselves: do I stay in Germany or do I move my production capacities outside Germany. And as soon as this happens, development capacities will follow. Look at the software industry...a lot of international companies use Indian and Israeli companies for development. It is a shame that incompetent politicians destroy our industry and development capacity.

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May 12, 2004 7:28:00 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Bilal

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
I've brought up this point before, and I stand by my statements. The best made cars come from Germany. It is no surprise then if the engines are manufactured by Ilmor then reliability is not always guaranteed.

It is surprising that german engineers, considering the overall mentality and economics frustration in Germany, are still capable of developping some great cars.
But if the german public and especially politicians don't induce some serious changes regarding the economy, I'm afraid our car industry will go down the drain sooner or later.

The only solution can be cutting ALL subventions/aids and at the same time massively lowering taxes (same tax level for everybody might even favor the creation of new private little businesses). This is the only way out of the crisis. I hope our politicians start to understand it. Because the german car industry is at a point where they have to ask themselves: do I stay in Germany or do I move my production capacities outside Germany. And as soon as this happens, development capacities will follow. Look at the software industry...a lot of international companies use Indian and Israeli companies for development. It is a shame that incompetent politicians destroy our industry and development capacity.

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Threads

May 12, 2004 8:20:49 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Rc, those economical measures that germany (and france) need are very un-popular (b/s some people/voters are clueless and can only think in the short term) so they are hesitant because they will loose votes and most polititians (not all) that is all they care for

I heard VW is moving production to china now, but Porsche howevere is just finishing the enlargement Leipzig plant

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May 12, 2004 8:20:49 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mclaren losing their edge?

Rc, those economical measures that germany (and france) need are very un-popular (b/s some people/voters are clueless and can only think in the short term) so they are hesitant because they will loose votes and most polititians (not all) that is all they care for

I heard VW is moving production to china now, but Porsche howevere is just finishing the enlargement Leipzig plant

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