Jan 2, 2006 6:28:07 AM
- silverrules
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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo
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Jan 2, 2006 7:04:58 AM
- Silver Bullet
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Jan 2, 2006 7:08:01 AM
- JimFlat6
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Jan 2, 2006 7:31:59 AM
- Grant
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
silverrules said:
Road and Track reported 997S does 0 to 60mph in 3.9S and from rumors we have seen 997TT will be 3.7S. If 997TT #'s hold true, I dont see a huge imporvemnt over 997S. Am I missing something?
Wonder what is 0 to 60mph for 997S with X51 package?
Try comparing the 0-125mph times.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Try comparing 125mph to 170mph times.
Yes,
And 60-125 times.
And ease of power and torque gains with simple mods., since one has the turbochargers to play with (to increase boost over stock)-even with VTG, this will still be feasible-the 997TT test mules were driving around with 600HP potential-it's just a matter of programming the engine to operate that high.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
FSU-997S said:
Isn't the TT number a factory published number, and the street number will be less?
1. I NEVER saw a 997 Carrera S doing 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds. This would be something around 0-100 kph in 4.2 seconds. Impossible.
2. All 997 Carrera S reviews I read in various car magazines showed a 0-62 mph time of 4.6-4.7 seconds. I think this would translate into 4.3-4.4 from 0-60 mph.
3. The 3.7 time for the 997 Turbo was actually a 0-62 (100 kph) time and it wasn't published by Porsche or any official source, it was mentioned by people as a rumor or something they saw on an official FYEO document from Porsche.
So let's just wait until the 997 Turbo is "official" and then we'll have enough time to discuss performance figures.
Only one hint: from 0-125 mph, the best 997 Carrera S figure I saw was 16.1 seconds. The "old" 996 Turbo S was already almost 3 seconds faster. And the new 997 Turbo is rumored to be slightly faster than the 996 Turbo S.
Let's wait and see.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
I can clearly remember the test with 997S hitting 60mph in 3.9s. They supposedly had an extremely good start and furthermore they claimed the car had been broken in very well. They also thought Porsche had given it some non-standard power hike to get better times so as to impress but dyno show they had not.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
3.9s seems to be out of this world for a 997S. Even a 996TurboS with 450BHP is at 4.0/4.1 sec.
You need more than a good start or well running 997s-engine to achieve results in the sub-4sec realm...
Tenth of seconds mean a lot around 4 secs. That's why the rumored 3,7sec on 0...100 kph for the new 997TT would be such a great achievement by any means (Tiptronic, PDK, whatever).
You need more than a good start or well running 997s-engine to achieve results in the sub-4sec realm...
Tenth of seconds mean a lot around 4 secs. That's why the rumored 3,7sec on 0...100 kph for the new 997TT would be such a great achievement by any means (Tiptronic, PDK, whatever).
Re: 997S vs 997TT
3.7 sec. from 0-100 kph would open a new chapter in 911 Turbo development. Remember: 3.7 sec. is the Carrera GT time. IF Porsche offers a 997 Turbo (base version) with 0-100 kph in 3.7, 0-200 kph in 11 seconds and 0-300 kph in 28 seconds with a top speed of 320 kph, this car would sell like vanilla ice cream on a hot summer day.
But I'd be happy with 0-100 kph in 3.7 sec., 0-200 kph in 12 sec. and 0-300 kph in 35 sec. and a top speed of 315 kph too.
IF Porsche offers a 997 Turbo (base version) with 0-100 kph in 3.7, 0-200 kph in 11 seconds and 0-300 kph in 28 seconds with a top speed of 320 kph, this car would sell like vanilla ice cream on a hot summer day.But I'd be happy with 0-100 kph in 3.7 sec., 0-200 kph in 12 sec. and 0-300 kph in 35 sec. and a top speed of 315 kph too.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
That is exactly my point. 3.7 sec for the 997TT are incredibly good.
(3.9 for a normal 997S is so far out of possibility...)
The VTG seems to be great. I heard mid of last year how excited everyone at Porsche is about the VTG development by Borg Warner. The torque curve is almost linear from early on...
They were so happy that they wanted the identical VTG module available for all cars including future Boxsters/Caymans. Unfortunately, this is not possible as engine geometry is too different.
(3.9 for a normal 997S is so far out of possibility...)
The VTG seems to be great. I heard mid of last year how excited everyone at Porsche is about the VTG development by Borg Warner. The torque curve is almost linear from early on...
They were so happy that they wanted the identical VTG module available for all cars including future Boxsters/Caymans. Unfortunately, this is not possible as engine geometry is too different.
Jan 2, 2006 6:10:00 PM
- silverrules
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Hey Jim, you are right. I have made my share of mistakes on my many purchases and have learned in the process and unless if I don't know everything about my purchase I will not buy it, specially if the difference is only 0.2 seconds compared to what I already have. Sometimes we get emotional with our purchase and write the check blindly. I will have to do a lot of convincing to myself before writing the check for $150K or more for 0.2second faster car. As RC said we will have to wait and see but unless if someone can prove Road and Track wrong I believe what they reported on their 997S test run 3.9sec. Maybe Carlos can do some test for us with his 997S and prove the 3.9 seconds is correct on 997S and save us $150K That would be awesome..
That would be awesome..
Jan 2, 2006 7:44:10 PM
- OCEAN
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Juat pick up one of these for your 997S
http://www.andale.com/stores/sf_home.jsp?mode=1&sfUrl=turbosoundfxstore
http://www.andale.com/stores/sf_home.jsp?mode=1&sfUrl=turbosoundfxstore
Jan 2, 2006 8:18:36 PM
- Hurst
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
silverrules said:
Road and Track reported 997S does 0 to 60mph in 3.9S and from rumors we have seen 997TT will be 3.7S. If 997TT #'s hold true, I dont see a huge imporvemnt over 997S. Am I missing something?
Wonder what is 0 to 60mph for 997S with X51 package?
I remember when they came up with those 3.9 times. A lot of people claimed that they burned the clutch out on tests like that/juiced car (dyno did not confirm)/improper reporting...
The fact is that those numbers may be able to be achieved with a 997s, but not on a standardized scale. And if they are, the car is not going to take it very well. You will see much more performance from the TT, even though its becoming a bourgeois fat-cat ride.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Road & track did 0-60 in 3.9 seconds with the 997S, for those of you that are none believers please check it out for yourselves:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=1949§ion_id=31&page_number=8
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=1949§ion_id=31&page_number=8
Re: 997S vs 997TT
although I agree 3.9 is unlikely, R&T did publish these numbers again in "fun factor"
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=2489&page_number=10
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=2489&page_number=10
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
edz61 said:
Road & track did 0-60 in 3.9 seconds with the 997S, for those of you that are none believers please check it out for yourselves:
If I am not mistaken, R&T has a long tradition of publishing .... erm, "sporty"
0 - 60 mph acceleration times.If I were a cynic, I'd probably say that they seem to help sell auto mags in the USA.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
The 0-60 times of 997S varies between 3.9 to 4.2 seconds (according to Road and Track, Car and Driver and Motor Trend). Even if most people do not believe in the 3.9 figure, I think 4.2 is still very impressive for a 355hp 997S.
The 0-60 time of 997TT should be around 3.5 to 3.7 seconds.
The question to us 997S owners is whether or not we can justify the price difference of around US $70 to 80K plus our 997S trade in for the performance gain.
I personally cannot justify this upgrade as I do not need the TT power yet. Instead I will spend a few years upgrading my driving skill first...
The 0-60 time of 997TT should be around 3.5 to 3.7 seconds.
The question to us 997S owners is whether or not we can justify the price difference of around US $70 to 80K plus our 997S trade in for the performance gain.
I personally cannot justify this upgrade as I do not need the TT power yet. Instead I will spend a few years upgrading my driving skill first...
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Guys guys guys, who gives a crap if it's 3.9, or 4.4 or whatever. We are all on the same side here. 997S is a fast and fun car regardless of the numbers. Targa Tim does have a point, the 997TT will be a hell of car but not $70K better than 997S. You can have a 2nd nice car in your garage for that price. Again we all love cars that's why we are here. We are all entitled to our opinion, that's what the forum is all about. We are here to learn from each other not compare egos, right? With that said go ahead knock the car magazines all you want, I seriously doubt that they can be that dumb, writing false reports and not correct it later.
Jan 3, 2006 5:52:50 AM
- silverrules
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Looks like this touched some member's nerve comparing the timing of our beloved car to the upcoming TT. There is no reason to get personal and believe me if I want the sound of the turbo, I will buy one and add it to my collections. The only reason I posted this is to see if anybody else had thought about the same issue. Juts imagine you buy the upcoming turbo and your neighbor tells you that Road and Track report shows 997S is only 0.2 second slower than your Turbo and ask you how did you justify spending this much more on a turbo. It's probably better to resolve these concerns now than later but hey it's your money and you can do what you want with it. Either way, Turbo or non Turbo enjoy the ride
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
edz61 said:
Road & track did 0-60 in 3.9 seconds with the 997S, for those of you that are none believers please check it out for yourselves:
If I am not mistaken, R&T has a long tradition of publishing .... erm, "sporty"
If I were a cynic, I'd probably say that they seem to help sell auto mags in the USA.
Fritz, sorry but you are mistaken about Road&Track. R$T has for decades consistently published slower 0-60mph times than Car&Driver and Motor Trend. They even have a checklist of excuses compiled and ready to insert into their auto testing articles.
"Too dusty, Too hot ambient temperature, tired clutch, poor track surface, unfamiliar with launching a 911, "our testers were careful", "tested at alternate venue without all of out usual data testing gear" etc.. Their writers are either very inexperienced or very old, but always boring. Too many laments about cup holders and hunting for Lexus like quietness. They should just call it "Road and Geezer" 
But who cares if the 997S 0-60 time is close to a 997TT.
It doesnt really matter. Their all plenty quick enough to 60 anyway. 997TT's are about what happens after the boring 60mph. 
For Porsche and TT buyers what matters is accelleration after 100mph. RC said the USA spec 997TT has a 225mph speedometer. It maybe likely that the 997TT will top out at 200 or 205 mph. Academic to some, tempting to others!
But noticeably faster than a X51 997S!
A 200mph top speed maybe very telling as to Porsche's aerodynamic tweaking of the TT, its braking ability and its engines' power curve. The VTG 997TT may provide more torque at lower RPMs and also over all than any other flat six turbo street car Porsche ever made.
Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
OCEAN said:
Juat pick up one of these for your 997S
http://www.andale.com/stores/sf_home.jsp?mode=1&sfUrl=turbosoundfxstore
Very funny....then all you need is a large rear wing and neon lights under the door sills and you're ready to "race"...
Jan 3, 2006 8:31:38 PM
- Crash
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
silverrules said:
Looks like this touched some member's nerve comparing the timing of our beloved car to the upcoming TT. There is no reason to get personal and believe me if I want the sound of the turbo, I will buy one and add it to my collections. The only reason I posted this is to see if anybody else had thought about the same issue. Juts imagine you buy the upcoming turbo and your neighbor tells you that Road and Track report shows 997S is only 0.2 second slower than your Turbo and ask you how did you justify spending this much more on a turbo. It's probably better to resolve these concerns now than later but hey it's your money and you can do what you want with it. Either way, Turbo or non Turbo enjoy the ride
If 0-60 is the only important figure to you, you've bought the wrong car. Acceleration to 60 is largely grip limited nowadays. The Veyron with over 1000 bhp, all-wheel-drive and monstrously wide tyres has only managed 2.5 seconds. What matters are 60-125 mph figures, where your 997S will be left in the dust, wondering what the hell just happened.
Jan 4, 2006 5:39:06 AM
- silverrules
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Jan 4, 2006 11:37:19 AM
- Crash
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
silverrules said:
What matters are 60-125 mph figures, where your 997S will be left in the dust, wondering what the hell just happened.
If if pay $50K more than my 997S, it better do alot better than 0.2 second. I dont care about 60 to 125mph due to speed limit, jail and my insurance.
You've bought the wrong car.
Jan 4, 2006 2:38:14 PM
- edz
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Silverrules: I am with you all the way, who cares about 60-125 mph unless your are in Germany. 997S is plenty fast. I will ceratainly check out the 997TT but not sure yet if I buy one. There was a huge difference between the 996 and 996TT. I have had both and in all honesty the 996 was a bit too slow for me so I could justify buying the 996TT. Now the 997S is a different story and has plenty to offer satisfy my needs at this time until I drive th 997TT.
Jan 4, 2006 3:36:33 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Crash, you nailed it. 0-60 in these high-power cars is extremely traction and clutch-clamping-power limited, and it's a returded teen-age kid's streetlight-to-streetlight measuring stick.
Silverrules, the reason R&T was able to pound a 3.9 0-60 run was a combination of big fat tires, a mind-bendingly high-rpm-clutch-and-driveline-abusing clutch drop (that you wouldn't be able to repeat often without something in the driveline going up in an explosion of glory), and the fact that the motor in a 911 sits over the damn rear wheels.
Comparing 0-60 times on these cars is like discussing whether Carl Lewis or Michael Johnson is faster to the 5-foot mark....Pretty ridiculous
This is my favorite rant/pet peeve. People so "addicted" to 0-60 times from years of bench-racing with magazines, when they mean so little when you climb up the horsepower ranks and start spinning tires and smoking clutches.
If you're running 0-60 races on the street, then you're just wasting fuel and fatiguing parts to prove nothing, because ANYTHING that's got a set of cojones under the hood spends the first two gears negotiating with it's tires for traction. Except for 911's of course, because they've got that hunk of metal sitting out back keeping things planted. Maybe it's just me, but I get little satisfaction out of winning a race solely on grip. It's kinda like winning a footrace against a guy who's much faster than you, but he tripped... You just wind up looking like the slow-but-lucky guy, and a real goof if you actually gloat about the win.
The 997S vs. 997TT isn't a 0-60 discussion though. Who cares if you can stick with a twin-turbo up to 60 mph, when he proceeds to then leave you like a stumbling Bassett Hound trying to chase a cat, do you take satisfaction that you leapt and almost got his tail before he kicked dust in your face and left you panting??
0-60.... Ughhhh.......The race of ricers....The litmus of slow cars....
Silverrules, the reason R&T was able to pound a 3.9 0-60 run was a combination of big fat tires, a mind-bendingly high-rpm-clutch-and-driveline-abusing clutch drop (that you wouldn't be able to repeat often without something in the driveline going up in an explosion of glory), and the fact that the motor in a 911 sits over the damn rear wheels.
Comparing 0-60 times on these cars is like discussing whether Carl Lewis or Michael Johnson is faster to the 5-foot mark....Pretty ridiculous
This is my favorite rant/pet peeve. People so "addicted" to 0-60 times from years of bench-racing with magazines, when they mean so little when you climb up the horsepower ranks and start spinning tires and smoking clutches.
If you're running 0-60 races on the street, then you're just wasting fuel and fatiguing parts to prove nothing, because ANYTHING that's got a set of cojones under the hood spends the first two gears negotiating with it's tires for traction. Except for 911's of course, because they've got that hunk of metal sitting out back keeping things planted. Maybe it's just me, but I get little satisfaction out of winning a race solely on grip. It's kinda like winning a footrace against a guy who's much faster than you, but he tripped... You just wind up looking like the slow-but-lucky guy, and a real goof if you actually gloat about the win.
The 997S vs. 997TT isn't a 0-60 discussion though. Who cares if you can stick with a twin-turbo up to 60 mph, when he proceeds to then leave you like a stumbling Bassett Hound trying to chase a cat, do you take satisfaction that you leapt and almost got his tail before he kicked dust in your face and left you panting??
0-60.... Ughhhh.......The race of ricers....The litmus of slow cars....
Jan 4, 2006 6:34:31 PM
- Crash
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Crash, you nailed it. 0-60 in these high-power cars is extremely traction and clutch-clamping-power limited, and it's a returded teen-age kid's streetlight-to-streetlight measuring stick.
Silverrules, the reason R&T was able to pound a 3.9 0-60 run was a combination of big fat tires, a mind-bendingly high-rpm-clutch-and-driveline-abusing clutch drop (that you wouldn't be able to repeat often without something in the driveline going up in an explosion of glory), and the fact that the motor in a 911 sits over the damn rear wheels.
Comparing 0-60 times on these cars is like discussing whether Carl Lewis or Michael Johnson is faster to the 5-foot mark....Pretty ridiculous
This is my favorite rant/pet peeve. People so "addicted" to 0-60 times from years of bench-racing with magazines, when they mean so little when you climb up the horsepower ranks and start spinning tires and smoking clutches.
If you're running 0-60 races on the street, then you're just wasting fuel and fatiguing parts to prove nothing, because ANYTHING that's got a set of cojones under the hood spends the first two gears negotiating with it's tires for traction. Except for 911's of course, because they've got that hunk of metal sitting out back keeping things planted. Maybe it's just me, but I get little satisfaction out of winning a race solely on grip. It's kinda like winning a footrace against a guy who's much faster than you, but he tripped... You just wind up looking like the slow-but-lucky guy, and a real goof if you actually gloat about the win.
The 997S vs. 997TT isn't a 0-60 discussion though. Who cares if you can stick with a twin-turbo up to 60 mph, when he proceeds to then leave you like a stumbling Bassett Hound trying to chase a cat, do you take satisfaction that you leapt and almost got his tail before he kicked dust in your face and left you panting??
0-60.... Ughhhh.......The race of ricers....The litmus of slow cars....
Jan 4, 2006 6:45:07 PM
- 964C2
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Re: 997S vs 997TT
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Crash, you nailed it. 0-60 in these high-power cars is extremely traction and clutch-clamping-power limited, and it's a returded teen-age kid's streetlight-to-streetlight measuring stick.
Silverrules, the reason R&T was able to pound a 3.9 0-60 run was a combination of big fat tires, a mind-bendingly high-rpm-clutch-and-driveline-abusing clutch drop (that you wouldn't be able to repeat often without something in the driveline going up in an explosion of glory), and the fact that the motor in a 911 sits over the damn rear wheels.
Comparing 0-60 times on these cars is like discussing whether Carl Lewis or Michael Johnson is faster to the 5-foot mark....Pretty ridiculous
This is my favorite rant/pet peeve. People so "addicted" to 0-60 times from years of bench-racing with magazines, when they mean so little when you climb up the horsepower ranks and start spinning tires and smoking clutches.
If you're running 0-60 races on the street, then you're just wasting fuel and fatiguing parts to prove nothing, because ANYTHING that's got a set of cojones under the hood spends the first two gears negotiating with it's tires for traction. Except for 911's of course, because they've got that hunk of metal sitting out back keeping things planted. Maybe it's just me, but I get little satisfaction out of winning a race solely on grip. It's kinda like winning a footrace against a guy who's much faster than you, but he tripped... You just wind up looking like the slow-but-lucky guy, and a real goof if you actually gloat about the win.
The 997S vs. 997TT isn't a 0-60 discussion though. Who cares if you can stick with a twin-turbo up to 60 mph, when he proceeds to then leave you like a stumbling Bassett Hound trying to chase a cat, do you take satisfaction that you leapt and almost got his tail before he kicked dust in your face and left you panting??
0-60.... Ughhhh.......The race of ricers....The litmus of slow cars....
Right on.....it's much more interesting, for example, to see 40 to 80MPH times which you can actually use on the road.
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