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    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    It doesn't surprise me that a street car needs replacement, at great cost, of a major system to become track worthy. The best manufacturers in the world produce pure race cars that are clunkers and need great development to be competitive; some models simply must be discarded.

    Do the manufacturers tease us with performance figures and on track comparisons? Of course - and pretty girls, and anything else that works. We buy it all.

    IMO, when you track a car, all bets are off. As RC says, I'm not aware of any manufacturer providing a warranty for a race car. After the money changes hands, you are dependent on good will and solvency (Heaven help you) for post purchase assistance.

    Spending too much money to convert a street 911 to a pure track car (for US club racing) taught me that, no matter what anyone tells you, your street car is not a race car, or really even close. Having bought too many race cars, I have learned that, no matter what anyone tells you, it almost certainly will require a large investment of time and money to make it work right.

    If the PCCB does not perform properly on the street, then Porsche should fix it. If it doesn't work on the track, well ....

    Before you flame me, consider that I am expecting delivery in February of a Challenge Stradale with carbon ceramic brakes. If the Stradale CCB don't work efficiently and cost-effectively on the track, I'll be bitterly disappointed. If, on the other hand, the CCBs work great, but require frequent and Ferraristically expensive replacement, that's life. Notwithstanding the advertising, I do not think it is reasonable to expect any street car to perform optimally or even reliably on the track without expensive modification and development. I speak from unhappy personal experience.

    Now I'm off to buy some Fosters.

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    WCH,

    Thanks for your post on this subject. It was like a breath of fresh air after some of the things we have had to read!
    Cheers!

    fritz

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Quote:
    If the PCCB does not perform properly on the street, then Porsche should fix it. If it doesn't work on the track, well ....



    The PCCB works pretty well on the street, even if it needs some temperature to achieve best results.
    I have to agree with you on replacement/maintenance cost. You can't blame a manufacturer if a brake isn't "track worthy". Actually which brake is "track worthy"? Even the beloved 380 mm steel discs need replacement after some tough track runs.
    Right now, the PCCB is at the beginning of development, it is a pretty new product. For the street at least as good as the steel brake and you get some nice yellow brake calipers with it too.
    I talked to many people who considered buying the PCCB and most of them mentioned they want to buy the PCCB because of shorter braking distance (which the PCCB does not provide) and looks(!). That said, I think people should inform themselves a little bit better before buying a certain product and I also think that the PCCB will be a very nice piece of braking technology if it gets some more time for development, including tire and ABS/PSM controlling development too (for shorter braking distances for example).

    BTW: a little birdie told me that Porsche is planning to offer the PCCB for the Cayenne too.

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Quote:
    BTW: a little birdie told me that Porsche is planning to offer the PCCB for the Cayenne too.



    Oh Please! Give me a break! That's really what we need in an off-roading vehicle: ceramic brakes!? How long is that going to last on the sorts of trails I like to drive on?

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty


    PCCB brakes for the Cayenne ..... will not be designed to go off-road but for those who want to bring it to the race track....and go after the GT3-RS or the GT2 ....

    By the way, is the PCCB sensitive to dust and mud... because the Cayenne Turbo doesn't have drilled rotors because of that .... so I was just wondering.

    PCCB on on the street

    Quote:
    The PCCB works pretty well on the street, even if it needs some temperature to achieve best results.



    Don't agree. I really don't like the feel of them on the street. I hate the way the peddle will go almost to the floor in an emergency stop. In fact, I generally don't like the feel and don't like them.

    Some of the worst damage I've done to the PCCB's has been under street conditions.

    Quote:
    You can't blame a manufacturer if a brake isn't "track worthy".



    You can if they sell the product as being track worthy when it is not.

    Quote:
    Right now, the PCCB is at the beginning of development, it is a pretty new product. For the street at least as good as the steel brake and you get some nice yellow brake calipers with it too.... I also think that the PCCB will be a very nice piece of braking technology if it gets some more time for development, including tire and ABS/PSM controlling development too (for shorter braking distances for example).



    My personal opinion after using them for 60,000 km is that they are not "at least as good as the steel brake" on the street.

    I do think that PCCB's hold promise though. It is unfortunate that Porsche's premature introduction of them has given them such a bad reputation.

    Personally, I don't think the PCCB's will be made to work well until they change the way that they are trying to use them. Right now, PAG is trying to use them as a direct substitute for cast iron brake rotors. They are not. They are more akin to a carbon/carbon race set-up which requires tons of cooling air. Until Porsche redesigns their cars to provide racing quantities of direct cooling air, these brakes will not work. That's my opinion at least.

    Quote:
    a little birdie told me that Porsche is planning to offer the PCCB for the Cayenne too.



    I'm with GM on this ... "Oh Please! Give me a break!

    Stephen

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Quote:

    By the way, is the PCCB sensitive to dust and mud... because the Cayenne Turbo doesn't have drilled rotors because of that .... so I was just wondering.



    I'm not sure the PCCB has to have drilled rotors by definition. You can get make ceramic composite discs without holes.
    I agree that the PCCB would be a strange option to have on the Cayenne but we shouldn't forget one thing: if there are people ready to pay for it, why not?

    Re: PCCB on on the street

    Stephan, I agree with you and I think everything you have written is rational and reasonable.

    WCH - It seems to me that you are twisting the issue and I don't know why. It is well known and accepted that many Pcar buyers buy them for DE events, and P designs them and advertises them for this use (they have their own DE schools for gods sake!). The problem Stephan has is he was told his brakes were superior to the steel ("300k miles", "life of the car", ... to the tune of >$10k), and they appear to be inferior to steel on the track.

    Many others have stated similar problems with the brakes so I don't believe he is a wacko although still others have said they have no problems. Now, knowing how differently individuals drive their cars at DE events, it may be that those who have not had problems are not driving their cars hard, or that the braking requirements are not high for those tracks.

    WCH - We are not talking a full blown race car, simply tracking days so your race car conversion argument, while true, is irrelevant in this case.

    Re: PCCB on on the street

    Quote:
    I really don't like the feel of them on the street. I hate the way the peddle will go almost to the floor in an emergency stop. In fact, I generally don't like the feel and don't like them.




    Stephen:
    Obviously, there is something wrong with your PCCB setup -- could there have been a problem with the original dealer installed retrofit of these brakes? I hope Porsche takes care of your problems.

    My personal experience has been that the PCCB's have worked great on the street -- very firm pedal in all types of braking situations. Also, in back to back comparisons with my previous car (996TT) which my son now owns, it's clear that the PCCB's feel better and are more confidence inspiring than the Big Reds. BTW, the brakes have also worked well at the few DE events I've attended.

    Just my 2 cents and probably worth less than that.

    Re: PCCB on on the street

    colorchange:

    Hello! I appreciate your comments, and think I understand what you are saying.

    I don't mean to twist the issues, and I certainly do not think Stephen is a wacko; he clearly is disappointed in the PCCBs, for which he paid a great sum. I hope I will not be similarly disappointed in the Ferrari version.

    None of my comments are intended to address street use. It appears you and I disagree about track use - ok. I drive my cars hard on track days, close to but not at my limit for safety and cost reasons. Typical stock characteristics such as frustrating levels of understeer quickly become evident. Other unfortunate characteristics, such as overheating of the brakes, oil starvation, etc, also may surface.

    Here's what Porsche now says about ceramic brakes on its North America/US website:

    "With its major weight savings and exceptional fade resistance, even at very high temperatures, PCCB is the ideal option for genuine competition use. It is important to note, however, that circuit racing or similar extreme driving conditions can significantly reduce the overall life expectancy of even the most durable pads and discs. It is therefore important - as with conventional steel high-performance brakes - to have all PCCB components properly checked and replaced, if necessary, after every track event."

    I don't know how the PCCB were sold to anyone, but what Porsche say here seems to me to make sense. I assume Porsche takes the position that track use voids or may void their warranty. If you claim that Porsche warrants its cars for track use, what does that warranty cover? For how long? Should the brakes last x sessions? X heat cycles?

    Again, I believe that when you track a car, all bets are off. Perhaps my view about liability or responsibility, which comes from a few years spent in amateur and semi-pro racing - nothing very fancy, mind you - seems to you overly harsh or unfair. But my sense of how the game is played is that there are no warranties, period, for whatever happens on a racetrack. If a bit doesn't work, a well intentioned manufacturer that can afford to do so will try to help you. But the event disclaimer, the track disclaimer, the disclaimers on all the harnesses and suits and tire stickers and everywhere else all make the same (to me common sense) point: when you pull out of the pits, you put yourself and your car in harm's way, and whatever happens is down to you. I like it that way, and would hate for it to change.

    I also feel that, if you track a car, you need to fully understand and follow break in protocols and inspection and replacement intervals - something that admittedly is hard for a wannabe like me to do, especially on a new model. You also need to understand use parameters - if I left foot brake aggressively and that builds up heat which disintegrates my brakes in four 20 minute sessions, is that Porsche's fault?

    Brakes are the first stock system I would expect to have to modify for any track use. I don't feel this is a design flaw or mistake on the part of Porsche; the best, most bulletproof street car I have ever tracked was a '93 RS America. I don't think difficulties in street to track transition are unique to Porsche. I have heard F40 owners comment that their stock brakes fade after a few hard laps on the track. It appears that, if you want to track an F40 regularly, you need to upgrade the brakes. Ouch! (F40 owners please feel free to prove me wrong by allowing me to drive your cars).

    New systems seem to take some shaking down, and often some very expensive false starts, to make them work on the track. It's small consolation to think of oneself as a development driver, I know.

    Respectfully, Will


    Re: PCCB on on the street

    Quote:
    colorchange:

    (F40 owners please feel free to prove me wrong by allowing me to drive your cars).




    lol, thats the best line i've ever heard.

    also, i am finding that this is one of the best places to get information on the web. i'm amazed by how much everyone knows here. thats mostly why i don't say much...i'm just listening and learning.

    Re: PCCB on on the street

    Quote:
    I don't mean to twist the issues, and I certainly do not think Stephen is a wacko



    FixedWing may have a valid point on PCCB's but let's not be so quick to dismiss this wacko thing. (sorry Stephen, couldn't let it go)

    Re: PCCB on on the street

    OK WCH, I can agree with that. I really feel PCCB should hold up to DE events, never full blown racing as you suggest. You're right about the F40, first thing to go is the brakes (same with most of the Lambo's as I had to go to a 6-piston Wilwood set-up after warping the rotors).

    The language P uses now is a huge change over what was listed before. If you do a search on rennlist I think, when they changed it it created quite a furor. That is exactly the problem. While agree with your comments about tracking, P said the PCCB's were great, indestructible, ... and they're not. That's the rub (pun intended).

    Wacko

    Quote:
    FixedWing may have a valid point on PCCB's but let's not be so quick to dismiss this wacko thing.



    No offence taken GM. In fact, I would be hurt if you had accused me of being sane.

    Stephen

    Re: Back to the real topic

    Watt, here I am finding this forum for the first time and thinking what a great forum and logical well reasoned posts too! And what do I discover ? Watt spreading his sunshine again. Pictures of obese women in the doggie position? Reprimanded by the moderator? Watt you inflamed us all with this PCCB arguement at Rennlist and now you are inciting a riot over here. I think RC really has a good handle on the issue's but I disagree in that I believe that these cars should be covered by warranty for open track days, absent driver abuse. Not for side by side racing, but for safely and responsibly attempting to obtain your best lap time with reasonable parameters. My reasoning is that the GT 2 is a 195 MPH car. Porsche I'm sure is not expecting us to do 195 on our local expressways. The only safe and responsible place to use the performance Porsche sold us is at the track. Now I ruined a set of pads and a rotor on my Gt 2 at the track and Porsche did warranty it. But I can't say honestly I broke the pads and rotors in properly for ceramics or drove at a responsible pace. But the dealer worked with me this time, I wouldn't expect them to do it every time I push the car to it's extreme limit's... But I am going to become a member of this forum. Any forum that spanks Watt when he misbehaves is my kind of forum!!!!

     
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