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    Dec 21, 2005 7:08:31 PM

    SrfCity
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    "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    for an engine!"

    LA Times, Pulitzer Prize winning auto critic tests the Cayman and loves it. Read about it here:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil21dec21,0,2626333.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

    Some other quotes:

    "Where's the 911? Who cares?
    With Cayman S, Porsche puts the engine dead-center -- right where the 911's should be."

    "I contend, the company was hemmed in by its own heritage, compelled by a curious kind of logocentrism to continue the rear-engine format even if it was a pain to engineer around."

    IMO it's hard to argue some of his points.

    Dec 21, 2005 7:22:17 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: SrfCity

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    SrfCity said:
    for an engine!"

    LA Times, Pulitzer Prize winning auto critic tests the Cayman and loves it. Read about it here:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil21dec21,0,2626333.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

    Some other quotes:

    "Where's the 911? Who cares?
    With Cayman S, Porsche puts the engine dead-center -- right where the 911's should be."

    "I contend, the company was hemmed in by its own heritage, compelled by a curious kind of logocentrism to continue the rear-engine format even if it was a pain to engineer around."

    IMO it's hard to argue some of his points.



    True, but the 911 is that precisely because of its engine layout. If I wanted a mid-engine car there are many alternatives, but the funny thing is, none are really as good as the 911.

    Dec 21, 2005 7:34:12 PM

    AJVIP
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    Reply to: SrfCity

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    It makes sense that this guy is writing for the LA Times and not a real car publication....

    Dec 21, 2005 7:42:33 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: AJVIP

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Nonsense statements. I like the 911 precisely because the engine is hanging from the rear.

    Dec 21, 2005 7:58:06 PM

    Paul S in TX
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    I agree there's no need to argue--the 911 is clearly superior And I own both a Boxster S and a 997 S X51 Club Coupe (my fourth 911). Nothing like the hunkered down feel of a 911 accelerating through the apex of a corner.

    Dec 21, 2005 9:31:50 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Paul S in TX

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    I will not even react to such nonsence comments...

    Dec 21, 2005 9:34:23 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Paul S in TX

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place... *DELETED* *DELETED*

    Post deleted by MMD

    Dec 21, 2005 9:38:02 PM

    bstew
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    A mid engine 911

    Dec 21, 2005 9:40:42 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    He is solid proof that it doesnt take much to be a Pulitzer prize winning author.

    Just what is his knowledge, experience and skill level with a 911??? I suspect its minimal at best.

    Dec 21, 2005 9:41:09 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: SrfCity

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    SrfCity said:
    for an engine!"

    LA Times, Pulitzer Prize winning auto critic tests the Cayman and loves it. Read about it here:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil21dec21,0,2626333.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

    Some other quotes:

    "Where's the 911? Who cares?
    With Cayman S, Porsche puts the engine dead-center -- right where the 911's should be."

    "I contend, the company was hemmed in by its own heritage, compelled by a curious kind of logocentrism to continue the rear-engine format even if it was a pain to engineer around."

    IMO it's hard to argue some of his points.



    I want to know only ONE SINGLE thing: what car does this Pullitzer Prize Winning Auto Critic drive privately? Nothing more to say.

    Dec 21, 2005 9:42:01 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: bstew

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Gotta cause a stir to get people to read what you write.

    For example:

    Would you take a 355HP Cayman over a 355 hp 997S?

    Dec 21, 2005 9:43:32 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    no

    Dec 21, 2005 9:44:12 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: throt

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Caymans are for the Hairdressers/ladies..

    throt..

    Dec 21, 2005 9:44:51 PM

    AJVIP
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    SrfCity said:
    for an engine!"

    LA Times, Pulitzer Prize winning auto critic tests the Cayman and loves it. Read about it here:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil21dec21,0,2626333.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

    Some other quotes:

    "Where's the 911? Who cares?
    With Cayman S, Porsche puts the engine dead-center -- right where the 911's should be."

    "I contend, the company was hemmed in by its own heritage, compelled by a curious kind of logocentrism to continue the rear-engine format even if it was a pain to engineer around."

    IMO it's hard to argue some of his points.



    I want to know only ONE SINGLE thing: what car does this Pullitzer Prize Winning Auto Critic drive privately? Nothing more to say.



    Probably a Honda Civic Hybrid

    Dec 21, 2005 9:48:14 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: AJVIP

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    ajcastaneda said:
    Quote:
    RC said:


    I want to know only ONE SINGLE thing: what car does this Pullitzer Prize Winning Auto Critic drive privately? Nothing more to say.



    Probably a Honda Civic Hybrid



    I'd say more like a Kia Rio (the absolute lowest priced new car avail. on the market today)

    Dec 21, 2005 9:52:07 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    oops, re KiaRIO I mean on the US market... .
    Throt: hairdressers? LOL.

    Dec 21, 2005 10:20:11 PM

    SrfCity
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Not sure if anyone actually read the article as the link is bad but here's his arguement for mid-engine vs rear:

    "Slack your rope, 911 hangmen. Civilians may wonder what difference the placement of the engine makes. Let me explain.

    It has to do with an automobile's center of mass and the effects of acceleration. When cars accelerate - as you might charging out of a corner - the weight of the vehicle transfers rearward, and in rear-wheel-drive cars this increases traction. This is critical, because it really doesn't matter how much horsepower you have, it's how much you can put to the ground.

    Unlike front-engine sports cars - which struggle to transfer weight to the rear wheels and inevitably require a compromise in suspension setup, allowing the car to "squat" a little - the rear-engine 911 has its center of mass conveniently situated over the rear wheels. Because the car is more mechanically efficient, the engine can be made smaller and lighter, which reduces overall weight. Less weight means the car changes direction more quickly - less momentum to overcome in any direction. Lighter weight also means less wear on other parts, such as tires, brakes, clutches. A positive spiral of causation.

    And yet, for all of these advantages, rear-engine placement is not optimum. The reason: handling. For decades, rear-engined 911s - and Chevy Corvairs and VW Beetles, for that matter - handled awkwardly, like a rubber mallet, weighted heavily on the extreme end. This imbalance made the 911s tricky to control at the limit and occasionally downright spiritual, particularly the turbocharged monsters of the late 1980s. Bumper sticker seen on a 911 whale-tail: "My other car is a tow truck."

    In the mid-1990s, with the advent of traction control, stability control and various brake-bias interventions, as well as radical suspension redesigns, Porsche tamed the 911, but never quite quelled the car's antsiness. Especially on cold tires, the 911 can feel snappish and prone to oversteer, and little driver mistakes can invoke the guardian angels of the stability control.

    None of this is news to Porsche. But by the 1990s, I contend, the company was hemmed in by its own heritage, compelled by a curious kind of logocentrism to continue the rear-engine format even if it was a pain to engineer around.

    THE optimal arrangement is, of course, mid-engine, like the Ferrari F430, Ford GT, as well as Porsche's own Carrera GT and Boxster. Now the center of mass is dead amidships, so that the car pivots, swivels and gimbals from the middle. The Cayman S - with its 291-hp engine, optional 19-inch gumballs and its patently Porsche genetic code - feels like the 911 the company might have built if it hadn't been so enamored of its own rear-engined reflection."

    Hmm, makes sense to me and I'm a 911 owner

    Here's a correct link and pic from the article:

    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1

    Dec 21, 2005 10:33:45 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: SrfCity

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    I think it makes sense too. I have no doubt that the mid-engine placement is "superior" from an ultimate perforance standpoint.

    However, there is something about driving a 911 that causes me to embrace its faults.

    I love the feeling of inducing oversteer by late trail-braking into a corner and then catching it before it spins by gradually applying the throttle and power-sliding out of the exit of the corner and onto the straight. It's a blast and I don't care if it's not as fast as a more tidy line with a Cayman - it's just more fun

    Some might say that such a technique could be used on a Cayman, but there are two problems with that:

    1. The mid-engined placement doesn't give nearly the same margin for error - the tails snaps around much more suddenly when provoked.

    2. If used with PSM, the brakes and fuel-cutoff will interrupt all the fun on the exit. If used with PSM off, the limited traction of one-wheel-drive (no LSD) and less weight on the tire(s) won't allow much in the way of forward propulsion.

    Dec 21, 2005 10:36:25 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: SrfCity

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    SrfCity said:
    THE optimal arrangement is, of course, mid-engine, like the Ferrari F430, Ford GT, as well as Porsche's own Carrera GT and Boxster.



    Has somebody actually checked the weight distribution on the F430? Not far away from the 997. Mid-engined? I don't know.

    BTW: I would NOT choose a 355 HP Cayman over a 355 HP 997 for ONE SINGLE reason: I need the rear seats and the rear space. Otherwise, I wouldn't have anything against getting a Cayman. Honestly. But since Porsche never developped the Cayman for racing, not even club racing, I doubt this would be the right car for me. But of course, as a 997 Turbo waiter, I may be the wrong person to ask.

    Dec 21, 2005 10:56:25 PM

    Silver Bullet
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I think it makes sense too. I have no doubt that the mid-engine placement is "superior" from an ultimate perforance standpoint.

    However, there is something about driving a 911 that causes me to embrace its faults.

    I love the feeling of inducing oversteer by late trail-braking into a corner and then catching it before it spins by gradually applying the throttle and power-sliding out of the exit of the corner and onto the straight. It's a blast and I don't care if it's not as fast as a more tidy line with a Cayman - it's just more fun

    Some might say that such a technique could be used on a Cayman, but there are two problems with that:

    1. The mid-engined placement doesn't give nearly the same margin for error - the tails snaps around much more suddenly when provoked.

    2. If used with PSM, the brakes and fuel-cutoff will interrupt all the fun on the exit. If used with PSM off, the limited traction of one-wheel-drive (no LSD) and less weight on the tire(s) won't allow much in the way of forward propulsion.



    I couldn't have said it better.

    Dec 21, 2005 11:49:33 PM

    chili
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    Reply to: Silver Bullet

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    If I can't afford a 911 I would buy a Cayman or a Boxster. All fabulous cars IMHO.

    Dec 22, 2005 12:40:02 AM

    luko
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    Reply to: throt

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    throt said:
    Caymans are for the Hairdressers/ladies..



    That's the kind of comment I expect from 12 year olds!

    Dec 22, 2005 12:51:30 AM

    bstew
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    Reply to: chili

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    chili said:
    If I can't afford a 911 I would buy a Cayman or a Boxster. All fabulous cars IMHO.



    Ditto

    Dec 22, 2005 12:59:50 AM

    AS
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    Reply to: bstew

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    rear engine = power slides = more fun.
    furthermore, it has rear seats that i occasionally need.
    doesn't bother me one bit if it's not the fastest, best handling car out there. it's got everything i'd want (for now at least) in one tidy & fun little package. that's all that matters.

    Dec 22, 2005 3:25:30 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: luko

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    luko said:
    Quote:
    throt said:
    Caymans are for the Hairdressers/ladies..



    That's the kind of comment I expect from 12 year olds!


    Nah, I believe he was just jokin' in the spirit of the thread. Nobody would "laugh" at the Boxster (the "Porsche with Panties") or the Cayman ("gay caveman") if they both had 355 hp or more.

    Dec 22, 2005 3:25:59 AM

    Steve L.
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    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    You 911 guys are right, rear engine is the way to go. Porsche screwed up with the Carrera GT, they really should call it the Cayman GT. What were they thinking? Mid-engine super car?

    Dec 22, 2005 3:36:33 AM

    SVNSVN
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    Reply to: AJVIP

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Quote:
    ajcastaneda said:
    It makes sense that this guy is writing for the LA Times and not a real car publication....




    Agree!

    LA Times, NY Times... rubbish.

    Dec 22, 2005 3:39:23 AM

    AS
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    Reply to: Steve L.

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    i've got nothin against mid-engine supercars - it's the best track setup. i think porsche should keep 911 where it is, & launch a CGT-derived line (at ferrari/gallardo pricing).

    Dec 22, 2005 4:24:36 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Silver Bullet

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    What's nice about the Cayman is it's an obviously excellent car so it blurs the popular distinction between the 911 and the Boxster. A dipsh*t at lunch the other day said the Boxster is "not a real Porsche." Gonna be harder for the deluded to see Porsche's model line as lopsided.

    Dec 22, 2005 9:33:43 PM

    OCEAN
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: "LET'S be clear. The rear of the car is no place...

    Mid engine is really the best ... Porsche must be careful if it does a mid engine car and does not hold it back it will out preform a 911 the CGT is a perfect example of that . Back in collage I had a 914-6 that would out preform 911's from the same year in the corners it was ridicules for its time .
     
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