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    PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    I have a Carrera-PASM, 18in wheels (all deliberate). Enjoy the car greatly ---- happy to have the PASM, due to the less than European roads here.
    It would be very informative to have comments from the most experienced out there, as to the good and any ususual/ problematic aspects of the PASM.
    We have Pete Stout and other Excellence writers noting the lateral movement (bushings?) of the PASM-car (body, NOT tire sliding) in a corner where there is a bump/irregular surface; the unpredictable/ unexpected/ different (you choose) nature of the PASM-car's response to an irregular surface, that may limit your commitment under certain circumstances; Autocar's preference for the Carrera or S with sports (non-PASM) for the above reasons.
    The other leading Porsche UK mags (Porsche,GT,911,Mainly--- whatever) have made NO MENTION of such matters.

    So how has the PASM behaved on the track, highspeed public raods, and how have you been 'coached' to best use PASM, and why does Rohrl not notice this 'movement' (not sliding) at the rear (CURIOUS!- he noted to Stout that he would do a test drive on the N.Ring with and without PASM to explore the effect --(no word on this since).

    Looking forward to a good exchange on this! Cheers ---

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Never had a chance to drive a PASM car on track and at a guess I would imagine that its very solid/rigid response to bumps would not cause a problem. On a bumpy UK road all I know is that you lose some of the extra confidence you might have in a non PASM car fearing it is about to hop/skip across the road into a) an oncoming car or b) a bush.

    The difference may be minute but it was enough for me to sense and that was before I ever read any journalists views.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Thanks JJBlade,
    One guy on another thread chortled at my rather similar comment to yours. This after I experienced a unique bit of road: smooth, on an otherwise estimated 140-150kph max corner, that was also strongly undulating (with undulations of different "wavelength"), that at 120-130kph made me say that my Acura TL 6spd-sports suspension-18in matching wheels sedan(think your Accord Type R) was more comfortably fast -- than the mighty Carrera. Which car I otherwise really love. The Carrera did NOT like that bit of road ----- I might get used to its reactions eventually!

    He seemed mad with me, and said I needed driving courses.

    I do not see it to be heretical to say that certain roads (combinations of bumps, undulations) MAY be handled better by a sports sedan with greater compliance or larger wheel movement than the mighty Carrera. There are certainly bits of road here, with 'expansion joints' etc that cause the Carrera to really bang and bump (I avoid these roads), that are swallowed by the Acura without much if any discomfort.

    Merci KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Have PASM on my 987S. COMPLETELY agree with the described behaviour of PASM (Normal) in rough or undulating corners. I'm getting more used to it, but it does feel like you're going to hop off, which limits my committment, as you say.

    If I know there's going to be that sort of road ahead, and I'm pressing on, I stick it into Sport PASM mode, which seems to handle things better without getting jumpy.

    I'd still probably stick with the PASM setup. It's a good all-rounder, and you do get used to it.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:
    Thanks JJBlade,
    One guy on another thread chortled at my rather similar comment to yours. This after I experienced a unique bit of road: smooth, on an otherwise estimated 140-150kph max corner, that was also strongly undulating (with undulations of different "wavelength"), that at 120-130kph made me say that my Acura TL 6spd-sports suspension-18in matching wheels sedan(think your Accord Type R) was more comfortably fast -- than the mighty Carrera. Which car I otherwise really love. The Carrera did NOT like that bit of road ----- I might get used to its reactions eventually!

    He seemed mad with me, and said I needed driving courses.

    I do not see it to be heretical to say that certain roads (combinations of bumps, undulations) MAY be handled better by a sports sedan with greater compliance or larger wheel movement than the mighty Carrera. There are certainly bits of road here, with 'expansion joints' etc that cause the Carrera to really bang and bump (I avoid these roads), that are swallowed by the Acura without much if any discomfort.

    Merci KiwiCanuck



    LOL, of course a sedan will swallow bumps better than a sports car. That's what sedans do. Sports cars feel firm and, oh my gosh, sometimes they bounce around and slide through turns with a 5-6% slip angle. I have driven PASM equipped cars on the track and on the road and, in sport mode, find their handling to be outstanding on all surfaces.

    You stated that your Accura, on a certain stretch of road, is more competant than a 997 with PASM. And I called you on it. In the hands of a trained driver the 997 will always be more competant on all surfaces than any sport sedan, period.

    With a little training and a little track time I'm sure you will begin to see how much more you can trust your 911. It's not going to go sliding into oncoming traffic or a bush. It may jounce around over bumps a bit but you can rest assured that when it comes to traction the 911 has no equal.

    Now about all these magazine articles you keep refering too. I had an interesting conversation with Doc Bundy, a guy who has won the 24 hours of Le Mans, at my recent PDE. He was working for Porsche at Daytonna, showing off the 996 turbo S to the press. According to Doc, most of these guys are the worst drivers on the planet. He says there are maybe two good drivers in the whole automotive press. They may be good writers, but according to Doc, among others, they're not good drivers. I'm inclined to believe Doc and take everything I read in the press with a grain of salt. You're inclined to believe the press and not Walter Rohrl? That in itself is laughable.

    Now I am not mad at you but you do need driving courses to fully appreciate the abilities of the 911 (we all do). Until then your comparing the 911 to an Acura will always be laughable. So, please, for those of us who've had a chance to talk with and learn from the Gods of Porsche racing, give us a break. Merci.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    @Aerosmith: My, that's a high horse you're sitting on.

    I think you're being a bit harsh. Maybe you haven't experienced this particular situation in a PASM car - we're talking about slow-speed (50mph ish?) reasonably tight bend with changing camber and/or bumps with PASM in Normal mode.

    Your 'Sports cars just are more bumpy' reasoning doesn't explain why PASM in Sport mode gives greater perception of body control and traction on this specific sort of surface than PASM in Normal mode.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    @Aerosmith: My, that's a high horse you're sitting on.

    I think you're being a bit harsh. Maybe you haven't experienced this particular situation in a PASM car - we're talking about slow-speed (50mph ish?) reasonably tight bend with changing camber and/or bumps with PASM in Normal mode.

    Your 'Sports cars just are more bumpy' reasoning doesn't explain why PASM in Sport mode gives greater perception of body control and traction on this specific sort of surface than PASM in Normal mode.



    Yes, I have experienced wobbling in normal mode. That's why I don't use it except for driving in town. Certainly the shocks in normal mode have inadequate damping and when PASM tries to firm itself up it's an awkward shift. That's why I personally use sport mode for spirited driving (heck, I use it for just about all driving). That's why there is a sport mode in the first place. And frankly the sport mode is more akin to the much loved -20 sport suspension. Sport mode is the mode the car was intended to be drven in.

    But to say that in some situations an Acura is more stable at speed than a 911 is subjective hogwash. Further, Kiwi is comparing apples to oranges when he compares an Accura with sport suspension to a PASM car in normal mode. It seems to me that the fair comparison would be to a PASM car in sport mode. The failing isn't the car's. The failing is not selecting the proper suspension mode for the task at hand.

    The title of this thread refers to track days and PDEs, events where normal mode will never even be used. Even the owner's manual states that sport mode is for the track and spirited driving. So then, how do PASM handling characteristics in normal mode relate to track days and PDEs? They don't.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    AeroSmith said ( and my comments are in capitals):
    "LOL, of course a sedan will swallow bumps better than a sports car. That's what sedans do. Sports cars feel firm and, oh my gosh, sometimes they bounce around and slide through turns with a 5-6% slip angle. I have driven PASM equipped cars on the track and on the road and, in sport mode, find their handling to be outstanding on all surfaces. (SO THIS MEANS YOU HAVE TO LEAVE IT IN SPORTS ON UNKNOWN ROADS IN CASE YOU MEET A PIECE OF ROAD LIKE I DESCRIBED AND ALSO ANOTHER COLLEAGUE ABOVE, WHO AGREED WITH ME)

    You stated that your Accura, on a certain stretch of road, is more competant than a 997 with PASM. And I called you on it. In the hands of a trained driver (EXCUSE ME FOR APPARENTLY NOT BEING ---SEE ABOVE HOWEVER------ THE ROADS HERE ARE TOO ROUGH FOR ME TO RUN IN SPORTS ALL THE TIME!WHY IS THERE A SELECTOR?) the 997 will always be more competa?nt on all (ALL? ---- NONSENSE -- REMEMBER THE DAKAR 911? IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE WHY DID PORSCHE REDESIGN THE CAR FOR THE DAKAR) surfaces than any sport sedan, period.(I DO FIND YOU A MIGHT TEDIOUS ---- IF I WAS ANYWHERE ELSE BUT ON THIS FINE WEB I MIGHT SAY YOU ARE A little ARROGANT ---BUT I SHOULDN'T DO THAT HERE, AND SO I REFRAIN)

    With a little training and a little track time I'm sure you will begin to see how much more you can trust your 911.( I AM NOWHERE NEAR A PDE AND WILL NOT BE FOR 99% OF THE LIFE OF MY 997 OR MYSELF --- I HAVE TO RELY ON OTHER'S OPINIONS, BUT I DO NOT FIND YOU VERY HELPFUL. THANKS SO MUCH FOR TRYING TO BE------) It's not going to go sliding into oncoming traffic or a bush(I KNOW THAT! I DO NOT FIND IT PLEASURABLE IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE!!!). It may jounce around over bumps a bit (I KNOW THAT ---BUT I DO NOT FIND IT PLEASURABLE ---AND IF I HAD MILES OF ROADD LIKE THE ABOVE STRETCH TO DRIVE ON AT SPEED OFTEN, I WOULD TAKE THE ACURA ON THAT TRIP!)but you can rest assured that when it comes to traction the 911 has no equal.( MAY BE! BUT THE ACURA IS MUCH MORE COMPOSED/LESS STRESSED/BOTHERS ME AND MY WIFE LESS OVER A VERY FEW ODD BITS OF ROADS LIKE THAT I DESCRIBED! AND THAT IS FACT AND NOT ME -----IT IS THE LOVELY AND INCREASINGLY ADMIRED 997 I AM VERY HAPPY TO OWN, THAT HAS A FEW WEAKNESSES. LIKE IT OR NOT -----)

    Now about all these magazine articles you keep refering too.( SORRY TO ANNOY YOU ----) I had an interesting conversation with Doc Bundy, a guy who has won the 24 hours of Le Mans, at my recent PDE. He was working for (SO THAT MAKES HIM OBJECTIVE?) the 996 turbo S to the press. According to Doc, (YOU HAVE STILL NOT TOLD US WHETHER YOU OR BUNDY NOTICE THE MOCEMNT OF THE CAR ON ITS SUPENSION IN MIDST CORNER ----- YES OR NO?)most of these guys are the worst drivers on the planet (MAYBE ---SOUNDS LIKE A WILD GENERALZATION TO ME----- AT PORSCHE MAGS THE GUYS APPEAR, FROM THEIR REMARKS, NOT BE IDIOTS, BUT PORSCHE ENTHUSIASTS OF LONG STANDING). He says there are maybe two good drivers in the whole automotive press (WELL ------). They may be good writers, but according to Doc, among others, they're not good drivers. I'm inclined to believe Doc and take everything (HERE WE GO AGAIN ----- YOU WILL ACCEPT NO CRITICISM OF THE 997 ----- YOUR ATTITUDE IS VERY DISAPPOINTING. THE UK GT-PORSCHE MAG, ONE OF THE BEST, THIS MONTH SUGGESTS THAT THE BEST 997 IS AN S, WITH SPORTS SUSPENSION(-30MM) AND CERAMIC BRAKES --- AS THE PASM HAS LESS CONTROL AND RESPONSIVNESS, AS I AND MY FRIEND ABOVE ALSO NOTES --- IT MUST UPSET YOU THAT YOU CANNOT HAVE THE BEST 997, BUT YOU AND I SEEM TO BE STUCK WITH A WONDERFUL CAR THAT IS NOT THE BEST 997) I read in the press with a grain of salt. You're inclined to believe the press and not Walter Rohrl? ( I WANT TO HEAR WHAT ROHRL HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS MATTER OF THE PASM, NOW NOTED BY MANY DRIVERS. THE NORTH RING IS KNOWN TO PRODUCE CARS THAT ARE NOT ALWAYS A PLEASURE ON OTHER NATION/REGIONAL ROADS) That in itself is laughable.(I AM NOT LAUGHABLE ------ ) NOW ON TO ANOTHER CORRESPONDANT ----

    Cheers KiwiCanuck


    WOOPS YOU ARE NOT FINISHED ----
    Now I am not mad at you but you do need driving courses to fully appreciate (THANKS ----) the abilities of the 911 (we all do). Until then your comparing the 911 to an Acura will always be laughable. (THANKS AGAIN HOW ABOUT THIS ---- ON SNOWY ICE ROADS THE TL IS MUCH SAFER AND FASTER THAN THE RWD 997) with and learn from the Gods (--EXCUSE ME! NOW WE ARE INTO GOD) of Porsche racing, give us a break ( I HAVE REALLY HAD ENOUGH OF THIS ---- YOUR LEETER IS THE ONLY EXTREME ONE i HAVE READ ON THIS FINE SITE ---A LITTLE INTEMPERATE). Merci.
    NOW I WILL SIGN OFF

    CHEERS KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    AERsMITH SAID" (VERY BRIEF COMMENTS HTIS TIME)

    Yes, I have experienced wobbling in normal mode. That's why I don't use it except for driving in town. Certainly the shocks in normal mode have inadequate damping ((AH! A FAULT?)and when PASM tries to firm itself up it's an awkward 9WHY WITH GOD-LIKE DESIGNERS?)shift. That's why I personally use sport mode for spirited driving (heck, I use it for just about all driving (NOT ON OUR ROADS YOU WOULDN'T ---MOST PORSCHE MAG TESTS HAVE ACKNOWLFEGED THAT THE NORMAL SETTING IS THE BEST FOR ALL BUT TRACK! WHERE DO YIU LIVE --I SHOULD MOVE THERE -- ). That's why there is a sport mode in the first place. And frankly the sport mode is more akin to the much loved -20 sport suspension (NOT ACCORDING TO THOSE WHO HAVE DRIVEN THE PASM AND THE -30MM). Sport mode is the mode the car was intended to be drven in (WHAT?).

    But to say that in some situations an Acura is more stable)I DID NOT SAY THAT--READ MY WORDS AGAIN) at speed than a 911 is subjective hogwash)NOW NOW---). Further, Kiwi is comparing apples to oranges when he compares an Accura with sport suspension to a PASM car in normal mode. It seems to me that the fair comparison would be to a PASM car in sport mode(NO NO NO -- YOU OBVIUOSLY HAVE NOT DRIVEN THE ACURA). The failing isn't the car's. The failing is not selecting the proper suspension mode for the task at hand( WHAT IF THE 'TASK' OCCURS ONCE EVERY 100KM, ON A ROAD THAT REALLY DEMANDS NORMAL THE REST OF THE TIME?

    The title of this thread refers to track days and PDEs) NO IT DOESN'T --READ MY ORIGINAL MEMO ---I SAID ALSO HIGHSPEED PUBLIC ROADS) the owner's manual states that sport mode is for the track and spirited driving. So then, how do PASM handling characteristics in normal mode relate to track days and PDEs? They don't. (I REST MY CASE---HAD ENOUGH OF THIS --- PLEASE BE A LITTEL MORE OPOEN TO MOILD BUT CAREFUL COMMENTS ON THE CARS WE ALL ENJOY, AND DO NOT SAY THE Pasmn IS FLAWLESS)


    cHEERS KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    I had a 996 and now have a 997S I can say that the 997 is a better handling car on all road surfaces.

    Track miles driven in the 997 with PASM this year at minimum have been 900+.
    I have not experienced any strange handling chacteristics that others talk about nor the hoping bobing front end mentioned in another thread.
    PASM on or off the car handles quite well, and in harder high speed driving a harder shock algorithm automaticly kicks in when the normal mode is selected.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Trundle, that's a very interesting graphic. I haven't seen that before. Thanks for posting. Is that correct? PASM in sport mode can have stiffer damping than the -20 sport suspension?

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    In my "hopping front end syndrome" post a few days ago
    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=166144&an=0&page=1#166144
    I mention the bobbing issue that occurs on many of our freeway overpasses that are curved and long. I have since switched to "sport PASM mode" and the issue has gone away. Completely. I assume it will come back if I switch back to normal mode.
    While I'm pleased with normal PASM in town, I'm quite disappointed with this strange bobbing/shifting characteristic that seems more of a software than a hardware issue.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    vtach88 - I too have experienced this w/ my C2S. When driving on the highway, at times the car feels ... bubbly or weavy. In those sections of the highway, I turn the PASM to sports mode, and it feels as if the car just tightens up and it no longer wonders.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said: (SO THIS MEANS YOU HAVE TO LEAVE IT IN SPORTS ON UNKNOWN ROADS IN CASE YOU MEET A PIECE OF ROAD LIKE I DESCRIBED AND ALSO ANOTHER COLLEAGUE ABOVE, WHO AGREED WITH ME)



    Exactly. You can't run in Sport ALL the time on the sort of roads we have. And if you hit the sort of dodgy curve that we've been talking about unexpectedly, PASM doesn't seem to 'toughen up' hard enough or quick enough. I think there might be a conflict of interests on it's part - First, the road is rougher, so it should go softer, but then we need better body control, so it should go harder!

    I have the sneaky feeling that in these conditions it chooses to go softer, and hence makes the situation worse! (Or at least feels more unstable and wobbly)

    Be interesting to know what others think! Would it be better with PCCB? (Less unsprung weight).

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Now if I read Trundle's graph correctly, PASM is sport mode can give about the same damper force as the stock suspension -no doubt it does this on rough surfaces. In fact at low damper speeds it appears to give an even softer ride than the stock suspension. If folks are driving the stock suspension in England and Canada without problems why wouldn't PASM in sport mode be a viable everyday driving setup? Indeed, many in England rave about the very stiff -20 suspension. PASM in sport mode can be stiffer or softer than that suspension depending on road surface.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Thanks Trundle997s, the graph is very interesting, and i presume a Porsche product. It does not indicate , and cannot show the occasions when, with undulations (sizes comparable to the wheelbase and more)of varying sizes, the dampers switch from the extremes of PASM normal over short distances (maybe a few 100m), and even from wheel to wheel. I'm glad these conditions are so rare you have not had that experience. And I have only one such piece of road like that!-=---- What about the feeling of the car sliding on its 'bushings' in the middle of a corner that some excellent testors have noted? Thansk KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    wtsnet said:

    "Exactly. You can't run in Sport ALL the time on the sort of roads we have. And if you hit the sort of dodgy curve that we've been talking about unexpectedly, PASM doesn't seem to 'toughen up' hard enough or quick enough. I think there might be a conflict of interests on it's part - First, the road is rougher, so it should go softer, but then we need better body control, so it should go harder!

    I have the sneaky feeling that in these conditions it chooses to go softer, and hence makes the situation worse! (Or at least feels more unstable and wobbly)"

    Thanks so much for that confirmation of behaviour --- we will all learn to live with and litrerally adjust the normal-sports settings.
    But this possibiloity of getting caught in 'normal' on a bit of raod you are REALLY driving hard on, and which you do not know really well, is why some Brits are prefering the -30mm sports. Do you get that now friend AeroSmith? -----the graph we have above above shows the extremes of each mode, and not a time-sequence of the damping foces provided as the car goes over a highly variable surface (variable accelaeration, variable length of undulation)and which also varies from wheel to wheel. Please read the letters around this place and you will see what we are talking about. But as you can drive in 'sports all the time (pretty smoothish roads we surmise)you have no worries ---so relax and enjoy!
    Cheers


    KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Thanks to everyone below for the interesting responses and comments! ( I started this thread).This has been very useful, and it will help many of us drive the PASM better, and accept the little quirks that can occur.

    The one thing that no one has yet commented upon, is the 'movement/sliding' of the car on its "bushings/suspension' (NOT the tires sliding) in a corner once the weight transfer to the back begins, and empahsozed if there is a bump at this stage.(Stout, Editor of Excellence talks of this) ---- I think that I can sense this --- but I am not sure. Anyone with thoughts on this last point?

    Any other insights most welcome! Cheers

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Quote:
    AeroSmith said:
    Now if I read Trundle's graph correctly, PASM is sport mode can give about the same damper force as the stock suspension -no doubt it does this on rough surfaces. In fact at low damper speeds it appears to give an even softer ride than the stock suspension. If folks are driving the stock suspension in England and Canada without problems why wouldn't PASM in sport mode be a viable everyday driving setup? Indeed, many in England rave about the very stiff -20 suspension. PASM in sport mode can be stiffer or softer than that suspension depending on road surface.


    As you say, depending on road surface. The road type and quality can vary immensely even within a small place like the UK. I know you feel that permanently being in Sport mode is the way to go, but this would get very tiresome on the roads in Dorset. Here we have to drive on country roads that are narrow (ie not enough room to allow any errors or slides, and you have to be very precise with your steering) twisty, undulating, bumpy, covered with bad repairs, pot holes and slippery drain covers). They are roads that you want to drive enthusiastically, but aren't smooth enough to drive in Sport mode 100% of the time.

    I guess the people with stock suspension just don't have a problem because they don't have a choice of Normal or Sport, they don't have a problem because the suspension softens up when it should become firmer. It's not the general behaviour of Sport/Normal we have a problem with, that's fine. It's the behaviour in very specific circumstances in Normal mode.

    If you haven't experienced the sort of road conditions we are referring to, then I guess you're lucky.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    See the threads below for some example photos of the roads round here.

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=99761&page=&fpart=7&vc=1

    Particularly the last photo. That's a 2-way road! OK, maybe one of the narrower ones, but... Also note the comments by Ente of the body movement.

    And:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=116307&page=&fpart=8&vc=1

    First pic is the sort of road we'd look to be doing 60-70 mph on in accommodating twisties. All these shots are pretty typical of UK country back-roads.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Hello wts net, but I could not find ther comments by Ente on the body movement--or were you 'joking'? If it is there could you locate it as a quote, and reply with that? It was very loing as a file and i had to give up ----

    Thanks KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Certainly! From the first thread, page 9.

    Quote:
    Ente said:(in another thread)
    Generally the car feels more responsive with the sports chrono active. Except for heavy city traffic, I don't want to miss it anymore. Accelerating onto a motorway or overtaking without sports chrono mode seems to miss OOMPH. In addition, I was surprised to find that the more challenging the road became, the more I was tempted to flip the PASM switch into the active mode. The body movement on these hilly, narrow, British C roads at 50+ mph is fairly significant, which I could feel in my own car and observe in WTSnet's Boxster who was leading the group. Despite my original perception that sports mode PASM would be a disadvantage on bad roads for reasons of compromised road contact, the sheer reduction in body roll/twist by the sports PASM setting made for a much more controlled feeling.


    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Kiwi: I totally understand what you are saying as I have experienced the same in my 997S with 19" wheels and PASM. To be honest the 1st time I felt this characteristic of the car I was a bit uncomfortable. I wondered if there something wrong with the car. Despite the fact that I did not feel unsafe I have to confess my 996C4S did not make me as uncomfortable doing the same cornering at the same speed. Needless to say the 997S was more stable but just different than anything I have ever driven before. I never thought I would lose control in the 997S but I was not sure what the car was going to do next. The body had no roll and the tires were glued to the track but the steering wheel felt so different. The more I drove it the more comfortable I became with the car. The 997S feels like a race car in so many ways and yet you know there is a point the car might disobey and you might pay a hefty price. In hard cornering the steering wheel acts like a race car which was something I did not feel in the 996C4S. At any rate, I think you will find the high and lows with your car as your personal relationhsip with the car grows. 997 is an awsome car as long as our expectations are reasonable.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Thanks edz61,
    I am overall now very comfortable with the car; my desire for this thread was to share experiences and learn from them. It has been excellent ----- The surprises I get from the car's behaviour are quite rare (only mischievous roads with changing sizes of undulations, when the PASM (normal)is getting mixed signals).

    But ---- do you also sense the movement of the body (not tires), as some displacament of the bushings occur in the middle of corners if a little bump is driven over? I asked that specific and different question above, a few replys away. It bothers Excellence staff, and I THINK I know what they mean. What I felt does not lower my confidence as I KNOW it is not the car sliding, but it is 'different'. I am used to cars having little idiosyncracies so I am 'understanding'. Why is no one else commenting on this latter behaviour? and why is the great Rohrl not aware of the body's movement?

    Thanks KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Quote:
    KiwiCanuck said:
    But ---- do you also sense the movement of the body (not tires), as some displacament of the bushings occur in the middle of corners if a little bump is driven over?
    Thanks KiwiCanuck



    Kiwi, when the road has some roughness and/or uneven surfaces, the body will have that kind of a motion no matter what you are driving. IMO for a stiff chassis and suspension, this is only natural. Do not let the sensation in the body concern you too much, unless you over do it when pulling serious G's the car will not go anywhere despite the way it feels. I have heard some people saying the 997 has more oversteer than the 996. I disagree I think the steering in the 997 is more responsive than the 996. Again this is my opinion. Bottom line my friend I am no car expert but I can hold my own for the way I drive. I believe that what you are experiencing is totally legitimate and perfectly normal. You are not doing anything wrong and neither is your car. There is some mild growing pains and a little bit of getting used to each other's attitude but at the end you and the 997 have nothing but love for each other.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Hmm what about a C4 or C4S both with PASM - would the extra stability of 4WD sort things out?

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?


    KiwiCanuck said:
    But ---- do you also sense the movement of the body (not tires), as some displacament of the bushings occur in the middle of corners if a little bump is driven over?
    Thanks KiwiCanuck

    To which edz61 said:
    Kiwi, when the road has some roughness and/or uneven surfaces, the body will have that kind of a motion no matter what you are driving. IMO for a stiff chassis and suspension, this is only natural. Do not let the sensation in the body concern you too much"

    Thanks edz61, Well thanks ----- I am not letting it bother me, believe me. If no one else notices this body 'sliding' effect that EXCELLENCE talks of, it must be 'slight'. I respect the 911 heritage enormously, and as this is my 1st Porsche, after 7 years of strong-fast driving with the NSX, I want to be sensitive to my new beauty. I think I am, as no else had raised this thread on the PASM ------ which has revealed a few 'interesting' behaviours in the replies above. GREAT e-MAILS GUYS!

    The last car I had with this interesting body motion was a 1929 Dodge I drove as a Grad student to our radar site in 1965:NZ. It had wooden spoked wheels. Because of its large size and fairly low CofG, I found that once it had settled on its 'bump-stop' at the outside rear wheel, it was capable of very high cornering speeds. Quite as good as the new cars of the day ---- Lotus-Cortinas. So after that, the 'movement' of the 997-PASM is insignificant.

    Enjoy winter driving guys. Here the snow is packed down in places (nice driving on that as it has quite high grip, although the sheet ice is not desirable in the 997. Conti 8--whatever are good.Snow /ice driving means that you can be at the limit of adhesion at quite modest speeds, and it is the most interesting time of the year to drive a car in the Canadian proaires. It foces you to be very sensitive to the car and its movemnet ----- maybe that, along with their roads, is why the Finnish drivers are so good at Rally WRC and also F1.

    Cheers KiwiCanuck

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Read through the article linked in the thread on the PCA Club Coupe Article found in the Feb 06 Excellence. They said that they didn't find the anomaly in the 06 and meantioned a "cure" of rotating the bushings 90 degrees in the suspension (flip flops the soft and hard sides of the bushings to alleviate the sway/lurch issues noted in the earlier press reports on PASM)

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Quote:
    Paul S in TX said:
    Read through the article linked in the thread on the PCA Club Coupe Article found in the Feb 06 Excellence. They said that they didn't find the anomaly in the 06 and meantioned a "cure" of rotating the bushings 90 degrees in the suspension (flip flops the soft and hard sides of the bushings to alleviate the sway/lurch issues noted in the earlier press reports on PASM)



    I just read this article myself.

    From EXCELLENCE:
    Quote:
    As the realization that the 2006 Club Coupe's handling is nothing short of incredible filters in, another realization comes up: This 997 has PASM. It's a system Excellence and Autocar have pointedly criticized in 2005 997s. Our concern revolves around a disturbing mid-corner lurch in the rear end of PASM-equipped 997s-something that's just not there in this car.



    Yep, it's not there in my 2006 CS-X51 either.

    And more from EXCELLENCE:
    Quote:
    Then we realize this is the first 2006 997 with PASM that we've driven. PAG will probably never admit a change has been made, but we suspect a revision to the rear suspension bushings. Olaf Manthey, a well respected Porsche tuner based in at the Nurburgring, says that the 997's PASM "lurch" can be eliminated by turning selected rear suspension bushings--meant to be hard in one direction and soft in another--90 degrees. Porsche's solution is probably a better fix. We'll need to spend more time in 2006 997Ss--but, for the time being, our reservations about PASM and 997s appear to be obsolete.



    This may be why I don't sense anything wrong in my 2006's PASM handling characteristics. I guess it's just a 2005 thing.

    KiwiCanuck, I'm sorry. I now realize that we're driving two different PASM equiped cars and that the problem you describe has been eliminated from my '06.

    Re: PASM --------- characteristics --- PDE/track days?

    Ricer talking ......

    With regard to general electronic intervention (be it suspension or otherwise)....

    Until my 2S arrives I have owned a Skyline for 7 years. That thing is as computer controlled as they get.

    Initially magazines referred to how big it was and how smaller jap cars were so much faster on the tight twisty roads.

    My answer to that is that you just have to learn the way in which the computers work. When you have worked it out computer assistance is fantastic. Seven years ago, I could not have done 120mph sideways power slides. But now I know exactly what the computers do for me. And its just great! I will really miss that car and I so hope my 997S provides as much fun!! (This single point is my biggest concern!)

    I wouldn't have wanted my 997 without PASM. To my mind PASM was one of the big selling points for the 997!!!

    Only problem is that I've become a bit accustomed to the assistance I receive. I am used to having rear wheels that steer into my skid. And rear wheel drive that becomes 4 wheel if it needs to.

    Hope I don't die in my 911!

    ...Add

     
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